Chargebacks from Rogue Casinos?

Just a thought.

If a player somehow made a deposit into a casino without knowing that this casino is 100% rogue (new to online gambling, for example), got his winnings and deposits confiscated with no reason - do they have "right" to file a chargeback request?

Thanks!

Some examples of rogue casinos can be found here, here, and here

He should have known. He should have done a good research before making the deposit so no, I don't think so.

Players need to use caution when charging back since this is an act of fraud itself (if a player claims a CC was stolen or other lies). Doing so may have undesirable consequences for the player such as being put on a negative database. There are other ways in which players can get justice. Charging back is not one of them.

I would say go ahead and charge back right away. A charge back is when you've paid for something and not received the product / service. If a rogue casino takes your deposit and confiscates the winnings, I'd say you didn't receive what was advertised.

Cogge said:

I would say go ahead and charge back right away. A charge back is when you've paid for something and not received the product / service. If a rogue casino takes your deposit and confiscates the winnings, I'd say you didn't receive what was advertised.

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Great Advice.... NOT...

There are ways to try and resolve this. Like Casinomeister pointed out, Charge-backs may likely land your name on a database. We have seen players winnings confiscated for Chargebacks at unrelated Casinos. Not a good idea IF you want to play online hassle free.

Nate

Casinomeister said:

Players need to use caution when charging back since this is an act of fraud itself (if a player claims a CC was stolen or other lies). Doing so may have undesirable consequences for the player such as being put on a negative database. There are other ways in which players can get justice. Charging back is not one of them.

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Bryan,
What "justice" do you speak of when dealing with rogue operators, is it not fraud to advertise games that pay, when the player wins the casino chooses not pay, that seems to be fraudulent in my eyes. am not saying chargebacks are acceptable however I believe in some circumstances may be the only option to recoup the funds deposited. On a side note here, I absolutely do not condone of charging back, this is more of a curiosity, in the past I have seen many non cooperative casino's in the PAB process.

Nate said:

Great Advice.... NOT...

There are ways to try and resolve this. Like Casinomeister pointed out, Charge-backs may likely land your name on a database. We have seen players winnings confiscated for Chargebacks at unrelated Casinos. Not a good idea IF you want to play online hassle free.

Nate

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Well, what are the other ways to resolve it under the given fact that the casino is 100% rogue. Will any other way work to get your money back from a 100% rogue casino?

Personally I would contact my bank and explain what had happened and if you have enough "proof" that they have literally stolen your money, I'm sure your bank would issue a chargeback (or some other way get the money back).

Now, if the casino is not proven to be 100% rogue, there might be a lot more ways to get this resolved, but, imho, given that the fact of them being 100% rogue is correct, I see no other recourse than to walk the chargeback way.

Cogge said:

Well, what are the other ways to resolve it under the given fact that the casino is 100% rogue. Will any other way work to get your money back from a 100% rogue casino?

Personally I would contact my bank and explain what had happened and if you have enough "proof" that they have literally stolen your money, I'm sure your bank would issue a chargeback (or some other way get the money back).

Now, if the casino is not proven to be 100% rogue, there might be a lot more ways to get this resolved, but, imho, given that the fact of them being 100% rogue is correct, I see no other recourse than to walk the chargeback way.

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I can't really agree here, because if I saw it that way then anyone could just start depositing in a rogue casino, and if they won or not, then they could just make a chargeback.

The player have a responsibility to check what kind of casino it is before he gives them any money. If he don't then his lost.

Tirilej said:

I can't really agree here, because if I saw it that way then anyone could just start depositing in a rogue casino, and if they won or not, then they could just make a chargeback.

The player have a responsibility to check what kind of casino it is before he gives them any money. If he don't then his lost.

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Here's the rub, how many times have we seen new players getting sucked in, most of these players have no clue what a rogue casino is, we can all say they should have have known, how on earth could they know, if you dont know what you are looking for its pretty hard to find it. That old P.T Barnum saying "there is a sucker born every minute" holds true everyday.

me_and_ed said:

Here's the rub, how many times have we seen new players getting sucked in, most of these players have no clue what a rogue casino is, we can all say they should have have known, how on earth could they know, if you dont know what you are looking for its pretty hard to find it. That old P.T Barnum saying "there is a sucker born every minute" holds true everyday.

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I got sucked in myself, but I did deserve what I got and I felt ashamed because if I had just done a little research first I would have known.
I can feel bad for them but I will never think a charge back is okey just because it was in a rogue casino.

I'm not sure someone deserves it, they could do what they believe to be due diligence by visitng a forum which applauded and promotes them not knowing the forum itself is sketchy

Cogge said:

Well, what are the other ways to resolve it under the given fact that the casino is 100% rogue. Will any other way work to get your money back from a 100% rogue casino?

Personally I would contact my bank and explain what had happened and if you have enough "proof" that they have literally stolen your money, I'm sure your bank would issue a chargeback (or some other way get the money back).

Now, if the casino is not proven to be 100% rogue, there might be a lot more ways to get this resolved, but, imho, given that the fact of them being 100% rogue is correct, I see no other recourse than to walk the chargeback way.

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I fully understand what you are saying.... It's a FINE line... There are a number of scenarios which could play out. What IF the player deposited $20, Won $100 and they don't pay... Would it be wise to charge back given the amount?

On the other hand, you could have players charging back JUST because they lost ...other players weren't paid so they suspected they wouldn't be paid. Its a debatable subject I'm almost certain will lead to the player and Casino having negative publicity.

Nate

I might have misunderstood the OP, but I read "100% rogue" as the casino basically stealing his money. If you buy / deposit with your CC online and you do not get what was advertised, then you should get your money back.

I don't think that it's ever up to the player to know if a casino is rogue or not, and it's never the player's fault if someone steals his money.

(Again, my comments are all based on that the casino has voided the game play and refused to pay back the initial deposit)

Edit: If a player plays, loses and chargeback, then they received the advertised product and charging back in that case is fraudulent. Just like ordering something on Ebay, if you get the item and then do a chargeback, you're basically stealing the item.

Cogge said:

I might have misunderstood the OP, but I read "100% rogue" as the casino basically stealing his money. If you buy / deposit with your CC online and you do not get what was advertised, then you should get your money back.

I don't think that it's ever up to the player to know if a casino is rogue or not, and it's never the player's fault if someone steals his money.

(Again, my comments are all based on that the casino has voided the game play and refused to pay back the initial deposit)

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Sometimes we have EVIL Players as well. Winnings could be voided for a number of reasons. Irrelevant if the place is 100% ROGUE, you have players who will try to cheat at Rogue Casino's... and have their winnings confiscated.

Even some of the 'Rogue' places have contacts who will try to assist on other forums - We used to have some Rogue Casino reps here, but their memberships were terminated when they tried to persue their own agendas.

Many players are innocent and wander into the online jungle very hastily. The Onus also lies on someone to DO Research BEFORE they take the plunge. A Simple ' Casino X No Pay' will turn up lots of results in Google.

You have people who go in for 'Too good to be true' Pyramid schemes, how can this never be their fault? Its the same with email lottery winners and 419 scams.

Players rule of thumb - If its too good to be true, It probably is...

In any event, many players learn the hard way and end up being educated on Forums like these _ there are ALWAYS other avenues to pursue your case - Even with Rogues.

Nate

Nate said:

Sometimes we have EVIL Players as well. Winnings could be voided for a number of reasons. Irrelevant if the place is 100% ROGUE, you have players who will try to cheat at Rogue Casino's... and have their winnings confiscated.

Even some of the 'Rogue' places have contacts who will try to assist on other forums - We used to have some Rogue Casino reps here, but their memberships were terminated when they tried to persue their own agendas.

Many players are innocent and wander into the online jungle very hastily. The Onus also lies on someone to DO Research BEFORE they take the plunge. A Simple ' Casino X No Pay' will turn up lots of results in Google.

You have people who go in for 'Too good to be true' Pyramid schemes, how can this never be their fault? Its the same with email lottery winners and 419 scams.

Players rule of thumb - If its too good to be true, It probably is...

In any event, many players learn the hard way and end up being educated on Forums like these _ there are ALWAYS other avenues to pursue your case - Even with Rogues.

Nate

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Of course, a google search can also turn up a completely reliable casino but have posts with someone with an axe to grind. And not every search turns up CM; some forums happily sing the praises of rogues

dionysus said:

Of course, a google search can also turn up a completely reliable casino but have posts with someone with an axe to grind. And not every search turns up CM; some forums happily sing the praises of rogues

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Ofcourse it would - There are lots of Evil Players trying to tarnish reputable Casinos. The reality is the amount of complaints and warnings for rogues compared to reputable places...

In any event, people have differing opinions on whether to Charge back. Like CM advises, there may be (although limited) other avenues to pursue a case. It's advisable NOT to go the route, especially for the sake of landing on a charge back database...

Nate

If the casino doesn't have a UK license then they're committing fraud; they're not paying tax and their "goods" are misrepresented. They are not allowed to take money from UK residents or advertise to UK residents as it's an offence under the Gambling Act 2005. Financial institutions are under a statutory obligation to reduce financial crime so they'll just charge back for you. There are lots of casinos that target "problem" gamblers and these seems to be the ones that don't have the UK license. The Casinos get charged a processing fee and may lose their payment providers as they've breached their contract. But that's their fault as they shouldn't target UK customers without a license.

sarah1234 said:

If the casino doesn't have a UK license then they're committing fraud; they're not paying tax and their "goods" are misrepresented. They are not allowed to take money from UK residents or advertise to UK residents as it's an offence under the Gambling Act 2005. Financial institutions are under a statutory obligation to reduce financial crime so they'll just charge back for you. There are lots of casinos that target "problem" gamblers and these seems to be the ones that don't have the UK license. The Casinos get charged a processing fee and may lose their payment providers as they've breached their contract. But that's their fault as they shouldn't target UK customers without a license.

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I agree. Alas it doesn't work like that. It should do, but firstly the rogue sites are out of reach of legal systems in the countries they sell to, secondly the payment providers don't collate licence requirements before offering them services and the payment providers have little or no awareness of the fact the transactions are illegal and indirect money laundering, so tend to see things in black and white; YOU made the transaction by your own volition, the casino gave you credits so tough.

Yes, they may be out of the reach of legal systems with regards to tax and committing fraud which is why the banks will do a charge back for you. Then there's no tax owed to the UK; no harm done! If a payment provider is hit with 20 chargebacks then yes, the company will find out why and hense, stop business with said casino.

Lets clear up a few things. Mastercard and visa have scheme rules. If the deposit was made and it falls within the scheme accepted reason codes, Example -fraudulent Transaction Then you may have rights under the scheme to initiate charge back. When you start talking about legal obligations of casinos, then you refer to non compliance of scheme rules by merchant and processor. Non compliance for accepting payments from restricted or blocked regions in contradiction to local laws can see a merchant stripped of card processing ability. But to lodge non compliance again you need your (issuer) or bank to commission the dispute. In Australia, its harder to get banks to charge back for gaming transactions. For one , Aussie banks are some of the biggest share holders in many EU/UK /Asian financial and processing institutions. But new laws here actually do work. Chargebacks here in Ozz have a 99% success rate if you choose the right reason code. And remember, its not for you to prove your reasoning, its up to merchant to prove you wrong. Don't take shit from your bank. If first presentment of chargeback fails you can go a second time using another reason code.

To top it off, in Australia each chargeback has a $35 cost to it on top of disputed amount. Merchant or casino has to pay that also, not you. And when there are 100's transactions it costs casinos big $$

I know that's why I'm going after dozens of casinos. Actually seems like they all belong to one group. They've harassed me even though I've asked to be excluded from their casinos. Of course, I'm offering for them just to refund me first. But they sent me a contract with too many requirements and asking for sensitive documentation (as if I'm going to provide this to an illegal group) and they're refusing to accept responsibility for sending me dozens of offers despite being self-excluded going back years. The nail in their coffin is that they're not UK licensed so the banks have to issue charge backs. Their online support guy also threatened me! I'm not expecting my bank or even I will go after the casino to have them stripped of their card processing, this is something that will happen with the amount of charge backs they receive. I'm not fraudulently issuing charge backs. It's for misrepresentation of goods.

To think, when this thread originated my ballsack hung at least half a centimetre higher

Good times

I fell into gaming and didn't have a clue about research or rogue casinos, I have had (on more than 1 occasion) Casinos refuse to pay winnings etc etc. But to charge back seems unfair - it's not the CC providers fault, sometimes you have to take it on the chin, learn from your mistakes.

Roseyetta said:

I fell into gaming and didn't have a clue about research or rogue casinos, I have had (on more than 1 occasion) Casinos refuse to pay winnings etc etc. But to charge back seems unfair - it's not the CC providers fault, sometimes you have to take it on the chin, learn from your mistakes.

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You don't know the CC provider don't lose out, they reclaim it from the retailer/casino?