player's union discussion

[spearmaster]

Caruso said:

PLAYERS DO NOT HEED WARNINGS, THEY ONLY POST THEM.

Actually, for the most part I agree. No one hesitates to post a warning. But some people do decide to heed warnings - and some think that they don't really believe the warning and go ahead and play anyhow.

It all boils down to where the warning is coming from, and the level of severity (ie. poor support as opposed to no-pay). The "boycott" method certainly does work when the call for action comes from a respected source.

The rest of this discussion is interesting to follow, especially given what problems the OPAs have come up against in the past. I'm not making any other comments here because my views have been documented in older threads. Except to say that I can vouch for Meister 100% in that he is not casino-biased (though one can then argue that I myself am biased because I also run a portal... LOL...).

 

[jetset]

If we charged union dues, then yes we would have checks and balances in place so players who thought they were wrongly decided against could appeal. We do not charge a fee to be a member, therefore it is money put up by someone else. Namely us. So yes, our decision would be final and not open to appeal. Again, since it is our money, we do reserve the right to use the players name (handle) or likeness for advertising.UNQUOTE

I believe this is the same sort of fundamentally flawed thinking that was at the root of previous problems in this field - and it's why you need to provide a more democratic platform to protect the rights of your members.

Whilst I like the Keep It Simple philosophy, there are some things which bear too heavily on the way an organisation evolves to demand anything less than considered thought and formalisation.

Big_Mac has made some fair points that are worth your consideration imo.

 

[Casinomeister]

As for a players union, all I can say is good luck. This has been attempted several times in the past, and I can honestly say - it won't work.

Okay, let me rephrase myself ...I can honestly say - it probably won't work. That's not so negative now, is it?
Lest we don't overlook the fact that I wish you luck in the preceeding sentence, eh?

I have no reason to wish the union not to work; I am just pointing out (like several others) that what you are attempting here is problematic; it's a bit more complex than what you may think. And I am simply pointing out some areas that you need to review or understand.

Let's look at the following situation: Already Damian is posting in the ads section indicating that a boycott of Omni is under consideration - or being voted on, etc.

Under what grounds are you initiating a vote for a boycott? Is it because of what has been posted here and at WOL or at _____________ (name your favorite forum). Have you rolled up your sleeves and investigated the claims yourself, or are you relying on hearsay?

Seven of the eleven claims submitted through me (yes, all forum members) have multiple accounts at Omni.

If you were boycotting this casino, (or blacklisting them, etc.) wouldn't you feel stupid? Talk about eating some yummy crow.

As i see right now more and more you going to the casino side, not saying you dont help. but that what i see, since u want to jump me...that what i see and others, I am not the only one i talk to many people. I know bryan does a great job, But to be negative right off the back is wrong.

So people you know tell you I side with the casino more often than not; that I'm casino biased. Well how about thinking for yourself, eh? I'm not going to honor that stupid-ass statement with a response - but what I will ask of you is to think about what you are dealing with. How well do you know these players? Who can you trust? - the players, or the casino - and where are you going to place yourself in the midst of all this.

Again I will emphasize, I do not believe you really know what you are getting into in order to make this a successful venture. Like some others have pointed out or implied, you should have tied up some of these lose ends before jumping in. Running a business that caters to players' needs is not as simple as it seems.

 

[greedygirl]

I am open to all levels of criticism, I prefer constructive criticism, because I have a tendancy to lash back at negative criticism.

m249a--

I sense you may be growing a bit frustrated with many of the comments you're receiving regarding what you're working so hard to create.

I'll do my best to be constructive in my comments. While there's so much I'd like to comment on, in the interest of bandwidth, I'll just give my opinion on the most glaring points.

1) If you are to be taken seriously, the forum should be void of ANYTHING not directly related to the actual focus of the Online Players Union. Things such as "Rate a Picture," "Jokes," and obviously the "Hood 3000" have no relevance towards what you are trying to put forth. There's a time and a place for hot babes and bar room humour--this just isn't the place.

2) I realize you want to keep casinos at a distance, however, I do believe some involvement would be beneficial. As players, you have no true working knowledge (only heresay, really) as to security and backend issues. Having some TRUSTED casino operators who can act as something of an advisory arm is a far better idea than keeping everything at such a distance. You should be attempting to develop working relationships from all sides--the players, the Union and the casino operators. Certainly approaching this in an adversarial manner will limit your results.

3) Damian--I mean no disrespect with what I'm about to say. I've seen several instances where you've "slipped up," and written in English, as opposed to Ebonics. I KNOW you're a bright guy, and this should be your moment to let the rest of the world know it. Don't let the 'gangsta' image you've created for yourself be an additional hurdle to your goals with the Union.

4) Where the notion of boycotts are concerned, there's really no way to sugar coat things. The plain and simple fact is that in order to do this successfully, you have to have an ENORMOUS member base. And to achieve the sort of member base to effectively pull something like this off, you need HUGE traffic. I'll explain a bit further...

Speaking generously, those who would be surfing the gambling forums MAYBE compose 1% of the online gambling player base. Again, being generous, lets say that 50% of this 1% number actually backs the Union in a boycott. This small number will not impress a casino.

Because traffic is so incredibly difficult to come by, I just can't see how you'll be able to effectively get the numbers to impress a casino (with a boycott) in these early stages. Give yourselves time to fully develop this Union BEFORE you start flexing your muscles. Remember--if you fail coming out of the gate, it will be difficult to recover.

And one last bit...

m249a--if you're frustrated and annoyed by cynicism now, you may want to get yourself some thicker skin. It will only get more heated as time goes on. Bryan can certainly attest to that.

However you decide to proceed, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Casinomeister]

Speaking generously, those who would be surfing the gambling forums MAYBE compose 1% of the online gambling player base. Again, being generous, lets say that 50% of this 1% number actually backs the Union in a boycott. This small number will not impress a casino.

Actually, it's a bit higher than this. It's closer to 7% - but that still is a drop in the bucket.

 

[Petunia]

After having a quick read through I have this to say.

You need to do the following:
1) Put your plan together, and apply for a loan at the bank. If your loan is granted, you know your plan is semi-good.
2) You need to establish a name for yourself, and take yourself, and others serious.
3) You need to build a reputation as someone to be reckoned with.
4) You need backing from major names and industries.
5) You need to have clear goals and be able to set it all out for the 'future members'. You cannot just say "Come and join me against the casinos!".
6) You need to take in consideration that not everyone wants to go public as it might be an embarrassment to him or her. (Spouses and family not knowing, bosses might get uptight etc)
7) You need to be active on both sides of the coin, and understand 100% how the WHOLE industry works, not just one or two casinos.

And THAT is merely the beginning.

 

[bethug]

Petunia, ??
What does a bank loan have to do with anything?
I most likely have more money to start than most people.

Thanks for the input

 

[m249a]

Thank you again everyone for your imput.

We realize what we are getting ourselves into, and trust me my skin is plenty thick. I still have a tendancy to defend something I think is right, so.....off to the races.


Spearmaster, one would have to be foolish not to listen to what it is you have to say. On the "respected source" point I couldn't agree with you more. We understand that we will need to develop a level of crediblity before we are taken seriously. We also understand that won't happen overnight. We cannot open up shop today, and tommorow be the big boys on the block, tellin' all who come around how its going to be. IMO only time and numbers will take us to that level. We are willing to fight the fight, spend the time and money it takes to develop our concept. Time will tell if we make it or not.

Jetset, Damian and I are concerned with the "too many fingers in the pie" analogy. What I mean is this, we are hesitant to form any type of "board of directors" or member commitee, simply because we want to avoid in-fighting and the possibility of someone having flexible morals when it comes to acting in the best interest of the union as a whole. Our checks and balances, will come from the public at large as well as the more powerful and respected watchdogs and portals all ready on the web. I said it before, we are not willing to take a buck today, and lose 25 cents a month for 5 years. Damian and I cannot be bought. We respect each others opinion, and are able to have differing opinions without running the risk of dissention. Plus we work well together.

Casinomeister, again let me thank you for allowing us to lay this issue on the line in your house. The responses and opinions from all of your members, as well as you are extremely valuable, and will affect change for the better.
We used the omni fiasco as a test to see what our members reaction would be in regards to a strike. This is a perfect example of how Damian and I differ in opinion. He started the petition, and I was against it. We opened up the issue for our members to vote upon, and maybe jumped the gun a bit by spreading the message to other forums before we made a decision. Fair enough, we do not calim to be perfect, and as I said in my initial response to his petition, we were relying upon unfounded retortic in other forums for our information. This will not happen again. I understand the issues you have had in the past with opa 1&2, and hopefully Damian and I will not travel down that road as well. This is IMO a shining example of why Damian and I are quick to use the KISS method when it comes to management. Keep It Simple Stupid. We are loath to deviate from that method, and until we reach a level where that meantility becomes counter-productive, we are not going to change it either.

Greedygirl, I will not come right out and ask you to become a member, but perhaps you could read between the lines a bit .
I found your statements and opinions to be thoughtful and helpful. The jokes section and picture section are open for all to see and read, as well as reply and post in. We felt that our forum would be rather boring without interjecting some humor into it. We cannot be all things to all people, and if you don't like bar room humor, its probably best to stay out of the jokes section.
Keeping the casino operators and employees out of the dicussion and membershiip is the fundemental basis of our union. This is a players union. Not a "players union with the casino voice". This may sound harsh, and thats good, I want it to be harsh, I want our members to know that we are for them. Of course we will use every method at our disposal to mediate on behalf of a member, we just aren't really interested in having casino operators posting in our forum. That might change someday, but for now it is what it is.
Again thank you all for your imput. My time is limited this morning, so I will end with this, the players union is something Damian and I are working hard every day to develop and run, we must keep a positive and foreward looking approach to in order to have a chance......Wish us luck, and we hope to have your support as well.

 

[Petunia]

Petunia, ??
What does a bank loan have to do with anything?
I most likely have more money to start than most people.

Thanks for the input

Bethug: It teaches you how to write a propper business proposal to attract a)investors in the event you need backing and b) Creates players trust. It is not about the loan, if you read it correctly, it is about the plan!

 

[bethug]

Petunia, I run a mortgage company, which brings in 60000 to 80000 a month, That just on the loan side, on the real estate side another 60000 more or less, that dont included me flipping my investments. What I am saying I have more than enough money for the project. Also I have a partner at any time I can get money from. Which i dont see why would I



Also I just didnt pop that site up in one week, been working on it for three months and still working on it. I ask at least over 20 people for input, players and non players. Its not just about casinos, its about gambling union. Sports bettors, poker players etc.

 

[caruso]

LOL, I love the soft porn section. That coupled with the gambling system junk is just what you need to have your endeavour taken seriously.

This has to be all a wind up.

 

[BakuPT]

Let's look at the following situation: Already Damian is posting in the ads section indicating that a boycott of Omni is under consideration - or being voted on, etc.

Under what grounds are you initiating a vote for a boycott? Is it because of what has been posted here and at WOL or at _____________ (name your favorite forum). Have you rolled up your sleeves and investigated the claims yourself, or are you relying on hearsay?

Seven of the eleven claims submitted through me (yes, all forum members) have multiple accounts at Omni.

If you were boycotting this casino, (or blacklisting them, etc.) wouldn't you feel stupid? Talk about eating some yummy crow.

 

[dominique]

Let's look at the following situation: Already Damian is posting in the ads section indicating that a boycott of Omni is under consideration - or being voted on, etc.

Under what grounds are you initiating a vote for a boycott? Is it because of what has been posted here and at WOL or at _____________ (name your favorite forum). Have you rolled up your sleeves and investigated the claims yourself, or are you relying on hearsay?

Seven of the eleven claims submitted through me (yes, all forum members) have multiple accounts at Omni.

That is a very valid point.

How are you guys going to decide?

Having the members vote is not going to be a fair way of handling it at all - look at what is happening with the Omni thing. One or two unjustified boycotts and no one will believe you anymore. You need to be objective. You need to be able to speak to the casinos and have their trust so they will cooperate.

I am not sure you have covered everything here.

As far as boycootts go - I have been down that road in the affiliate community. Most all the affiliates working for percentages were outraged at having scumware steal players directly from their sites. It made many sites downright unprofitable and it was plain theft. Most agreed to boycott the casinos who used the scumware and supported it. The matter had great momentum. What happened? All the small affiliates boycotted, the larger ones did not. So the boycott had little impact. Why didn't the larger ones boycott? Because they were still making money with the boycotted casinos.

I also agree with the point that it is very difficult to attract enough players to really make an impact with a boycott - even under great conditions.

I think you will run into similair problems. Players who repeatedly win with certain casinos will not stop playing there because someone calls a boycott. They may openly support the boycott but privately play there all they like. There cannot be a picket line on the web and there is no way you can actually control this.

Again, I am in support of a player's union, but you need to dot more i's and cross more t's.

"Keep it simple, stupid" is one of my favorite sayings. But, an enterprise like this needs careful thought and planning.

 

[bethug]

BakuPT, you dont know me, cause the people that do , know me , knows i dont mess around with bad casinos.

Omni has not been voted off playersunion. It was place under vote. Which the boss said i jump the gun.

You can have something well thought out and it still can be inproved.

 

[BakuPT]

BakuPT, you dont know me, cause the people that do , know me , knows i dont mess around with bad casinos.

Omni has not been voted off playersunion. It was place under vote. Which the boss said i jump the gun.

You can have something well thought out and it still can be inproved.

But you have to agree that keeping advertising Omni at the same time that to boycott or not boycott is being discussed is not right.
It looks to me that the so called more casino oriented portal from which the webmaster makes a living acted more in the players interest.

 

[spearmaster]

On the "respected source" point I couldn't agree with you more. We understand that we will need to develop a level of crediblity before we are taken seriously. We also understand that won't happen overnight. We cannot open up shop today, and tommorow be the big boys on the block, tellin' all who come around how its going to be.

Just in case I get into trouble - there is nothing between the lines in what I said - this was primarily an observation based on Caruso's post.

For the record, as usual I am going to take a noncommital stance here - if you can make a player's union work, more power to you. I was a fan of the OPA, yet one of its biggest critics - twice. I am now a fan of eCOGRA, yet one of its biggest critics, and I only came off the fence recently, perhaps about a year after eCOGRA was established, because I have a better understanding about what their objectives are - though in all fairness I can also say that I never had any real doubt as to the integrity of the executives and board members who have proven their skills in the past.

In this particular instance - other than agreeing with Greedygirl about her observations regarding the content of the forums - I shall continue to sit on the fence and watch as the union tries to establish its credibility and achieve its objectives - with of course the hope that something will come of these efforts.

 

[jetset]

QUOTE Omni has not been voted off playersunion. It was place under vote. Which the boss said i jump the gun. UNQUOTE

Sorry to harp on this, but I really am trying to obviate potential hassles. The above is another illustration of why you need to agree and document procedures and basic rules / guidelines to ensure fair and equitable decisions all round....and operational efficiency.

Mark has already said that "striking" / boycotts are a weapon of last resort and that is a sensible approach - you need to be balanced and sure before taking extreme consumer action such as this. As others here have already opined - if you are not balanced and professional you will not achieve any level of credibility.

 

[jetset]

I missed the following remark from Mark earlier in the thread, but I would like to return to comment on it:

QUOTE Jetset, Damian and I are concerned with the "too many fingers in the pie" analogy. What I mean is this, we are hesitant to form any type of "board of directors" or member commitee, simply because we want to avoid in-fighting and the possibility of someone having flexible morals when it comes to acting in the best interest of the union as a whole. UNQUOTE

I do not believe I have suggested to you that you ought to appoint a BoD or committee. If you wish to operate a two man executive on a referendum basis of player voting, then so be it.

However, you have introduced the concept here so I will say that, properly structured, I think several experienced heads are generally better than two at looking at all sides of any issue and adding knowledge to the equation.

My point, expressed in my post above, is that a player's union is a complex and serious matter that demands detailed consideration, and that the experiences of the past should be built upon to avoid the potential for failure in the future.

 

[hahacasino]

Union is seems something for people that have a real job and get paid regularly.

Players are most broke or no job, why is a union for?

 

[Petunia]

** Bethug, as far as I am concerned, because you know about your morgage stuff does not mean you know how to plan and run a union. I was MERELY suggesting that you put your PLAN together, and it matters not HOW MUCH money you have, or who you KNOW, it matters what kind of backing you can come up with! OR do you think it is just OKAY to have pple point a finger and say "Oh, he is a joke, he bought his name" I did never even say that you 'threw up the website'. It is attitude like this that will not have me sign up with a union such as that. I don't think it is for the 'good of the pple' rather for "The prestige" of one name. I thought the idea was an okay one, I merely offered input. BUT you do not have to take it, just pay someone to do it for you then. Why not, you HAVE the money. **

 

[bethug]

Handle people biggest dream is not a easy task. Meeting all the DRE guidelines is not a easy task, do i do this by my self know, I hire someone dont mean things slip up. What company, union etc dont make a mistake,

Hahaha, if you dont have a job or broke you should not be playing at all.

Players Union Benefits

First and most obvious would of course be our player guarantee. This is rather simple, you as a registered Union Member can play at any of our sanctioned casinos, sports books or poker rooms with the security of our player guarantee. If you are ripped off by one of our sanctioned casinos, you will be paid by us. Up to $500.00USD. You must be a Union member, and register your real money account thru our website/forum. There are some terms and conditions for this insurance, but they are rather simple too. This is NOT losers insurance, this is insurance against unethical behavior towards the player.

Secondly, .we have put together an interactive forum that is centered on player issues. We have gone to great lengths to set up and run a forum that players can talk freely without ridicule, or accusations. We are here to help, and we want to help, ask your questions, offer your advice and enjoy the humor we try to inject here and there.

Also, We pay real cash in your pocket, not points etc . Real cash in are promotions. For being loyal to the union, for bring members, making great post. This will go on long at the union is running. Thanks for the input

 

[Vesuvio]

Re: the "player guarantee" - I don't see the point of this except for marketing your site. I've played at hundreds of on-line casinos, including a few borderline rogues, and still been paid by all of them. Of course occasionally a casino really does try to steal deposits, but those casinos are very, very unlikely to be among your 'sanctioned' casinos, assuming you have some standards and don't just pick those with good affiliate programs.

There's no financial guarantee about playing at any Casinomeister reputable casino, but I'd feel confident about not being ripped off by them. Sites like this one also have a genuine reputation and influence in the industry. I don't see how your new forum can add anything to that. If it's just another site to try and share affiliate income among players then there are others that have been around much longer and are more professional. Re: the idea of boycotts, I think Caruso's right. Players really do ignore warnings (myself included), if they're chasing a bonus and think they'll still get paid eventually, so I can't see that being a way of affecting casinos. This is an industry where everyone's motivated by selfishness & greed (our better qualities get channelled into other activities ), so I don't see how any genuine 'union' stands a chance.

Sorry to be negative - I'm willing to believe you have the best interests of players at heart, it's just that your site doesn't do anything to advance those interests. The ideal situation would be to have genuine regulation in the industry, but as that's not going to happen sites like Casinomeister are our best bet for now.

 

[Petunia]

Hahaha, if you dont have a job or broke you should not be playing at all.

** okay ** Edited: I guess deep down we all want to be little Bryans! *grin*

 

[bethug]

Petunia, i dont know why you have a problem with me, but it sad.

If you dont have a job or should i say income coming in or broke you should not be playing peroid , has nothing to do with the union at all. Plan common since

Yes it a elite club we, dont want fraudlant players joing or people that gamble with there rent or mortgage money, any one else of age can join

 

[Freudian]

To be honest, this seems like a normal affiliate thing where the affiliate helps when their players have a problem with a casino. I simply don't see where the union part comes in when the explicit goal is to make money for the two affiliates.

Add in the silly blackjack system and we have the most bizarre interpretation of the word union ever. I don't think the guys behind it are bad people but surely they can't expect it to work as anything beyond a banner farm?