Resolved 32Red vs Joseph3 - expensive mistake

[Casinomeister]

Exactly why the player should take them to court and absolutely destroy them. The casino world isn't the real world. In the real world a company doesn't get to make, enforce and execute the law.

Feeling pretty bold eh?

 

[spintee]

Unfortunately it isn't so "easy peasy"

Please read my post and try to understand what I'm saying before passing it off with euphemisms.

If the OP won the 25k with the money he shouldn't have had in the first place - he should not be awarded the winnings.

ho ho, hold on a sec, who said that he won he won with the money he not meant to have? Unless you was the chat host who spoke to him and told him it was only 100% bonus, Even if that was the case and only 100% (going by rules on site) and the cs did f%uk up than at least share half the blame,

32 red is a good site but I stooped playing there a while ago after changing a few rules, Please note that not many of us no about these new rules and regs coming, But can asure you tha casinos have known a log time, Have we been informed? No not till last minute, Im not talkig a bout 32 red in the last line but believe me there's been some big changes since the rle was anoused and any1 correct me if wrong

(thats not correct me on spelling I no its terrible)

 

[asadzareef89]

Exactly why the player should take them to court and absolutely destroy them. The casino world isn't the real world. In the real world a company doesn't get to make, enforce and execute the law.

Actually u are a bit off there, in real world all the companies do have their own terms and if u don't like them take ur business elsewhere so if u still do business with them they can enforce their terms as and when they are broken(My opinion, could be right or wrong)

 

[Patrick123]

Actually u are a bit off there, in real world all the companies do have their own terms and if u don't like them take ur business elsewhere so if u still do business with them they can enforce their terms as and when they are broken(My opinion, could be right or wrong)

Completely wrong. The law decides what terms are applicable to consumer contracts. Don't be a victim.

 

[Patrick123]

Feeling pretty bold eh?

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

 

[spintee]

Feeling pretty bold eh?

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

I think we we all going bold ( I know that was not ment to be as losing hair) but after reading some these threads I think Im getting that way, Sorry Byran but looks like you beat me to it well at least the the font of head, He He

 

[maphesto]

I'd rather be bold than bald.

 

[NetEntFollower]

Now,after we have clearly identified this was a fault from the casino the player had the mission the meet the WR on this massive bonus.

Here's the issue - the fault was the casino's for giving him the bonus amount. However, just because the fault of depositing the wrong amount does not give the player the right to spend the extra money - with or without knowledge of the said error.

It's quite similar to my analogy with the bank, really. Just because you magically gained an extra 1k out of nowhere, doesn't mean it's yours to keep.

What if he lost the "extra" 1000 and won with the legit 1000?
T&C say that you play with the cash first. They don't say what part of the bonus you play first!

Loopholes, I like! But I don't they'll let this one slide

 

[Patrick123]

Here's the issue - the fault was the casino's for giving him the bonus amount. However, just because the fault of depositing the wrong amount does not give the player the right to spend the extra money - with or without knowledge of the said error.

It's quite similar to my analogy with the bank, really. Just because you magically gained an extra 1k out of nowhere, doesn't mean it's yours to keep.



Loopholes, I like! But I don't they'll let this one slide

It's nothing like your bank analogy which has no place here. The player has paid in full for this bonus via the wagering requirement. As has been said many times the player would not have been refunded had he lost his deposit.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Much like the pudgy guy with the glasses holding the shell in 'Lord of the Flies', I'm going to throw in a bit of common sense here among all the gleeful wardancing.

25k is a lot to you and me but let's get some perspective.
There are highrollers throwing 25k on a single spin on roulette table in Vegas on any given day of the week.
32 Red is a company listed on the stock exchange that sponsors football clubs.
It has an exemplary record for fair play stretching over ten years.

Do you seriously think they would not be paying 25k to a player if they didn't have grounds to believe the player was in the wrong?
Because I don't.

From a progressive view going forward Joseph has exposed a loophole in the current forum setup that might need addressing.

A player can ..

1 - come on here, state his objective to arouse mob justice then
2 -immediately mention court action preventing the casino from posting on the forum
3 -refuse to use the site's mediation system and refuse to explain why or even answer questions about it.

This then leaves the situation like an open wound, and the player is able to create bedlam with minimal posting
No new information can be added as the casino cannot post and the player will not PAB.

Everyone speculating is guessing the truth (because we do not know the facts)
FWIW my guess is that Joseph does not want to PAB or go to court. My guess is that he wants to strong arm the casino into paying up using a carefully conceived plan
that he has been working on since joining the forum a month ago.
i.e that he is getting members to do the work for him much like the Pied piper leading a merry dance round the garden.

(Okay I'm putting down the conch now and getting on with my bacon sandwich..)

 

[NetEntFollower]

It's nothing like your bank analogy which has no place here. The player has paid in full for this bonus via the wagering requirement. As has been said many times the player would not have been refunded had he lost his deposit.

A clerical error gave him money he should not have received in the first place. That's what my analogy comes down to.

From what I read:
32Red gave him money which he should not have gotten. He won using that money. They are voiding the win because of it. Their only reasoning is that he received more bonus money than what he was supposed to receive. And that's where my bank analogy comes into play - any money you gain by clerical errors will be returned and if you spent the money, you will have to return it. In this case, I don't think 32Red will pursue claiming back the money he spent but they are within their rights to void his winnings if they are working within their T&C.

 

[Casinomeister]

There is no obligation on the op to use any arbitration service let alone shill ones constructed by the betting community. Casinomeister is an affiliate site that offers to assist with player issues. blah blah blah.

Obviously Patrick here has a bee in his bonnet. Funny how he waited a full year to share his vitriolic viewpoint.

What "shill" arbitration service? This one? I am afraid not. You can peruse the history of the PAB and/or the forum/newsletters/webcasts and in doing so you will discover that there have been quite a number of Accredited Casinos that did find themselves in hot water - a number of them were even placed in the rogue section. Jackpot Factory, Fortune Lounge group, Lock Casino, Rushmore Group, MiniVegas group, Betfair, Sunny Group, The Chance Group, Bwin, just to name a few, have found themselves in the Not Recommended and/or Rogue section - only Jackpot Factory, Fortune Lounge, and MiniVegas were redeemed. So don't give me this shit about shilly bullshit.

Guess the advertisements aren't gambling links then....

So what? There are banners here - and amazingly few compared to other sites. How many magazines have picked up that had no adverts? Newspapers? TV shows? And yes, I have not put all my eggs into one basket. This site is managed so that if I need to remove a casino group we can still continue on without that much of a financial hit. Don't forget, Casinomeister has been around for over 16 years and is accustomed to change.

But one thing that will never change are narrow-minded trolls that will do whatever it takes to demean, belittle, and tarnish whatever good we do. It's players like you who poison threads like this - in fact the entire forum. You are the exact type of person who, when he doesn't get his way, puts on a phony persona and tries to destroy something that is trying to do the right thing.

 

[Patrick123]

He didn't gain the money by a clerical error. He gained the money by wagering it through. The bonus was awarded by a clerical error (potentially). There is a world of difference. This hasn't just appeared as cash in his account. He has paid for it and as has been said many times - his deposit would not have been returned had he lost.

 

[spintee]

Obviously Patrick here has a bee in his bonnet. Funny how he waited a full year to share his vitriolic viewpoint.

What "shill" arbitration service? This one? I am afraid not. You can peruse the history of the PAB and/or the forum/newsletters/webcasts and in doing so you will discover that there have been quite a number of Accredited Casinos that did find themselves in hot water - a number of them were even placed in the rogue section. Jackpot Factory, Fortune Lounge group, Lock Casino, Rushmore Group, MiniVegas group, Betfair, Sunny Group, The Chance Group, Bwin, just to name a few, have found themselves in the Not Recommended and/or Rogue section - only Jackpot Factory, Fortune Lounge, and MiniVegas were redeemed. So don't give me this shit about shilly bullshit.



So what? There are banners here - and amazingly few compared to other sites. How many magazines have picked up that had no adverts? Newspapers? TV shows? And yes, I have not put all my eggs into one basket. This site is managed so that if I need to remove a casino group we can still continue on without that much of a financial hit. Don't forget, Casinomeister has been around for over 16 years and is accustomed to change.

But one thing that will never change are narrow-minded trolls that will do whatever it takes to demean, belittle, and tarnish whatever good we do. It's players like you who poison threads like this - in fact the entire forum. You are the exact type of person who, when he doesn't get his way, puts on a phony persona and tries to destroy something that is trying to do the right thing.

I did not see a few good brand and names in there? Because the threes is a reason and they are good, Not trying to suck u no what but you guys do a f&king good job here and people miss that bit.

With the banners its a gambling site what do people expect? I said the other day that no matter what you go on theers banners, even sites unrelated to gambling they are there, thats cookies for you,
Bear in mind that alot of hard work goes on behind the scene what we do not see, 1st of is the time, than cash to host such a site, I give my upmost respect to the mesister and side kicks, as what other sites will look after you as much? Also with them banners and oher sites they will display any thing even low you may be well riped off

 

[bigjohn]

Much like the pudgy guy with the glasses holding the shell in 'Lord of the Flies', I'm going to throw in a bit of common sense here among all the gleeful wardancing.

25k is a lot to you and me but let's get some perspective.
There are highrollers throwing 25k on a single spin on roulette table in Vegas on any given day of the week.
32 Red is a company listed on the stock exchange that sponsors football clubs.
It has an exemplary record for fair play stretching over ten years.

Do you seriously think they would not be paying 25k to a player if they didn't have grounds to believe the player was in the wrong?
Because I don't.

From a progressive view going forward Joseph has exposed a loophole in the current forum setup that might need addressing.

A player can ..

1 - come on here, state his objective to arouse mob justice then
2 -immediately mention court action preventing the casino from posting on the forum
3 -refuse to use the site's mediation system and refuse to explain why or even answer questions about it.

This then leaves the situation like an open wound, and the player is able to create bedlam with minimal posting
No new information can be added as the casino cannot post and the player will not PAB.

Everyone speculating is guessing the truth (because we do not know the facts)
FWIW my guess is that Joseph does not want to PAB or go to court. My guess is that he wants to strong arm the casino into paying up using a carefully conceived plan
that he has been working on since joining the forum a month ago.
i.e that he is getting members to do the work for him much like the Pied piper leading a merry dance round the garden.

(Okay I'm putting down the conch now and getting on with my bacon sandwich..)

Very good perspective.

My own thoughts on this have been slowly migrating around to this view although I did bring up some of these points early on in the thread. I told him mentioning legal action was not a good idea and I pointed him to the FAQ for using the arbitration services offered here.

Someone who deposits $1000 in one shot should have every single T&C committed to memory and have calculated their playthrough and all. Heck, I do that for a $20 deposit!

The casinos original offer may very well be the best this player could have hoped for but I would not be surprised if that offer has been taken off the table.

If there is no demonstrable skirting of the rules by the OP, re-set balance with correct bonus amount and let him play it out, else, return deposit and ban the player.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If the OP refuses to PAB, then 32Red should say "bring on the court action". If the OP is merely bluffing, this will catch him out. If he is serious, then the solicitors from both sides can deal with it, and most likely it will be settled out of court. This isn't that different to a PAB, an out of court settlement is a mediation between the two side's legal representatives, whereas a PAB is a mediation between player and casino directly, but conducted through Max.

All I know is that this is an aberration, the usual policy at 32Red when a mistake is made on their part is to fix it in the manner most favourable to the player. If the bonus is duplicated, they let you keep it without fuss, even if you win. This policy should NOT depend on the outcome, such as letting the player keep it if the result is less than £xxxx, but going after them in draconian fashion if the win is greater.

It is this which has shocked me, as most casinos I know will not punish a player for an error made by their CS reps. I also can't see why an additional £1000, with it's -EV 30x WR, is such a big deal for a company like 32Red. Their reasoning (shown in the emails) reminds me of insurance company's nit picking arguments for not paying out on a claim, even when the problem was created by the insurer's own sales rep (as it often is).

 

[spintee]

If the OP refuses to PAB, then 32Red should say "bring on the court action". If the OP is merely bluffing, this will catch him out. If he is serious, then the solicitors from both sides can deal with it, and most likely it will be settled out of court. This isn't that different to a PAB, an out of court settlement is a mediation between the two side's legal representatives, whereas a PAB is a mediation between player and casino directly, but conducted through Max.

All I know is that this is an aberration, the usual policy at 32Red when a mistake is made on their part is to fix it in the manner most favourable to the player. If the bonus is duplicated, they let you keep it without fuss, even if you win. This policy should NOT depend on the outcome, such as letting the player keep it if the result is less than £xxxx, but going after them in draconian fashion if the win is greater.

It is this which has shocked me, as most casinos I know will not punish a player for an error made by their CS reps. I also can't see why an additional £1000, with it's -EV 30x WR, is such a big deal for a company like 32Red. Their reasoning (shown in the emails) reminds me of insurance company's nit picking arguments for not paying out on a claim, even when the problem was created by the insurer's own sales rep (as it often is).

Very valid point, They should not employ any tom dick and harry that can give out this type bonus or anything else, Alow we have been assured by many reps that deatils are safe any cs are reliable, Well I think different, I have many casino accounts and many email addys, I get many of offers from unknown casinos to email inbox I use for gamble, I see jack all sent in others so info passed along somwhere as we all no it happens, cut along story short if it was an error by cs than let it be and pay out, change the cs or do not have none as they do more than bad than good, Ive seen alot of people state they will not sign up to sites due to lack of cs ect, I rather none than be giving bullshit

 

[Casinomeister]

Just a quick admin note: To set the record straight, I do not ban people from this forum because they disagree with me. Patrick123 was banned because he had another account in the forum, which was banned last year for being a troll - which was connected to a number of other accounts in this forum - one of which was banned for submitting a fraudulant PAB against Redflush casino. It was proven beyand a shadow of a doubt that he had opened several accounts there.

Here are his accounts in this forum:

topoor
cowboypat
patrick123
bigjohn1971 (fraudster PAB)
reject726
3dfella

And of course, banning these accounts results in fan mail like this:

Hahaha you fucking little dickhead. I didn't say your site was a shill. In fact I differentiated between you and the shills by saying you wet an affiliate site.

You show yet again what a stupid, quick tempered arsehole you are. I hope your casino of the decade is shown to be as corrupt as you are and embarrasses this and shows you up for the arsewipe you are.

Prick.

So this just drives one point home, there are snakes in the grass.

Back to the issue of the OP and 32Red. I'm giving the player until close of business today to submit his complaint here.

 

[maphesto]

From bigjohn1971's profile page:

Best Casino IMHO:
32 red



Must have changed his mind then...

 

[incrediblestuff]

I also would like for the player to make use of the PAB-service.

I see so much "wrong" posts that it hurts my eyes...
Everything that could be said, has been said, and most of it was speculation and opinions based on "what if" and "when..then"scenarios, and now it's really futile to drag this on and time to see some results based on the facts (which are still unclear)..

As courtesy i ask even the ones that are booing at 32Red in a condemning way now, may be so kind to patiently await the results of the PAB and reserve their comments until then?

 

[dunover]

I also would like for the player to make use of the PAB-service.

I see so much "wrong" posts that it hurts my eyes...
Everything that could be said, has been said, and most of it was speculation and opinions based on "what if" and "when..then"scenarios, and now it's really futile to drag this on and time to see some results based on the facts (which are still unclear)..

As courtesy i ask even the ones that are booing at 32Red in a condemning way now, may be so kind to patiently await the results of the PAB and reserve their comments until then?

I agree. This thread has run its race now. The ifs, whys and wherefores have all been discussed. Like many I have wasted time and energy on this thread, and for reasons only known to himself the OP will either not listen to the PAB advice given or can't proceed with one. If he doesn't meet Bryan's deadline for PAB then AFAIC he can go hang and 32red can spend the 25k on a new painting for their offices or something for all I care.

Then this topic can have the lid put on it and be chucked in the trash.

 

[3jokers]

If it's true like OP states, then it's a scandal. Of course the player should be paid. Shouldn't even have gotten this far to be honest.

In the future I would advice the player to play at big NetEnt casinos to avoid this. Smaller bonuses but you always get paid.

 

[Azzurri]

I've read this whole thread (finally ), and I'm struggling to see how or why the discussion has lasted so long?

Being generous, surely this discussion ended after the second time the op was told by Max and Bryan (amongst others), why and how he should lodge a PAB?

I'm all for player rights, but when you have repeatedly been offered a free, and often successful, meditation service, yet continually refuse it, then you automatically lose any credibility in my opinion.

And I don't buy the op's reasons for not wanting to PAB either, as even if he did believe it wasn't a totally unbiased investigation, why the hell not try it anyway when you have nothing to lose by doing so? It's a free service, often successful (unless the player is bullshitting), could potentially save thousands in alternative legal fees, and would have no affect on future legal proceedings should the ruling be in the casinos favor.

This to me sets off enough alarm bells to form the opinion the op isn't worth this forums time or space, let alone 30 pages of repetitive nonsense.

I'm always too willing to give op's the benefit of the doubt until proven guilty, but I have no patience for those who continually ignore the helpful advice they are receiving. This tells me they have other motives, aren't being forthcoming, and have no intention of using this site for the purpose in which it exists.

Sorry to say, but I think some of you are being manipulated by the op, and are doing and saying exactly what he hoped you would.

I think the best course of action from this point is silence, and not giving this thread any further air time than it already has.

The op has sat back and let wild speculation grow, yet if he was serious about a resolution, the advice is simple and clear.

I smell bullshit yet again.

 

[Mouche12]

I join all those who are surprised about the OP's not lodging a PAB so far. Time's running out and the least he can do, given all the support given to him (even a Poll), is that he lets us know what his next step will be... I understand the stress he's going through but it's just not nice to give us the silent treatment at this point.

 

[SlotMonster]

A bit if offtop

This (ex) CM member is more likely to be a woman, and pretty old (>50 years). I recall "topoor" claiming she was a VIP player at BigCasino, and that customer was a woman.

More details here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/casino-bait-and-switch.45025/

Just a quick admin note: To set the record straight, I do not ban people from this forum because they disagree with me. Patrick123 was banned because he had another account in the forum, which was banned last year for being a troll - which was connected to a number of other accounts in this forum - one of which was banned for submitting a fraudulant PAB against Redflush casino. It was proven beyand a shadow of a doubt that he had opened several accounts there.

Here are his accounts in this forum:

topoor
cowboypat
patrick123
bigjohn1971 (fraudster PAB)
reject726
3dfella

And of course, banning these accounts results in fan mail like this:


So this just drives one point home, there are snakes in the grass.

Back to the issue of the OP and 32Red. I'm giving the player until close of business today to submit his complaint here.