player's union discussion

[Casinomeister]

I am not sure what caused the demise of OPA1 and OPA2, but whatever there is to learn is probably worth learning.

A must read for anyone who wants to know what happened:
https://www.casinomeister.com/static/newsletter/2003/10january2003.html

 

[cipher]

A must read for anyone who wants to know what happened:
https://www.casinomeister.com/static/newsletter/2003/10january2003.html

That was a good read Bryan. Have a good one.

 

[jetset]

One of the basic things you should do (and we were blinded by idealism in the OPA and didn't do it) is to clearly document your structure and the restrictions it places on arbitrary and individual activities and decisions, especially at management level.

This sort of document is usually called a charter or a constitution, but if you're not enamoured of the idea at least have some written rules that bind the management and leave no room for misunderstanding.

Things change, especially when you start out bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. It can be a tough, cynical world when/if big money comes into the picture and what seems impossible today can be a problem tomorrow - unless you guard against it from the beginning.

 

[bethug]

I recall the opa problems, and i also recall getting banned for speaking up. There was to many secrets, to me the opa was not a playersunion , to much stuff was keep secret.

I support the opa at first until i started to see all them playtec pop up, if you say you a non profit be one.

 

[bethug]

Jetset you right
We handle that problem right off the bat, the players can vote a casino on or off.

Like i said a few people already tired to buy me out, the problem with me is , i have a little money already. We will not sale out or do people wrong, or keep secrets

 

[m249a]

HEY!!! nobody tried to buy me out....WTF.

Damian keeps saying and I will reiterate the issue as well. We are not for sale. I don't ever really see how "big money" could come into play with either one of us. The fact of the matter is this, we will put the issues out on the table for our members to see and debate/vote upon. We will take clear and decisive action if and when needed.
We do not make ANY ATTEMPT WHAT-SO-EVER to conceal our desire to make a profit. We have advertisers, we will always have advertisers. They have and will continue to meet a strict list of critera in order to become advertisers on our sites. We will negotiate exclusive promotions for our members, and promote those promotions to our members. We will continue to add a LARGE precentage of our profit to our player insurance policy.

The very second we deviate from our basic core values of "for the player by the player" I.E. sell out......we know we will lose all of our hard earned crediblity........and yes our profit as well. That fact alone is enough of a reason to maintain our principles and ethics. We would be fools to take a dollar today, and lose 25 cents a month for 5 years. I assure you we are not foolish enough to do something as idiotic as that.

 

[caruso]

Understand one thing and read more carefully, anyone who tries to put words in my mouth: I don't think it will work and I think the time could be better spent BUT I'm not remotely against this. I'm for anything on principle that seeks to help my fellow players. But operating on a "boycott" basis, seeking to affect the casinos' bottom line by witholding player patronage just isn't realistic because players do not listen to warnings. That is a stone cold, proven, irrefutable fact. Players do not heed warnings.

Sadly, the only way to have muscle in the industry is to have business contacts. Bryan has muscle. Cindy and Ted have muscle. They have reciprocal relationships with the casinos and have the power to question their business partners and expect an answer because of the reciprocal relationship. There is the inevitable downside of the compromise involved, but there's always a price to pay and it's not too steep in this case. The current setup isn't at all bad.

The GREATEST single asset that could befall the player community would be the implementation of the Fairdice project - so it comes as no surprise to my cynical self that it seems to have died a death. No email or website responses and the phone number doesn't seem to work. I figure one of the Big Boys made them an offer that was too good to turn down. If anyone has any better information I'd like to hear it.

 

[Casinomeister]

I recall the opa problems, and i also recall getting banned for speaking up. There was to many secrets, to me the opa was not a playersunion , to much stuff was keep secret..

That's total bullshit. I was one of the main people running the OPA and I never kept anything from anybody - did you read the link to my newsletter?

You were banned (and I was the one who banned you) for spewing a bunch of stupid and insulting crap in the forum. Simple as that.

I still have our email exchange if you want me to post it.

And I still have the email addresses etc. from the membership data base. 1800+. Seems like a union to me...

 

[bethug]

Man i should u repect, and i will keep my word, Have i not keep my word,
But people brought it to your attention way before hand that your man was up to know good and you took a while to drop him yes or no sir

I was talking about getting banned from wol for speaking about why opa had playtec and the reef casino mess, not getting banned from the opa forum

 

[m249a]

Of course we understand that we will never reach 100% compliance from our members to "boycott". We understand that some people are going to say its a bad idea, no matter what we say or do. Thats ok, we are going to try anyway.

 

[bethug]

You can visit wol and see the post i made for the opa for and againt , when i found out it was not non profit like the players was told it was. I question. And question about the non profit status, bam. Man i have no reason to lie.

People told you that your boy was up to no good and u didnt believe it.

As i see right now more and more you going to the casino side, not saying you dont help. but that what i see, since u want to jump me

 

[big_mac]

This is just my honest opinion....

...but I think that you should take down the onlineplayersunion.com website until you have decided exactly what you are doing with it.
I think that you will have a real problem gaining credibility with the site looking the way it does, and it could hurt any future attempts that you have at launching a serious organisation.

It is poorly laid out, particularly poorly written, packed with advertisements and is over-zealous in it's tone (some examples below).

It does appear that the 'hood 3000 system' is an important feature of the message board, as it has more than half of all the posts in the casino section.
As I am sure that you have experienced, rightly or wrongly, some people will see the words 'casino' and 'system' and then won't take anything else that you have to say seriously. If you don't want to put these players off, then you will need to completely seperate the 'players' union' side from that of your betting system.

Although your promise to refund up to $500 is undoubtedly generous, I find that the 'terms' relating to it are onerous.

I would definitely like to see some sort of serious players' union succeed, but this needs a serious rethink, and a more professional attitude, if it's going to go anywhere.

I mean, why on earth do you have a section for pictures of women who aren't wearing much? What has that got to do with a players' union?

---
some examples of content that I believe looks unprofessional:-

'Hood 3000 system - The best system to bet online casinos, that the casinos don't want you to know'
'This system is a must if you not winning over a $1000.00 a month with out a bonus'
'we can join together and with one voice announce to the industry, we will fight back '
'None of them offer anything more then lip service to legitimate player issues'
'We are in negotiation RIGHT NOW with our sponsers to provide EXCLUSIVE promotions for union members......Keep checking its coming soon and it will be HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! '
'If you know any other crack head casinos email us and we will add with proof'
'If it should be determined you are a fraudulent player, it will be open season on your ASS.'

But I did like this in the 'newbees' section.

'Ignore gimmicks, cheap side bets, and snake-oil systems for "Winning Big At Your Favorite Online Casino". Study the real odds and gear your play towards what really works and allows you to have the most fun!'

 

[dominique]

Now let's not start the old OPA fights again.

This is not productive, and it isn't all that relevant, except for learning from the mistakes made.

Jetset is correct, a charter is needed. Things need to be spelled out ahead of time. By the time there is a problem it's too late.

 

[m249a]

Folks, we are just starting out, we realize from the get go we are not going to be able to please everyone the world over. Thank you for your opinion about how poorly laid out and how poor the content is. Point taken. You don't care for the site or the forum. As far as "packed with advertisers" I do take exception. There are 2 count em' 2 banners on our forum. I supose you would like to see only one, or maybe none at all. The main site has several banners and choices for people to see.

As far as a charter, we will take that under immediate consideration. I for one really don't see the need for a charter, since we plan to take any and all actions directlly to our members.

Terms and conditions for the player insurance are more then generous, and leave little room for player fraud. If you disagree, please post what you think would be a fair list of t&c's.

 

[lanidar]

Look ...
You MUST give them credit for trying.
Win, lose or draw, at least they went out there and are putting the best effort they have to attempt to make it succeed.
And they're taking flak for it.
How about some encouraging words?

Personallly, I'd LOVE to see it work.
We all started out small. Take this very site. I don't have a clue to how many posters there are registered here.
Now, do you think Bryan started with thousands of registrants?
I'm sure he worked his ass off to succeed.
Look what he has now.

Let them learn by trial and error and mean time some favorable input surely will help.

Go get 'em guys!!!

 

[dominique]

I for one really don't see the need for a charter, since we plan to take any and all actions directlly to our members.

There, that is point one of your charter.

Will you have votes? You will need to find an impartial and audited venue for that, forum votes are easily rigged from the backend, as I found out the hard way. Or will only public posts count as votes? The more you think about it, the more things will come to mind that need to be settled ahead of time.

 

[Stanford]

Look ...
You MUST give them credit for trying.
Win, lose or draw, at least they went out there and are putting the best effort they have to attempt to make it succeed.
And they're taking flak for it.
How about some encouraging words?

There is some criticism, but that doesn't mean they don't offer a valuable service, so I agree with you Lanidar.

And when we are talking about charters, seals and defined standards - it doesn't mean that is what bethung and m249a has to do. Those are concepts I think importent but there can be more than one organazation.

The organazation I have in mind is not being done. Nor was it done with OPA1 and OPA2. I don't know if it ever will be. In the meantime, kudos to those that are engaged in the fight.

And I am enjoying the discussion. So thanks to all those participating. Seems to me that there is some passion around this idea.

Stanford

 

[jetset]

QUOTE As i see right now more and more you going to the casino side, not saying you dont help. but that what i see, since u want to jump me UNQUOTE

Damian, I'm afraid imo that's nonsense and you must know it. Much of Bryan's cred with everyone, enabling him to mediate so successfully is the fact that he tries to take a fair and balanced approach and is equally quick to condemn rogue casinos or fraudulent players...and there are still too many of both.

Balance is essential if you are going to truly succeed instead of simply play to the audience.

I would hazard the guess that he's probably resolved more cases than most, and this sort of unfounded criticism is unfortunate.

 

[bethug]

The hood section of the site is big, due to the fact i get 3 to 5 emails aday asking me how i play and can u please post more screen shots. Believe it or not people. Players ask me for them.

Mark and me have ask for input, this is not a dictorship, its a union. Email your input to mark and we will work on it.

I try to make the site to carter to everyone, entertainment, bonus lovers, etc
We have men there for the ladies too, if you dont like to see pictures you can skip that part of the site.

Plus we back it up with insurance

Jetset, that what i see and others, I am not the only one i talk to many people. I know bryan does a great job, But to be negative right off the back is wrong. I back him fully and any other real site that help players.

Pass month been working on a board of 5 to 7 people, if you like to be on that board email me or mark

 

[jetset]

Stanford, I think this is the point right here:

"The organazation I have in mind is not being done. Nor was it done with OPA1 and OPA2."

Try to avoid the mistakes of the past to make a better job of the future; think things through and listen to honest criticism that may help build a better and safer union.

 

[jetset]

QUOTE Jetset, that what i see and others, I am not the only one i talk to many people.UNQUOTE

Then I would suggest you are perhaps talking to uninformed people, because Bryan is certainly not casino-biased imv.

It may be frustrating when you have a project you are trying to get off the ground to be faced with criticism, but this goes with the territory, and in many cases it is people offering equally strongly held views to the contrary, or simply trying to give real input that can be beneficial if you are prepared to listen rather than learn in hindsight.

 

[m249a]

I am open to all levels of criticism, I prefer constructive criticism, because I have a tendancy to lash back at negative criticism. I knew what I was getting myself into when I asked Bryan for premission to talk about this here. In fact I went so far as to lay it out on the line over a sucks too. I, and I dare speak for Damian as well, want to create something that will have an absolute positive effect on the online gamming environment. We welcome your imput.

 

[bethug]

Jetset i like input, but for someone to say its going to fail is not cool.
I have support this site for a good year.
I am ready for criticism, but not for people i support saying right off the back it going to fail

 

[big_mac]

As far as "packed with advertisers" I do take exception. There are 2 count em' 2 banners on our forum. I supose you would like to see only one, or maybe none at all.

I have no idea how many would be appropriate, I only gave my opinion as I saw it. I was referring to the main site, not the forum - there are at least a dozen on the first page. It probably looks worse than it is because they are intermingled with the text - I prefer advertisements to be seperate from the site content, but that's just my opinion.

Terms and conditions for the player insurance are more then generous, and leave little room for player fraud. If you disagree, please post what you think would be a fair list of t&c's.

The major problem with the terms, as I see it, is that you make it clear that you will act in whatever way you decide to, without their being any checks, balances, or appeals.

That does not inspire confidence.

Now, for instance, if there was a right to appeal to a committee that was chosen exclusively by the members, that would be different.

If a casino has comitted fraud against a player, would you really refuse to help him and list him as fraudulent because he did a chargeback?

When a player has a complaint, he has to run the risk that you could also decide against him, for no good reason, and without any appeal. Then to add further insult, you would also list him as a fraudulent player.

And why do you demand the right to use a name and likeness for advertising? That comes across as very heavy-handed and intrusive.

I wish you well in your venture, and the only reason I have taken the time to reply is so that I can try and help you to make it successful.
But I honestly don't think that it's a great start.

 

[m249a]

If we charged union dues, then yes we would have checks and balances in place so players who thought they were wrongly decided against could appeal. We do not charge a fee to be a member, therefore it is money put up by someone else. Namely us. So yes, our decision would be final and not open to appeal. Again, since it is our money, we do reserve the right to use the players name (handle) or likeness for advertising. These are very simplistic terms, we had to make them easy to understand, and tight, to avoid litigation from players who thought we owed them money because they lost at a casino.

Now, if we refused to pay a players legitimate claim what do you think would happen? Our name would be drug thru the mud, we would be tarred and feathered, and run out of town on a rail. Or as the meister likes to say, drug out into the street and shot. Again, we are not willing to risk our reputation for the sake of a couple of bucks. We are in this for the long haul, we fully expect our member base to continue its brisk growth and our union to gain the level of credibility it deserves.

The chargeback issue is a gray area. I will concede that much. We felt it was necessary to have that clause in the terms, to help avoid fraudlent claims from players.

thank you again for your imput.