US Players and Casinomeister

[soflat]

Oh darn I was hoping Kengam would grow a backbone and reveal his "evidence" in the EH case soon.

He led people on for weeks but never produced.

 

[Casinomeister]

I believe you are adressing this in a manner which, due to your influence in the online gaming business, will push the few remaining reputable companies to ban u.s. players.

I seriously doubt any casino will ban all players just so they can come on board here at Casinomeister. Don't forget, more than half of the casinos listed here are already banning all US players. That's not my doing.

I would like to suggest that the Act appears to ban ALL Casino/Poker advertisements so you would probably still not be in total compliance.

Sorry, you are wrong here. If I am not targeting US players with advertisements, and only providing services to them (information, news, PAB, etc.), I'm doing nothing wrong

Perhaps the best approach for ALL of us would be to ban U.S. players from access to the website.

In this manner you will not force business to ban us if they need the exposure you provide them. .

This doesn't make any sense to me at all. Casinomeister is not a marketing site. It's more than a banner fest.

YOU THEN COULD ESTABLISH A U.S. FORUM. WHEN U.S. PLAYERS ENTER THE WEBSITE IN THEIR BROWSER THEY WOULD BE REDIRECTED AND SIGN IN ONLY TO THAT FORUM.

But why?

I believe the approach you have planned to take is doing nothing but assisting the U.S. government in banning freedom of speech. U.S. supreme court has held that books can not be banned. Constitutionally we have a right to information.

There is nothing changed here unless you feel that not being served banners is a violation of your rights. $200 FREE CLICK HERE NOW doesn't do much for me

Also, I believe the issue that should be addressed in court by the internet organizations is that if casinos are complying with the law, advertising on your site is meaningless for U.s. players anyway.

Please ban us not the casinos . your decision to ban them is doing both us and the casinos a disservice.

Sorry, but I don't follow your logic here. It's been a long day...

 

[rowmare]

I believe the approach you have planned to take is doing nothing but assisting the U.S. government in banning freedom of speech. U.S. supreme court has held that books can not be banned. Constitutionally we have a right to information.

That is a very important issue. Americans should consider their eroding freedoms next time they go to the polls. But in no way is it an issue that can be solved by gambling portals - what is happening here is merely another symptom of the erosion of democracy in the U.S.

 

[Casinomeister]

Maybe there is some confusion here - no one is being redirected or banned from this site (unless they piss me off too much ). So freedom of speech is not an issue.

Also, let's try not to forget, this is not an American focused website - it's a global one, always has been. Everyone is welcome here - even the Bible thumpers.

 

[Rollo]

CM is being smart...

I think yall need to give American webmasters a break. It's easy to snipe if you're not exposed or if you never need to go to the states, but CM's decision was the only smart move an American can make IMO. There's no question that we're subejct to all these nutty laws.

1) What American webmasters do really has no effect on the availablility of casinos to US players. There is no reason European webmasters can't continue promoting them.

2) Most portals don't make anything near (not even close) to what the betting firms make so they are not the ones who rightly should take the heat or, if it comes to that, serve the time. Give me a billion dollars in gaming stock and I'd go on national TV and call GWB a communist, get online and take bets right on Larry King Live. But for what most webmasters make? I removed sites that accept US players, too. I doubt Brian would even have the funds to mount a strong legal defense for something of this magnitude if something were to happen.

3) As Americans, we're simply sitting ducks. The US legal system is an odd one... all it takes is some backwater sheriff to decide he doesn't like the look of the necklace Brian is wearing in his photo and it's a world of problems. Not only can a single court case break you finiancially if you win... God, state prison... I don't even want to mention the cornhole.

Not wanting to break the law of your own country isn't cowardice. If the situation were reversed and it was Britan that passed this law, I'm sure American webmasters wouldn't give a flying f*** and it would be business as usual... but not at home. Too risky.

 

[Pinababy69]

Give me a billion dollars in gaming stock and I'd go on national TV and call GWB a communist, get online and take bets right on Larry King Live.

I'll do that for free, can ya get me some airtime?

 

[Stanford]

Confused

Maybe there is some confusion here - no one is being redirected or banned from this site (unless they piss me off too much ). So freedom of speech is not an issue.

Also, let's try not to forget, this is not an American focused website - it's a global one, always has been. Everyone is welcome here - even the Bible thumpers.

I have read the thread and I am confused.

So are you saying that if Fortune Lounge continues to allow Americans, then they are not listed as accredited on your web site?

If that is true, I don't understand your motive. Why not just put up a banner asking Americans to not sign up through your site?

If it isn't true, I don't know what you are doing.

As far as being of service to your loyal American friends, you would be of better service to ban them completely rather than revoke recommendations of any casinos accepting American trade. That makes you part of the problem a big part.

For one thing, you have no idea if an American is illegal or not. When I cross the border I play under the same ID as when I don't. Under even the most restrictive interpretations I am legal to play in Canada - even though I live in the United States. Therefore to remove a recommendation just because a casino accepts my trade doesn't make any sense to me at all.

I can't believe I am reading this correctly. Am I confused?

Stanford

 

[Stanford]

An alternative for U.S. Players

So, a command decision was made while I was there at the conference: Casinos that accept bets from US based players will not be listed at Casinomeister.

So what does this mean for Casinomeister members who reside in the US? Not too much if you are playing at Casinos not listed here. Unfortunately, you won't have that sense of protection while playing at a "Casinomeister Accredited Casino" since there won't be any at your disposal.

You may need to venture out of your house and check out the local poker room dives in your neighborhood, or anticipate a freaky road-trip to Vegas or some nearby Indian reservation. But if you're looking to join casinos from here, sorry - I can't help you out.

But there are others who will help you out. Consider the Online Forum at Blackjack Forum Online.

Arnold Snyder is a real professional gambler. His information is top notch. He is still open for business and working with casinos who accept American players. He is very pro-active. This from Snyder:

"Every lawyer we have consulted (and we've talked to a number of them now) says that online casino and poker gambling remain legal for players despite this law.
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And a number of online casinos and poker rooms have been reaffirming their intention to continue to accept US players.
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Assuming these online casinos and poker rooms stick to this intention, the only problem for US players will be changes in how best to transfer deposits and winnings.
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I am doing an in-depth article for Blackjack Forum on alternate banking for US online casino and poker players. I am checking out the easiest, safest and cheapest ways to go for low-stakes players, and special services/interest rates available for those who wish to open bigger accounts. I am going through the entire process myself to make sure I cover all the details and can tell players exactly what to expect.
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Many reputable foreign banks have good online banking services. Some allow you to deposit and withdraw via Paypal.
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In the meantime, higher-stakes players may want to check out: Micheloud & Cie, an outfit that specializes in opening Swiss bank accounts for you for a fee. You do not have to be a resident of Switzerland. Part of the account-opening process can be done online, but there are also some documents that have to be sent in by snail mail.
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The Micheloud & Cie fee (approx. $719 U.S.) will probably be too high for many lower-stakes players. You know, they are the middleman and they're offering a service so they want a cut. In the article, I'll provide cheaper ways for players to open accounts directly at banks. I don't expect that opening an account will be much more inconvenient than opening a Neteller account."

Americans are going to have to find a place to continue. And if it isn't going to be here, it might as well be someplace where the proprietor has been engaged in getting the better of conditions for as long as I can remember. Check it out.

Stanford

 

[Casinomeister]

Thanks for your comments Stanford - please let me explain further: the US laws at the moment are so convoluted that it's difficult to make any sense out of them. There is far too much interpretation going on and not enough concrete explanations on what is right - what is wrong. My main mission is not to make money off of this site, but to provide a viable service to everyone: information, interactivity, news, webcasts, newsletters, entertainment. Thus I am very protective of Casinomeister - it's crucial that I remain within the white area and not pass into the grey. If I have to take a financial hit to remain viable - that's what I will do.

At the moment, all websites that carry advertisements for online casinos/pokerrooms in the states are at risk. It's like all the webmasters are speeding on the highway doing 75. If you get pulled over, what's your excuse? "Well, officer - everyone else was speeding." Tough titty - you're going to get a ticket. I am not willing to take this risk - it's as though Casinomeister is driving a bright red Ferrari going down Interstate five. I'm watching my speed at the moment

This is a very dynamic environment, and nothing is etched in stone. Things change, and I hope to be in a position in the near future to modify the "accredited section" I'm working with a few casinos to do just that. But for now, it's one step at a time.

I still don't understand how banning players from a site like this helps at all. It would be like amputating your leg because you've stubbed your toe.

 

[spearmaster]

Obviously, Casinomeister has to take on all opinions from a legal perspective. If for some reason he is adjudged to have fallen foul of the law, it considerably weakens his ability to provide objective information to people outside the US as well.

Please keep in mind that, while Casinomeister would obviously like to be everything to everyone, it is more sensible for him to take a position that is viable for everyone concerned. By doing so, he is able to ensure that the information here is still accessible to all.

Arnold Snyder, as you point out, is a well-known quantity in his sphere - and he is perfectly entitled to state his opinions and operate his site as he pleases - but his view of the legal situation does not concur with Casinomeister's - so why should Casinomeister be asked to do what he doesn't believe is right?

No matter what, Casinomeister ultimately is the one that must take responsibility for his own actions. It's much easier for us on the other side of the fence to voice opinions which do not have any direct impact on our lives.

 

[Stanford]

Maybe I am still confused

CM, banning players from your forum may not work at least not as well. I suppose if the U.S. player cant complain, then the fact that you are listing the Casino wont matter. I dont suppose there is a way they could just reach the forum without reaching the banner. But I would prefer banning to you leaving the U.S. segment.

The reason I hate to see you abandon a segment of the market is because you have been a regulating force for casino integrity. Its like you, Spear and Jetset are Wyatt, Doc and Morgan in the Wild West of Internet Gaming. Frist and company has shown up at the OK Corral and I dont blame you for wanting to protect yourself but surely there is a way you can do so without abandoning the U.S. market segment.

Perhaps you could list the casino but not the link? Wouldnt this do the same thing as far as protection? In your example it will be like getting pulled over but someone else is driving. Surely you dont think a review and opinion is a violation of the law. If the landscape changes, you will be in a better position to market.

I think the landscape may well change if webmasters, casinos, and web wallets dont panic. The banking lobby isnt happy. And the Christian Right that Frist was trying to woo is disaffected due to FoleyGate and may well sit out the elections. The U.S. poker players may actually be a tipping point and the only way to settle them down is for Regulations to ignore the Web Wallets. All this points to Regulations that will allow Neteller to keep functioning, but we need a regulated marketplace. But it is going to be mute if there arent places to play.

Just by way of example, my state has a plant that processes horses for human consumption. The residents hate it. And last year they finally got a law past that would prohibit the Agriculture Department from spending funds to inspect the plants and so the plants would close. There was much celebration. But the horse processing industry complained and the administration simply told the Ag. Department to charge for the inspections and business goes on as usual. Its all in the implementation.

Internet gaming has always been grey. My state attorney-general insist it is illegal in my state and we ignore him even my friend who worked in the attorney generals office ignored him. But business went on as usual. I expect it might again.

Speer, the point of my discussion about Snyder was only to give American Players some options. We have to go someplace and Snyder will intercede on behalf of players if he is listing the casino. Thats not going to fill the hole you guys leave behind but it is a start. And certainly being proactive in finding funding alternatives is something that will be helpful.

I am glad CM says nothing is written in stone. I am hoping for a creative alternative. But if not, I hope players will post reputable sites that list casinos for Americans so that we can support that segment. Snyders is a good one.

Stanford

 

[liquidsoap]

If the US act went passed and I was not able to gamble ONLINE any more, I would still attend this site. I personally enjoy reading all the winning screen shots and the horror stories of people who don't know any better.

Plus I enjoy waking up everyone morning and reading all these posts.

 

[Tailgun]

Right when we need a site like this the most, CM is joining the others by pulling out of the US market. Very disappointing; the Accredited Casinos list is what brought me here and joining the forums are what enticed me to stay.

I guess I'll have to get used to Blackjack Forum Online and asking questions at Wizard of Odds.

What a shame, Brian. All the work on this good-looking website, well-maintained and professional, and all your work helping keep the industry honest. I sure hope you work this out somehow, someday.

 

[Casinomeister]

Maybe we need to chill and let everyone ride this out a bit more. I'm not abandoning anyone, and yes, the accredited list will expand I'm sure - and it will be available to most everyone. But jeeze people, it's only been a few days sine the bill was signed - we have a long way to go. The next few weeks - maybe the next couple of months will be a little bumpy. But hell, what do you expect?

I didn't realize some of you came here to click away at the banners - cool

Please bear in mind, the information (news, webcast, newsletter, other items of interest) are still applicable to players from Arizona to Zambia. I hope that this is what you are seeking. Knowledge is power.

 

[spearmaster]

Perhaps you could list the casino but not the link? Wouldn’t this do the same thing as far as protection? In your example it will be like getting pulled over but someone else is driving. Surely you don’t think a review and opinion is a violation of the law. If the landscape changes, you will be in a better position to market.

I actually suggested this same solution to him - in fact, it is the one I am using for my nearly-forgotten site LOL.

However, he is obviously in possession of more information about the potential legal ramifications, seeing as that he went to Barcelona and I didn't

I hope to hear more when I present in Dublin next month - my good friend Joe Kelly will be there and I will have hopefully a more informed opinion from him - but as it stands I certainly can't blame Casinomeister for taking the high road.

Regarding reaching the forums without the banners, this is exactly the solution that Casinomeister is working on. In this way all US players will continue to have full access to information - just without the advertising. In the real world I think this would be a dream come true - unless you happen to enjoy watching TV ads - but here in the online world it clearly seems to have a different meaning.

 

[Casinomeister]

Admin note:

Kengam's back in. Sorry I lost my cool. I apologize for calling you a twit and an idiot.

 

[Casinomeister]

The reason I hate to see you abandon a segment of the market is because you have been a regulating force for casino integrity. Its like you, Spear and Jetset are Wyatt, Doc and Morgan in the Wild West of Internet Gaming. Frist and company has shown up at the OK Corral and I dont blame you for wanting to protect yourself but surely there is a way you can do so without abandoning the U.S. market segment.

Look at it this way, I'm on a jungle patrol and headed for a certain objective - let's call this objective "a successful website in the future".

My point man has spotted an enemy ambush up on the road ahead - lying in wait. What am I going to do? Rush the ambush and engage the enemy? Or am I going to back up and regroup?

This is the "back up and regroup phase" At this point I'm gathering intellegence and determining if there are alternative routes to bypass the enemy. It can be done - but it's not going to happen over night. We're still huddled in the jungle - locked and loaded - just give my guys some time to avoid enemy contact - we'll get there

 

[Simmo!]

Kengam's back in. Sorry I lost my cool. I apologize for calling you a twit and an idiot.

LOL. Well, hopefully he apologised for his comment too.

 

[kengam]

thanks Bryan. We may not always agree, but we are on the same side.

 

[jetset]

Hardly a convincing apology for that unnecessary "backbone" comment. Bryan's been man enough to offer an olive branch, what about reciprocating?

 

[spearmaster]

Not to mention certain dubious claims and posts here and elsewhere... and as for being on the same side, you sure don't exhibit any signs of being anything LIKE a teammate.

This is Casinomeister's place and he's free to do as he likes. But even if he no longer takes a dim view of your comments, I still do.

 

[tennis_balls]

i just come here to click on the banner ads so i'm the one that's taking the big hit

 

[spearmaster]

Never you mind - since you live in the UK you may click on banners to your heart's content

 

[Rollo]

Why not continue to list acredited casinos, but just not link to them? I'd guess that's safe ground.

 

[Pinababy69]

Not to mention certain dubious claims and posts here and elsewhere... and as for being on the same side, you sure don't exhibit any signs of being anything LIKE a teammate.

This is Casinomeister's place and he's free to do as he likes. But even if he no longer takes a dim view of your comments, I still do.

Ditto Spear.