Bonus Complaint Winnings and deposits confiscated due to max bet breach at Royal Panda

[hedgehok]

The requested withdrawal amount was also less than the bonus, so Stokes must have continued playing after clearing the bonus. (...)

I am not sure of that as did not watch constantly the wagering status (for that I would have closed the game I played and go to my account settings).
So I kept playing for a while before I checked the wagering and saw that I have cleared it. It is possible that I finished the wagering an played away the excess balance (the not poisoned part as you put it).

Well there is nothing to be done then. You can't blame them in that case. Consider your gameplay without a bonus and it would have made no difference (despite making deposits to clear a bonus). The result is a bust in both scenarios.

 

[stokes]

Of course. But who in their right mind would deposit to clear a bonus which will be void later? It is a win-win situation for the casino.
Breached the bonus term? No problem keep on depositing and playing then we tell you later sod off.

As mentioned earlier. At least if they would employ the normal bonus system I would have only lost my initial deposit (100 USD) and not the rest (350 USD more).

What I really don't like in the casino's approach is that they consider me as some kind of bonus hunter even though I have had 22 deposits since I registered last year and only used bonus 7 times.

I guess the fact that I was well ahead (the amount a withdrawal was more than the deposit) did not help to my case.

Just to put into perspective the matter.
I have asked again (I asked them earlier and the answer was the same) my other favourite (accredited) casino about their max bet approach. I explained that how I play and told them that my bets would be exceeding their max bet (5 EUR) and asked them it would be OK. They said that should not be a problem.

That is what I miss here, the flexibilty. Considering the history of my account etc.

 

[ginzink]

Of course. But who in their right mind would deposit to clear a bonus which will be void later? It is a win-win situation for the casino.
Breached the bonus term? No problem keep on depositing and playing then we tell you later sod off.

As mentioned earlier. At least if they would employ the normal bonus system I would have only lost my initial deposit (100 USD) and not the rest (350 USD more).

What I really don't like in the casino's approach is that they consider me as some kind of bonus hunter even though I have had 22 deposits since I registered last year and only used bonus 7 times.

I guess the fact that I was well ahead (the amount a withdrawal was more than the deposit) did not help to my case.

Just to put into perspective the matter.
I have asked again (I asked them earlier and the answer was the same) my other favourite (accredited) casino about their max bet approach. I explained that how I play and told them that my bets would be exceeding their max bet (5 EUR) and asked them it would be OK. They said that should not be a problem.

That is what I miss here, the flexibilty. Considering the history of my account etc.

There is huge difference in asking beforehand if betting higher is ok, and betting higher than allowed after being told it is not ok.
I understand your frustration, but the casino rep makes some good points.

If they would have let you keep the winnings should you hit big with the real cash, your on a fast track from being supported to being asked to read terms.

 

[stokes]

There is huge difference in asking beforehand if betting higher is ok, and betting higher than allowed after being told it is not ok.

They informed me one week earlier when used the same bonus. This is from the chat (thanks to Melvin):

Please remember that the maximum bet permitted when playing with bonus money is $7.50, €7.00, £5.00, or its equivalent in another currency.

However, please keep in mind that there are games that offer different bet limits. You can find more information here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. In the event of a breach of this rule, the player agrees that his bonus, and any associated winnings, may be void.

You can see the wording:

the player agrees that his bonus, and any associated winnings, may be void.

Which means in plain English (I am sorry if my comprehension is not good enough):

Your deposits, bonus and winnings will be void.

So my issue is that (apart from the missing automatic overbetting prevention) is that they keep my deposits.

It is a bit funny to see how the casino (Melvin) view this whole max bet thing:

First breach bonus terms, then deposit and gamble however you want. If you win, you can cash out the winnings, if you lose you can ask for a refund

Let me turn this around:

Employ strict bonus terms with max bet (even different level for certain games) and keep the winnings and deposits of players caught.


I have had similar problem at other casino (Club777, Mansion Group) where they voided my winnings, BUT they returned my deposit, that is what I expect to be done here.

 

[Melvin - Panda]

Hi Stokes,

Let me turn this around:

Employ strict bonus terms with max bet (even different level for certain games) and keep the winnings and deposits of players caught.

I think this is where we have a slight misunderstanding.

We would not keep your deposit, if you had any cash balance left you would have been free to withdraw this. Had you won €5000, you would have been free to withdraw this as well. It doesn't matter if your bonus was still active, canceled, cleared or breached. Real money winnings would have been yours.

 

[stokes]

Hi Stokes,



I think this is where we have a slight misunderstanding.

We would not keep your deposit, if you had any cash balance left you would have been free to withdraw this. Had you won €5000, you would have been free to withdraw this as well. It doesn't matter if your bonus was still active, canceled, cleared or breached. Real money winnings would have been yours.

I see.

Melvin, please answer a simple question. Why would I deposit if I have 1200 USD on my account?

I think you can't have both.

Either you accept that I fulfilled the wagering then you should release my winnings or you can void my winnings, but you should not keep my deposits which was clearly done to clear the wagering.

 

[stokes]

I asked Videoslots to send me my chat history to prove that I haven't just made up a story mixing up Videoslots chat with Royal Panda chat regarding max bet restriction.
Here is my chat with Videoslots from 14th of Jan (thanks to Videoslots for providing):

10:17 Your Question: Hi, could you please advise if the bonus I received can be used on any games?
10:17 Please wait, an operator will be with you shortly.
10:17 You are now chatting with Jonathan F (Customer Service) - English
10:18 Jonathan F: Hi Zo***, how are you?
10:19 Zo***: Hi, I am doing fine. How about you?
10:19 Jonathan F: Good to hear. I am fine too thank you.
10:20 Zo***: Can you see my question?
10:21 Jonathan F: Yes sir. I am checking your account. Kindly one moment.
10:21 Zo***: OK, thanks
10:25 Jonathan F: Thank you for holding, I am checking it out with the correct department.
10:27 Zo***: ok
10:30 Jonathan F: You can wager it in any games but progressive jackpot games.
10:30 Jonathan F: So no Progressive jackpot games
10:30 Jonathan F: And you will get more to your contribution by playing in slots and videoslots.
10:30 Zo***: I see.
10:30 Zo***: Any restriction on bet size.
10:31 Jonathan F: We have an automatic bet protection. I will tell you what the limits are.
10:32 Zo***: that's excellent
10:32 Zo***: thanks for your support
10:32 Zo***: that was all for now
10:33 Zo***: bye-bye
10:33 Jonathan F: Thank you too. And sorry for the delay sometimes.
10:33 Jonathan F: Bye to you. Have a terrific day!

I know it does not change the fact that I did not ask this at Royal Panda and made overbets, but at least it shows that I did not fabricate the story.
And one more thing. So there is a possibility to make a bet protection system which would prevent the breach of max bet rule, but I guess it is obvious why most casinos don't use it.

Nevertheless, I have contacted Malta Gaming Authority to have their view on my issue as it does not sit well with me when an online casino treats me like a criminal (confiscating deposits, which should be the last resort for serious misuse of the casino).

I will keep you updated about the outcome.

 

[babyjoker]

In a nutshell it appears you had breached the terms early on so any deposit after this was doomed anyway, especially as you were only depositing to unlock the bonus you had acquired, if that is the case then I think you should have the deposits refunded.

 

[t4llek]

Hi Stokes,



I think this is where we have a slight misunderstanding.

We would not keep your deposit, if you had any cash balance left you would have been free to withdraw this. Had you won €5000, you would have been free to withdraw this as well. It doesn't matter if your bonus was still active, canceled, cleared or breached. Real money winnings would have been yours.

dunno if ur missing the point on purpose or not. he only deposited further to clear the bonus
if he knew he would get forfeited of the bonus he would not deposit more?

 

[lockinlove]

I dont have much to add that others havent, I think those deposits should be refunded. The casino was basically freerolling here. If he never had a chance to cashout that $1200...then he was only depositing to lose. And if got lucky...break even.

I think the rep is missing the point. He would never have deposited in the first place if he knew the outcome. You guys just cant freeroll people like that.

Confiscate the winnings but give him back those deposits.

 

[Steviedoo]

Just a silly question. If his 2nd/3rd deposits were doomed cuz there was wagering left to be done and his money was poisoned. When would it be ok to deposit again. I mean. Does the wr stay there forever and then every time he deposited he would have to forfeit his winnings cuz of that initial mistake of over betting. What am I missing.

When does the wr come off your account at this casino.

 

[Janek12]

I dont have much to add that others havent, I think those deposits should be refunded. The casino was basically freerolling here. If he never had a chance to cashout that $1200...then he was only depositing to lose. And if got lucky...break even.

I think the rep is missing the point. He would never have deposited in the first place if he knew the outcome. You guys just cant freeroll people like that.

Confiscate the winnings but give him back those deposits.

As I understand it:
1) The OP deposited 100, received 50 as a bonus.
2) Lost the 100.
3) Played with the bonus, got it up to 1200.
4) Deposited 350. Lost the 350, dipped into the bonus again, then cleared the WR.

In summary, as I understand it, the OP lost all his deposits. That's why the casino does not want to refund the deposits.

And that's why the casino rep keeps telling that if the OP had not lost the additional deposits, then the money won from those deposits would be for the OP to keep as winnings.

 

[Janek12]

I see.

Melvin, please answer a simple question. Why would I deposit if I have 1200 USD on my account?

I think you can't have both.

Either you accept that I fulfilled the wagering then you should release my winnings or you can void my winnings, but you should not keep my deposits which was clearly done to clear the wagering.

As I understand it, you made the additional deposits because you were not aware of/forgot/ignored the terms and conditions of the bonus.
I cannot understand how it could be the casino's fault that you made the additional deposits.

 

[ginzink]

THis is one grey complaint, both sides have valid points. I understand why the casino dont just give it back, as that would open them to abuse.
Yet at this spesific case he should have it returned if he is telling the truth. I think he is, but there is no way to prove that, and people will do alot of things for money so can understand the casinos issue.

What i do not understand is how he cleared wagering yet lost all his deposits as you need real cash to clear wager?

 

[stokes]

As I understand it, you made the additional deposits because you were not aware of/forgot/ignored the terms and conditions of the bonus.
I cannot understand how it could be the casino's fault that you made the additional deposits.

I would have never deposited if I knew that my winnings WILL BE voided.

See my post earlier about their term:

"the player agrees that his bonus, and any associated winnings, may be void."

Which means in plain English (I am sorry if my comprehension is not good enough) according to Royal Panda:

Your deposits, bonus and winnings will be void.

Do you think anyone with a right mind would just deposit even though 1200 USD sitting in the account? I think it is pretty obvious that I did those deposits to clear the bonus.

Another thing is that I was not someone who just signed up (having almost 20 deposits earlier), so I thought they would consider this when deciding about my winnings.

 

[stokes]

Just a side note.

I wonder how those casinos (i.e. 18bet, WillHill casinos etc.) without max bet restriction at bonus play can survive?

I am not a matematician, so I don't really understand what is the reason to have the max bet rule especially with this low bonus I had. I mean the RTP would remain the same. For example from 100 bonus abuser about 97 would lose their money.

 

[t4llek]

Just a silly question. If his 2nd/3rd deposits were doomed cuz there was wagering left to be done and his money was poisoned. When would it be ok to deposit again. I mean. Does the wr stay there forever and then every time he deposited he would have to forfeit his winnings cuz of that initial mistake of over betting. What am I missing.

When does the wr come off your account at this casino.

Thats the only valid point here my friend, if the casino doesnt tell him straight away he breached the rule and let those bonus funds there he just gets suckered into depositing for the wr, imo thats just wrong, keep in mind i do play at royal panda and think they are a great outfit, but their bonus structure is just bad, i bet this player isnt the only case who had this problem, hes just one that spoke up about it, i dont play bonus almost nowhere nowadays, only the ocasional at casumo, my advice to this player would be STOP PLAYING WITH BONUS! Willl save u a lot of trouble in the future.

 

[cncas2123]

Agree with the above, if max bet was breached and bonus void, the player should have been made aware of this, or the bonus should have been removed and he wouldnt have made more deposits,but Royal Panda dont want to take that on board.

 

[lockinlove]

All this casino is telling people is if there is ever a reasonable issue where both sides have points, that they are unwilling to work with the players. Especially ones who have deposited 20+ times.

This is how I think "if there was some sort of honest mistake, will this casino be willing to work with me". The answer is no. And im getting the sense they dont appreciate their regular depositers. And im sure this is what lots of other players will see too and will sway them to deposit somewhere else.

Look at videoslots. They have a max bet rule but they put a feature in place where the software crashes if you accidentally hit max bet.

Ive also hit max bet during a bonus by accident at other casinos during a bonus. I instantly went to chat and said I made a mistake. They reviewed my play and saw it was an accident and asked I not do it again.

Thats an example of a good strong casino.

With this casino group, I wouldnt feel confident they would be willing to be understanding under any circumstance.

The guy made 20+ deposits. Is it not worth it long run to keep this player happy? Especially when its quite obvious this was an honest misunderstanding?

This isnt some random person who walked off the street and this transitioned. Hes a fairly regular depositor.

The only thing this casino group has done is cause negative PR, offend a regular and turn off other gamblers from joining and losing their money there.

 

[hedgehok]

The last couple of posts show very clearly that most people don't understand bonuses and therefore should probably not take them.

Simplified:
1) OP deposited and received a bonus
2) OP lost his deposit and continued to play with the bonus and subsequently raised it to $1200
3) OP made more deposits to clear WR (this is unique at Royal Panda where you have to clear WR with straight cash)
4) OP indeed cleared WR and the $1200 transformed from bonus to cash balance.
5) He continued to play and his total balance dropped to $1200 or below and he submitted a withdrawal request which was declined. Apparently he would have been allowed to withdraw any balance in excess of $1200 (non-bonus part).

To be honest I think this pickle should somehow be prevented, for example with a message that your bonus balance will be void if you place this bet (a warning message). If this is technically impossible than forfeit the bonus immediately after the bet is place that breached the T&C.

I can follow Melvins explanation but to some extent I can also understand stokes' frustration. It's a typical live and learn situation and a clear example to be double and triple cautious when you play with a bonus to abide to the terms which you should have understand completely before you start playing.

 

[lockinlove]

You basically just said what everyone else said but for some reason decided to say we dont understand bonuses.

Most people say it was an honest misunderstanding and once the person deposited, it was phantom money. He had no win with it. The casino was able to freeroll on these deposits.

My stance is, an honest mistake was made. Obvious confusion where the player believed one thing because the way it is written or isnt written.

He also isnt a driveby player. Hes a loyal player who has deposited thousands of dollars. Why not give the player the benefit of the doubt. In the long run it only benefits the casino anyways.

 

[hedgehok]

You basically just said what everyone else said but for some reason decided to say we dont understand bonuses.

Most people say it was an honest misunderstanding and once the person deposited, it was phantom money. He had no win with it. The casino was able to freeroll on these deposits.

My stance is, an honest mistake was made. Obvious confusion where the player believed one thing because the way it is written or isnt written.

He also isnt a driveby player. Hes a loyal player who has deposited thousands of dollars. Why not give the player the benefit of the doubt. In the long run it only benefits the casino anyways.

You apparently don't understand his case. His subsequent deposits where not phantom money. He would have been able to withdraw it in case he would have a balance excessing his bonus ($1200) after WR was completed. If he had $1500 he would have been able to withdraw $300.

 

[lockinlove]

When I say he had no win with it, Im saying his intention was not to try winning but trying to release the bonus.


He made a deposit for one reason only. One. To meet the wagering requirements on the $1200. The $1200 he was never going to get anyways. He was risking that money, im sure with the understanding he will most likely lose it but in the end it would be worth it because that money would be released.

Instead because he had zero chance to release that money, he ended up risking that money which he would never have done if he knew he was chasing a bonus that didnt exist.

I just want to be clear here that the casino isnt breaking any rules. They have the right to do what they are doing. I just dont think its very good business given the circumstances and how much the player deposits and risks on their site as it is

 

[stokes]

I question that they had a right to do what they did.
According to their terms they were allowed to take the bonus winnings, but not the deposits:

"the player agrees that his bonus, and any associated winnings, may be void."

As a general note.
I strongly believe that those casinos who have the most difficult bonus terms (with several restriction regarding bet size, game type etc.) are the most player unfriendly (many times rogue).
Their intention is to catch as many players they can. That will give them extra profit as the forfeited money would not be put back to the pot of the games (so the RTP will be lower).
That is the reason why Videoslots example is not followed.

 

[Janek12]

Ive also hit max bet during a bonus by accident at other casinos during a bonus. I instantly went to chat and said I made a mistake. They reviewed my play and saw it was an accident and asked I not do it again.

IMO, that's the correct thing to do and that's what the OP did not do.
If he had done this, the chat support would have told him that he breached the terms of the bonus and that the bonus was therefore void.

So IMO it still comes down to the OP's not caring enough to be certain about the bonus terms of the bonus he was playing with.

Even at the best of casinos (such as Bet-at or Redbet where I accidentally exceed the max bet) the chat support does not pop in and point out to you that you have just exceeded max bet.
However, I did the same thing as you did (went immediately to chat, in my case sweating and panicking ) and they said it's OK.