beravek7 VS Fortune room

[maphesto]

It seems people are missing the fact that Reel Gems has the respin function, most likely he only respun one reel @3.18 hence the odd amount. This is EXTREMELY low variance, pretty much the same as betting red and black at the same time. I really doubt the casino would have had a problem if he started with big bets on Beach Babes, then continued to complete all the wagering even at 30% bets on the same slot.

And now you have outed that trick! The thing is that I think you are right, it's not the betsize 3.18€ that is the problem. BUT they do not have this machine covered in T&C:s.

OP, don't post more, do your PAB. I hope you get paid and that FL make their rules better and more detailed.

 

[sigothx1]

Obviously AP, no recreational gambler plays 10% of his deposit per spin, it makes literally no sense.

However, i do agree the term is not clear, and on that basis he should be paid, betat, as usual, Clarify it without the need to even ask support ( something i feel strongly the OP should have done, and as an AP player especially he should have known to do this the moment he hit a decent win )

He'd have a better case if the CS came back and said they cant clarify the term, im sure the casino can fall back on another term every casino has, something on the lines of "you agree that at any time and without reason X casino can close your account and forfeit your money" obviously not put like that, but along those lines.

i take issue that on a bonus deposit the casino even allows £10 spins, that is just going to attract AP players all over the place, they should have a £6.25 per spin max like most casinos do to deter AP if it really is not accepted.

I feel the OP should be paid on this occasion, and the casino to change its terms from today. That to me if the fairest result.

However, in regards to the OP, dont think for a second people dont know it was AP, Anyone can see it was, and casino's do frown on it, you may get paid this time due to wording of a term, but next time you may not be so lucky.

 

[skiny]

I'm not even going to bother reading all these posts because the entire thing is a load of bullshit.

I don't care what the casinos like to tell themselves but the reality is we're gambling to WIN. Why would we not wager the most advantageous way?

There is no such thing as an "irregular betting pattern." If I want to bet my entire deposit on one spin in roulette and then play 9 cent spins in Thunderstruck 1 for the next 3 weeks, tough. It's my money. Casinos should not be telling anyone they're not betting the way the casino would like them to. It's not the casino's business how much I wager or what game I play, bonus or not.

There is no such thing as a professional slot player. Slot games are designed to make you lose. The longer you play the less likely you are to come out ahead. People play slot games to grind out the wage requirements after they win playing higher variance games because they're probably going to lose slower. Not because they can't lose. It's not cheating the casino. It's mathematical common sense.

What it all boils down to is casinos are either not capable of simply don't want to create bonuses that can't be taken advantage of by the players who have enough sense and ambition to get around the wage requirements. Too bad.

When's the last time you heard someone here bitching that they had their winnings confiscated at 3Dice because of irregular betting patterns. I can take a bonus there and do what the hell I want with it.

How often does someone show up here with winnings confiscated by 32Red for advantage play?

If you can't figure out how to create a bonus system that doesn't bite you in the ass then hire someone who can. And in the mean time unless someone blatantly disregards a clearly set rule meaning specific games that are not allowed or exact dollar amounts that have been exceeded then pay up and stop whining that your players are smarter than you.

It's 2014 for Christ sake. Why does software even still exist where bonus rules can be broken? When people write programs that allow the user to do things they're not supposed to do it's called a bug.

Fix it.

 

[dunover]

I'm not even going to bother reading all these posts because the entire thing is a load of bullshit.

I don't care what the casinos like to tell themselves but the reality is we're gambling to WIN. Why would we not wager the most advantageous way?

Yeah, and they are gambling to win too!

There is no such thing as an "irregular betting pattern." If I want to bet my entire deposit on one spin in roulette and then play 9 cent spins in Thunderstruck 1 for the next 3 weeks, tough. It's my money. Casinos should not be telling anyone they're not betting the way the casino would like them to. It's not the casino's business how much I wager or what game I play, bonus or not.

Not in this case-it was the casino's bonus money......No rules as you say for YOUR money, but for theirs, yes. So they can tell you what they like in their terms about rules to play it.

There is no such thing as a professional slot player. Slot games are designed to make you lose. The longer you play the less likely you are to come out ahead. People play slot games to grind out the wage requirements after they win playing higher variance games because they're probably going to lose slower. Not because they can't lose. It's not cheating the casino. It's mathematical common sense.

As Chopley and VWM and I will tell you, there is, especially in the UK. Now referring to online games (except AWPs) you are correct due to the 96% RTP. This however, can be manipulated by clever use of the bonus system to gain an EV+ edge. This was a classic example of the tactic, a player taking a punt at creating (via the bonus) a situation where the maths meant he couldn't lose.

What it all boils down to is casinos are either not capable of simply don't want to create bonuses that can't be taken advantage of by the players who have enough sense and ambition to get around the wage requirements. Too bad.

Incorrect. Casinos could easily provide bonuses that players could hardly ever win on, but that would kill the idea. So we have bonuses that players can win on. So this needs perpetuating via protection from AP. If AP's were unchecked, even at your 3Dice, you wouldn't see a fair decent bonus.

When's the last time you heard someone here bitching that they had their winnings confiscated at 3Dice because of irregular betting patterns. I can take a bonus there and do what the hell I want with it.

How often does someone show up here with winnings confiscated by 32Red for advantage play?

There was a case at 32red a while back on here, but they (fairly) chucked an extra WR on the player when he went over, to reset the disadvantage they had.

If you can't figure out how to create a bonus system that doesn't bite you in the ass then hire someone who can. And in the mean time unless someone blatantly disregards a clearly set rule meaning specific games that are not allowed or exact dollar amounts that have been exceeded then pay up and stop whining that your players are smarter than you.

It's 2014 for Christ sake. Why does software even still exist where bonus rules can be broken? When people write programs that allow the user to do things they're not supposed to do it's called a bug.

Fix it.

Yes, it's 2014 and we have the internet - if any casino was allowing certain play which made profit likely. it would spread like herpes in a knocking-shop. Then it would be stopped very quickly, along with your bonuses. You forget the bonus system is an end-user matter and cannot be integrated into say Quickfire and IGT slots by the vendor - it's purely a financial matter given and monitored by the site itself and unique to it on many occasions. Thus they can provide one or not, and make the rules up they like if they do. Lastly, how on earth would any bonus be invented that could allow a player to bet 10 on one slot, and then flag it when he changes to 3 on a different slot?

 

[hakapuku]

Dunover says : "Not in this case-it was the casino's bonus money......No rules as you say for YOUR money, but for theirs, yes. So they can tell you what they like in their terms about rules to play it. "

Let me remind everybody that ,according to OP- Fortune room not only confiscated the winnings but also player's deposit of 150 e. And this not a fraud case, not a multiple accounts case. You just make the vague non-specific rules then you confiscate whatever you want and whenever you want. Must be a very profitable business for FL.

 

[Casinomeister]

Dunover : "Not in this case-it was the casino's bonus money......No rules as you say for YOUR money, but for theirs, yes. So they can tell you what they like in their terms about rules to play it. "

Let me remind everybody that ,according to OP- Fortune room not only confiscated the winnings but also player's deposit of 150 e. You make the vague non specific rules then you confiscate whatever you want and whenever you want. Must be a very profitable business for FL.

Just be aware that you do not know the whole story here, and neither do I. We have seen this time and time again where a newbie poster begins a "they confiscated my winnings for vague terms" thread, and it turns out the guy purposely was attempting to rally the torch and pitchfork gang. How often has is happened that these guys were working with a group of players doing the same thing? Way more often than not. I'm not saying this is the case, but we won't find out until he submits his PAB and we can approach the casino with it.

Also, If I were you, I would not act like a know-it-all until you truly do. You should be especially cautious keeping in mind your posting history and past infractions. That was a fair warning.

 

[Nifty29]

IMO

I'm a stickler for terms. Always have been. If you accept the terms, then you accept the terms. The time to decide you don't understand or like them is BEFORE you accept them, not after.

If the OP wasn't clear about what constitutes "substantially", and they obviously were NOT, they should have ASKED the casino FIRST. It's not rocket science.

On another note, I don't believe non-specific terms are acceptable. I don't personally think that the FL term mentioned here is acceptable. If FL don't want a certain type of play, they need to SPECIFY the "line" that, if crossed, qualifies as that certain type of play e.g. reducing bets by more than 50%, not betting more than $10, etc etc.

The way I see it, this is actually TWO issues:

1. The OP did NOT read and understand the terms and conditions, even though they confirmed that they DID by creating an account and accepting the bonus and it's relevant terms. If one doesn't understand, one shouldn't play. Simples. No sympathy for the OP here on that count. The OP took a RISK by "interpreting" the terms subjectively, which is always a recipe for disaster.

2. FL have a wishy-washy anti-AP bonus term that, IMO, doesn't meet accreditation standards, and should be changed. Come up with limits/boundaries that you're happy to accept, and state them clearly. Again....simples. FL need to fix this. It does not, however, excuse the OP, as they accepted this term without understanding it nor clarifying it...hence IMO it is two seperate issues.


I think a good solution in this case would be to restore the OP's deposit + bonus AND clarify/amend that term to avoid future confusion.

 

[hakapuku]

Ok, I base my conclusions on the OP's first post. There casino representative clearly states the reason for confiscating. It has nothing to do with anything else
but so called "irregular betting". If there is any other side of this story- why would the representative hide it from the OP and invent all kind of absurd reasons instead?
Anyway, I will try my best not to post anything else in this thread. Wish the OP to be paid what he won!

 

[skiny]

Yes, it's 2014 and we have the internet - if any casino was allowing certain play which made profit likely. it would spread like herpes in a knocking-shop. Then it would be stopped very quickly, along with your bonuses. You forget the bonus system is an end-user matter and cannot be integrated into say Quickfire and IGT slots by the vendor - it's purely a financial matter given and monitored by the site itself and unique to it on many occasions. Thus they can provide one or not, and make the rules up they like if they do. Lastly, how on earth would any bonus be invented that could allow a player to bet 10 on one slot, and then flag it when he changes to 3 on a different slot?

Yes, you most certainly can integrate bonus restrictions into the software. Nobody can tell me for one second that it can't be done. And until that is done nobody can tell me for one second that casinos can't create bonuses that don't invite this so called "advantage play" because we know reputable casinos that do it.

The casino chooses to offer these bonuses and the casino chooses to leave the terms open to interpretation.

I have no sympathy.

 

[KasinoKing]

Yes, you most certainly can integrate bonus restrictions into the software. Nobody can tell me for one second that it can't be done.

Rival Gaming have been doing it for years. Is everyone else saying they are more sophisticated and resourceful than MicroGaming?

KK

 

[skiny]

Rival Gaming have been doing it for years. Is everyone else saying they are more sophisticated and resourceful than MicroGaming?

KK

I'm not an online gamer but I'm fairly certain if a bunch of geeks can create an entire virtual world where thousands of people can simultaneously sit in front of their computers and be virtually shopping in stores that keep an inventory and know how much money you have, fighting with a choice of weapons knowing how many hits with each weapon every player in the virtual world can take before dying and storing and using a vast array of items for a multitude of different purposes while keeping track of scores and levels and map coordinates and clothes and armour and what colour everyone's hair and eyes are....

Someone can create a casino that recognizes you have a bonus balance and says "You can't play that game" or "You can only bet 5 dollars."

If I ran a casino I would WANT software that stops people from breaking the rules. Wouldn't that make my job that much easier?

But again, if I couldn't have that I wouldn't create bonuses that invite so called "advantage players." (People smarter than me.)

"Here's a 100% deposit bonus but please don't bet too much at once on roulette before you start playing slot games. Don't worry though, we'll let you know what constitutes 'too much' if you win. Good luck!"

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes, it's 2014 and we have the internet - if any casino was allowing certain play which made profit likely. it would spread like herpes in a knocking-shop. Then it would be stopped very quickly, along with your bonuses. You forget the bonus system is an end-user matter and cannot be integrated into say Quickfire and IGT slots by the vendor - it's purely a financial matter given and monitored by the site itself and unique to it on many occasions. Thus they can provide one or not, and make the rules up they like if they do. Lastly, how on earth would any bonus be invented that could allow a player to bet 10 on one slot, and then flag it when he changes to 3 on a different slot?

The bonus system, despite being an end user matter, has become such an important part of the online casino industry that the vendors SHOULD have made their products "end user friendly" by now. Both players and casino hope to win, and of course, both play to win in their different ways. We have APs, but we also have casinos that REALLY push the boundaries of ethical marketing so as to lure in the player. Just as APs duck and dive when they get caught out, so do the casinos - making plausible excuses such as "it's impossible to police our affiliates", or "we hired an outside contractor who let us down".

If casinos really put the work in, and got the cooperation of the vendors, they could come up with a bonus system that more or less wiped out the scope for advantage play, yet managed to retain the recreational players.

The biggest problem of all is the practice of giving the biggest and most +EV boni to the new player, leaving the loyal player to pick up the scraps. With FL, loyal players are lucky to get regular 30% offers, whereas new players get at least 100%. The AP has realised that being a "professional new customer" is the best strategy for coming out on top. It should be the loyal player that has the better chance of coming out on top.

 

[Brockie]

Being fairly new to this site this thread has taught me not to play anywhere with vague terms! (not that I ever have!)

I would like to see the outcome of say 1000 people trying this though, playing Beach Babes at £10 a spin to try and build a balance to be able to "advantage play" I would think the casino would still be very much ahead in terms of the majority of people would bust in no time at all.

That said I can see the op is so called "advantage playing" by playing a game with little or no chance of losing why not play a slot that would have still resulted in a cashout and none of this thread would have even existed!

 

[lovator]

lets face it,anyone can be called advantage player,so what they say we should implement somekind autobot that clicks automaticly and even ..

is this the message this casino wants to send?
if this is the truth then this is terrible,he deposited 150 euros and it was taken from him for funny reason,he decreased bet from 10 to 3 whaaat? he must be a cheater,lets face it,he was winning,and as casino you must understand people lose and sometimes they win,if you want people to lose it all the time and not winning at all say it,in my opinion,if this shows to be the truth and op tells the truth then this casino menager is too inexperienced to run such buisness

 

[KasinoKing]

That said I can see the op is so called "advantage playing" by playing a game with little or no chance of losing why not play a slot that would have still resulted in a cashout and none of this thread would have even existed!

Probably because the player knows NOTHING about slots and is just following a guide on some "Bonus Whoring" site somewhere. A site whose owner is picking up commission from when the players fail, but not losing commission when the casino cancels the winnings for breach of terms, putting him in the same Win-Win position as the casino.

KK

 

[vinylweatherman]

Probably because the player knows NOTHING about slots and is just following a guide on some "Bonus Whoring" site somewhere. A site whose owner is picking up commission from when the players fail, but not losing commission when the casino cancels the winnings for breach of terms, putting him in the same Win-Win position as the casino.

KK

Casinos allow these sites to exist by funding them through affiliate deals. If casinos decided that sites that promote these methods to players could not gain commissions, there would be far fewer of them around. The few that remain may well decide to become subscription based, rather than affiliate commission based. This will help the casinos by making such information harder to find.

There is worse, some casinos go as far as to offer special deals to whoring sites whereby they will give the APs an even bigger welcome bonus just for signing up through said site. Newbies who do not really understand WHY what they are being told to do works, and thus not see a problem with it, can be lured in by the bigger bonuses on offer through the site, as opposed to signing up directly.

A couple of sites go even further, hosting discussions about gnoming and how to get past the fraud detection systems. Often in a "private forum", but with the criteria for access being straight forward, such as "whore 10 casinos through us, and you get access to the REALLY good info in the private forum". The promise of making money would attract many newbies into the realms of "bonus abuse", and possibly even player fraud.

The experienced players know that any method found on public fora have probably been busted by most casinos ages ago, and this might in part explain the steady flow of newbies who get caught out by these "irregular play" rules.

 

[paul7388]

Wonder if he had lost on the 20 spins at £10 on beach babes then played reel gems at £3 a spin till he lost everything if the casino would have contacted him saying your betting pattern is not acceptable so we have returned your deposit to your account without the bonus. Of course they wouldn't have . Bit I don't get is why play beach babes at £10 a spin if you are trying to abuse a bonus as that's a slot where you could quite easily have lost the lot in a couple of minutes. End of day someones bet big and had a good win so decided to play a lower stake on a different slot to get a cashout, name someone that wouldn't do the same .

 

[dunover]

Wonder if he had lost on the 20 spins at £10 on beach babes then played reel gems at £3 a spin till he lost everything if the casino would have contacted him saying your betting pattern is not acceptable so we have returned your deposit to your account without the bonus. Of course they wouldn't have . Bit I don't get is why play beach babes at £10 a spin if you are trying to abuse a bonus as that's a slot where you could quite easily have lost the lot in a couple of minutes. End of day someones bet big and had a good win so decided to play a lower stake on a different slot to get a cashout, name someone that wouldn't do the same .

Hard to prove a negative, isn't it? Of course they wouldn't, because his play didn't change the spirit of the bonus to EV+ by the results of the games/high-stakes he bet. Therefore he never got to the 'drop to £3 stage' with a large amount which flagged their bonus abuse alert.

As for refunding the deposit, maybe, but if they do it sends the message out 'abuse our bonuses and cash out if we don't spot you, if we do then you get your money back'.

I think most members on here wouldn't 'do the same'. Watch Chopleys vids, look at Rolastan and Blaothons DoA videos where they play the bonuses out at smallish and consistent stakes and always get paid. And if people on here are thinking of doing the same, let this thread warn them that likely they'll be keel-hauled for it.

 

[The Viking]

Hard to prove a negative, isn't it? Of course they wouldn't, because his play didn't change the spirit of the bonus to EV+ by the results of the games/high-stakes he bet. Therefore he never got to the 'drop to £3 stage' with a large amount which flagged their bonus abuse alert.

As for refunding the deposit, maybe, but if they do it sends the message out 'abuse our bonuses and cash out if we don't spot you, if we do then you get your money back'.

I think most members on here wouldn't 'do the same'. Watch Chopleys vids, look at Rolastan and Blaothons DoA videos where they play the bonuses out at smallish and consistent stakes and always get paid. And if people on here are thinking of doing the same, let this thread warn them that likely they'll be keel-hauled for it.

So meaning because for the last few years i have only bet between .90 and 1.50 all of a sudden i feel lucky and figure i bet 3-6 bux a spin
i would be trown out and my winnings confisticated because i have never made a bet that big before

 

[paul7388]

the player had his deposit and winnings confiscated supposedly. Ive said I don't agree with it as terms are said out as such that many players ould be accused of bonus abuse. But the casinos terms state ........Any irregular play will result in immediate disqualification from a bonus and the casino reserves the rights to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings. Irregular play will be dealt with in the same manner as professional play, as detailed in clauses 1.3. and 1.4. of our General Terms and Conditions . No where does it state and since you tries to con us we are keeping your deposit as well. So if they genuinely feel that hes trying to abuse bonus he should have his deposit returned and banned from casino

 

[dunover]

The bonus system, despite being an end user matter, has become such an important part of the online casino industry that the vendors SHOULD have made their products "end user friendly" by now. Both players and casino hope to win, and of course, both play to win in their different ways. We have APs, but we also have casinos that REALLY push the boundaries of ethical marketing so as to lure in the player. Just as APs duck and dive when they get caught out, so do the casinos - making plausible excuses such as "it's impossible to police our affiliates", or "we hired an outside contractor who let us down".

If casinos really put the work in, and got the cooperation of the vendors, they could come up with a bonus system that more or less wiped out the scope for advantage play, yet managed to retain the recreational players.

The biggest problem of all is the practice of giving the biggest and most +EV boni to the new player, leaving the loyal player to pick up the scraps. With FL, loyal players are lucky to get regular 30% offers, whereas new players get at least 100%. The AP has realised that being a "professional new customer" is the best strategy for coming out on top. It should be the loyal player that has the better chance of coming out on top.

The thing is it really has to be the software provider that provides the means to enable 'idiot-proof' or 'AP-proof' bonuses. Skiny seems to think the vendor (casino) with a few keystrokes can action any permutation of bonus permissions. If it were that easy they'd all do it, because as Skiny said it would be less problematic for the casinos in the long run.
Rival supply their software with vendor choices for RTP and other settings including bonuses. This needs to be done for other software too - the site could simply programme a form for any bonus they offer (say WR 40 x, max stake 6, max digression allowed from initial starting spin stake +/- 33%, max stake for any single line play etc.)
Any player awarded this bonus would see their games warn them at any stage of the WR of any attempt to breach those restrictions and stop the game from being spun until set within the limits.
This means the casino could stop any play they considered AP by setting the appropriate restrictions.

 

[dunover]

So meaning because for the last few years i have only bet between .90 and 1.50 all of a sudden i feel lucky and figure i bet 3-6 bux a spin
i would be trown out and my winnings confisticated because i have never made a bet that big before

Where on earth did I say that?
We are talking a single NEW PLAYER deposit with BONUS here, decreasing stakes after a big-stake win gained with BONUS funds granted by the casino, not an established player as per your example who suddenly decides to have a session at an increased stake.
I wish people wouldn't go off at a tangent..

And, in general I must add (as people here seem to ignore this point I mentioned once before in the discussion) -

Almost all casinos state in their terms, or bonus terms '.......the bonus is intended to increase playtime and enjoyment of our games......'

Please, all those lambasting me here, tell me HOW betting £10 a spin with a 200 or 300 balance (consisting of at least half bonus funds) and potentially spunking your whole balance in 90 seconds is in accordance with those terms, irrespective of bet limits laid also?????

READ THE TERMS PROPERLY AND ASK QUESTIONS TO C.S. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM OR WANT CLARIFICATION FFS!

 

[zap987]

Bit I don't get is why play beach babes at £10 a spin if you are trying to abuse a bonus as that's a slot where you could quite easily have lost the lot in a couple of minutes. End of day someones bet big and had a good win so decided to play a lower stake on a different slot to get a cashout, name someone that wouldn't do the same .

The reason to play the big bets is because that is where the actual advantage is gained. In fact, if every player played as big bets as allowed with every bonus, the casinos would have to stop offering them. The advantage is all in the fact that you will bust out very often, and when you bust out you complete very little of the wagering requirement, and when you don't wager you don't pay the house edge which means the casino doesn't make the money back. The lower bet after getting a good win doesn't really change anything with regards to EV, it only reduces variance to make sure to get a cash out.

 

[hakapuku]

Dunover, you seem to be very active in this thread. You made 11 posts of total 48 (It is more than 1/5). The problem is nobody likes what you write. You have only 4 likes ( 3 of which come from Nifty). May be it would be a better idea if you send your thoughts straight to Nifty's PM box? I never read anything more prejudiced in my whole life.

 

[skiny]

The thing is it really has to be the software provider that provides the means to enable 'idiot-proof' or 'AP-proof' bonuses. Skiny seems to think the vendor (casino) with a few keystrokes can action any permutation of bonus permissions. If it were that easy they'd all do it, because as Skiny said it would be less problematic for the casinos in the long run.
Rival supply their software with vendor choices for RTP and other settings including bonuses. This needs to be done for other software too - the site could simply programme a form for any bonus they offer (say WR 40 x, max stake 6, max digression allowed from initial starting spin stake +/- 33%, max stake for any single line play etc.)
Any player awarded this bonus would see their games warn them at any stage of the WR of any attempt to breach those restrictions and stop the game from being spun until set within the limits.
This means the casino could stop any play they considered AP by setting the appropriate restrictions.

There's very little that can be done with a few strokes. (Trust me. I know. )

This is simply a piece of software like any other piece of software. If I wrote the software myself I would give operators the option to limit bet sizes and games available according to bonus selections. This would be done from the back end and apply to anyone taking the bonuses. It's really not as hard as it sounds but it would require a substantial upgrade.

You do realize that 3Dice software already does this with their tournaments? When you join a table games tournament the software automatically locks you out of the slot games. When you play a slot tournament you're locked out of table games. They can even lock you out of all games but one depending on the tournament you're playing. If I play a free all games tournament at 3Dice and you play a VIP Payola tournament at the same time the software locks you out of all the games except Payola and I can play any game I like. The reps aren't doing this manually. The software does it automatically when you join a tournament. Why do people believe it would be so hard to do this with bonus selections instead of tournament selections?

We already know that at least some casinos can raise and lower the max bet on a player by player basis. Why would it be so hard to program the software to do it when a player takes a bonus?

This is not rocket science. In fact it's pretty simple compared to making the actual games themselves.

The software providers can do it. There's no doubt of this.