Serious Bug Discovered

[xxshepxx]

As said been exploited before, people get caught and money isnt paid out, once in a bluemoon and you will get away with it as a genuine oversight.

Some people cannot help themselves though.

Just make sure if you do, it's gonna be worthwhile if it paysoff

 

[jshort]

This idea reminds me of another potential "abuse" case, which similiar to the OP I discovered after the fact.

At one of the casinos I played at, I deposited via "Instadebit", however apparantely a couple days later my account was overdrawn and so my
deposit was never sent to the casino despite my casino account being instantly credited with the funds (although maybe it was alreadly overdrawn idk, but I don't think its possible to deposit instantly if thats the case). I discovered this a month later after I logged onto the casino and found out I was blocked there for this reason. The casino rep there didn't tell me so, but it dawned on me that a fraudulant player could make various Instadebit deposits at a casino; If the player wins there, he/she can insure that there are sufficient funds in the account to be sent to cover deposits, however if he/she loses at the casino, then the player can just overdraw money so that an actual transfer never takes place (the player will likely be banned/blocked like I was of course, but they'd just go to another casino and repeat the process).

 

[vinylweatherman]

I will explain as best I can...

I recently took a 200% bonus offer at a well known Casino. Deposited £50 and they gave me £150 to play with on a 25x wager. I had £2500 worth of bets to complete before the bonus balance would move over to cash. I started out fairly well playing Avalon at 60p bets, but after around 40 minutes I got the "Forest Falls" bonus with trailing wilds and the game completely froze. Tried refreshing and it wouldn't load. It was late and the support was offline so I decided to move onto Siberian Storm with the rest of my cash. I had around £200 remaining at this point.

Siberian Storm, and a selection of other IGT games were up and down over the next hour but my balance ended up trickling away. Once my balance reached £0 the bonus wager I had was set as complete. I wondered what would happen to my Avalon 2 bonus and to my surprise when it finally loaded the £76 bonus went directly into my cash balance and was with-drawable, effectively bypassing the wager requirement that the bonus was earned under.

I do believe that with a close review of the play logs this could be discovered, however I also believe a user could very easily hide this method by depositing again after a wager was "complete" and unless a review covered every single individual wager and at what point a bonus was received and then played I think it could easily be missed as it does not involve high or unusual bets.

The scale at which this could be abused, especially considering the larger % bonuses that carry tough wager requirements is huge. As far as I am aware, information regarding a pending bonus is held on the side of the software operator and not the casino so I would expect this bug to affect many Casinos, although nothing beyond what I accidentally discovered has been tested in any way.

Let me know if you have any queries and I will answer as best I can.

- T

This is an old exploit, much as I described. You discovered it by accident due to another bug in the software that froze your game and wouldn't let you continue. It is THEIR fault that such bugs sometimes lead to the discovery of usable exploits, and this is how many of them were first discovered.

This can be widely exploited, and it WAS, quite ruthlessly. For several years, this one went largely unnoticed by casinos as they were not really looking at withdrawals from pure cash deposits as they were focussed on the "bonus abuse" aspect of advantage play.

However, widespread use of this exploit eventually lead to most operators becoming aware of it, and so most now check more thoroughly. They don't need to look at every wager for every player, they just have to look for players who's win statistics suggest that they might be using this method, and then thoroughly check their wagers.

Many casinos now have something within their terms that specifically covers this type of play as it is a hard one to deal with using the usual "irregular play" terms as the withdrawal is made from a deposit without a bonus, and thus confiscating a win would probably cause the operator to end up in the rogue pit unless they were willing to reveal to Max just EXACTLY what was going on, which at first many software providers were not prepared to do as it would involve admitting to a serious bug in their software.

Microgaming has been full of such bugs, and a few have been exploitable, the most recent being an "emptier" for the newest Dark Knight slot that lasted for 8 days before being quietly patched.

Your incident shows that despite having been fixed in the Viper download, this old exploit is very much alive in the multi provider platforms, probably because of how they track bonus wagering at the platform level, rather than at software provider level.

Maybe these platform operators should worry less about Scrooge, and more about this old exploit still being viable on their product. I expect those that weren't are aware now that it has been posted here. What they need to implement is an unfinished game check, which would have seen that there was a "stuck" wager on Avalon, and not to clear the remaining WR; which is how the WR tracking now works (if not properly) in the Viper download.

Many years ago, this worked on RTG too, and they have those high percentage phantom bonuses. RTG fixed their tracking, and operators now know about it. Advantage players probably helped the operators find out by constantly pestering CS to fix the WR tracker, and this must have lead to management (or RTG) investigating why some specific players had so much bother with a system that worked fine for most other players.

You will probably be unpopular with the beatingbonuses forum for highlighting the fact that the multi provider platforms are vulnerable to some exploits that have long since been patched on single software products.

 

[spintee]

This idea reminds me of another potential "abuse" case, which similiar to the OP I discovered after the fact.

At one of the casinos I played at, I deposited via "Instadebit", however apparantely a couple days later my account was overdrawn and so my
deposit was never sent to the casino despite my casino account being instantly credited with the funds (although maybe it was alreadly overdrawn idk, but I don't think its possible to deposit instantly if thats the case). I discovered this a month later after I logged onto the casino and found out I was blocked there for this reason. The casino rep there didn't tell me so, but it dawned on me that a fraudulant player could make various Instadebit deposits at a casino; If the player wins there, he/she can insure that there are sufficient funds in the account to be sent to cover deposits, however if he/she loses at the casino, then the player can just overdraw money so that an actual transfer never takes place (the player will likely be banned/blocked like I was of course, but they'd just go to another casino and repeat the process).

There was a thread about this problem b4, But a rouge casino blacklisted this player across alot of casino's & if my memory serves me right it was not the players fault,

 

[Balthazar]

the game completely froze.

That's quite unfortunate.

Tried refreshing and it wouldn't load.

Bummer.

It was late and the support was offline

Sucks.

IGT games were up and down over the next hour

Those things are more infuriating than the "wagering bug".

 

[Dinahnana]

This is an old exploit, much as I described. You discovered it by accident due to another bug in the software that froze your game and wouldn't let you continue. It is THEIR fault that such bugs sometimes lead to the discovery of usable exploits, and this is how many of them were first discovered.

This can be widely exploited, and it WAS, quite ruthlessly. For several years, this one went largely unnoticed by casinos as they were not really looking at withdrawals from pure cash deposits as they were focussed on the "bonus abuse" aspect of advantage play.

However, widespread use of this exploit eventually lead to most operators becoming aware of it, and so most now check more thoroughly. They don't need to look at every wager for every player, they just have to look for players who's win statistics suggest that they might be using this method, and then thoroughly check their wagers.

Many casinos now have something within their terms that specifically covers this type of play as it is a hard one to deal with using the usual "irregular play" terms as the withdrawal is made from a deposit without a bonus, and thus confiscating a win would probably cause the operator to end up in the rogue pit unless they were willing to reveal to Max just EXACTLY what was going on, which at first many software providers were not prepared to do as it would involve admitting to a serious bug in their software.

Microgaming has been full of such bugs, and a few have been exploitable, the most recent being an "emptier" for the newest Dark Knight slot that lasted for 8 days before being quietly patched.

Your incident shows that despite having been fixed in the Viper download, this old exploit is very much alive in the multi provider platforms, probably because of how they track bonus wagering at the platform level, rather than at software provider level.

Maybe these platform operators should worry less about Scrooge, and more about this old exploit still being viable on their product. I expect those that weren't are aware now that it has been posted here. What they need to implement is an unfinished game check, which would have seen that there was a "stuck" wager on Avalon, and not to clear the remaining WR; which is how the WR tracking now works (if not properly) in the Viper download.

Many years ago, this worked on RTG too, and they have those high percentage phantom bonuses. RTG fixed their tracking, and operators now know about it. Advantage players probably helped the operators find out by constantly pestering CS to fix the WR tracker, and this must have lead to management (or RTG) investigating why some specific players had so much bother with a system that worked fine for most other players.

You will probably be unpopular with the beatingbonuses forum for highlighting the fact that the multi provider platforms are vulnerable to some exploits that have long since been patched on single software products.

I'd wager it would be difficult to take advantage of this but on mulit provider platforms since the game freezing on bonus rounds doesn't happen very often. To date it has happened to me 3 times. Twice on a multi provider on different MG games and it was a bugger to get back in. I had to wait about 20 mins and then the problem fixed itself. I played for hours over several days on this site and the freeze only happened twice.

The third time was on Avalon II on 32Red download version mid spin when the server disconnected. I usually take that as a sign to move to a new slot (gamblers superstition) and didn't play it again on that session. When I went back to play it a week later I was pleasantly surprised to see it was in the bonus round and then dismayed because said bonus round paid crap.

So in order to take advantage of this bug you would have to wait on the off chance of it occurring and would probably run out of funds trying

 

[quber]

I'd wager it would be difficult to take advantage of this but on mulit provider platforms since the game freezing on bonus rounds doesn't happen very often. To date it has happened to me 3 times. Twice on a multi provider on different MG games and it was a bugger to get back in. I had to wait about 20 mins and then the problem fixed itself. I played for hours over several days on this site and the freeze only happened twice.

The third time was on Avalon II on 32Red download version mid spin when the server disconnected. I usually take that as a sign to move to a new slot (gamblers superstition) and didn't play it again on that session. When I went back to play it a week later I was pleasantly surprised to see it was in the bonus round and then dismayed because said bonus round paid crap.

So in order to take advantage of this bug you would have to wait on the off chance of it occurring and would probably run out of funds trying

You don't need the game to freeze just close it when you hit the bonus round.

 

[Tropicana50]

Those things are more infuriating than the "wagering bug".

Heh, you're not wrong. Every 5-10 spins it just lags for ~ seconds. It has been happening for so long that I have got used to it now and I keep 2 tabs open so I can browse another website while the "laggy" spin processes.

- T

 

[Dinahnana]

You don't need the game to freeze just close it when you hit the bonus round.

That is not a bug then it is the deliberate closing of a game to boost future profits and it's against most casino's t&c's as stated previously.

 

[spintee]

I tried playing scrooge the other day, Not to scam but I did have a bonus and not let me play, I have just seen in casino terms this

6. A few games are not playable with bonus funds. A customer will not be technically able to play these slot machines with bonus funds at all: Scrooge, Devils Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood. All games in our Live Casino will also not be playable at all with bonus funds. If you wish to play any of these games, make sure you do not have an active casino bonus.

So looks like they are on top of it, Sure they cannot stop all games as most have the free spin feature but looks like stoping you play the grantee feature

 

[Jasminebed]

I tried playing scrooge the other day, Not to scam but I did have a bonus and not let me play, I have just seen in casino terms this

6. A few games are not playable with bonus funds. A customer will not be technically able to play these slot machines with bonus funds at all: Scrooge, Devils Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood. All games in our Live Casino will also not be playable at all with bonus funds. If you wish to play any of these games, make sure you do not have an active casino bonus.

So looks like they are on top of it, Sure they cannot stop all games as most have the free spin feature but looks like stoping you play the grantee feature

Admirable when the software prevents you from playing excluded games. Could you tell us which casino?

 

[spintee]

Admirable when the software prevents you from playing excluded games. Could you tell us which casino?

I can its casinoluck, in terms 6, Mind you its 1 of the best casino I played yet, Swift payout and bonus auto added without worry,
Happy Spinning

 

[vinylweatherman]

That is not a bug then it is the deliberate closing of a game to boost future profits and it's against most casino's t&c's as stated previously.

That was the exploit. Once players had seen it happen by accident, some had the courage to try it deliberately. They could of course have found the server ditched the saved bonus round on re-entry, or after a short period of time. However, MGS games store the last known state pretty much "forever". Only a change of server causes it to be lost (which happens rarely). The advantage players were all over it, and for a while the operators didn't have a clue about it. Now they DO, and this is widely known in operator circles. The exploit itself has also been patched in RTG and MGS so that leaving an unfinished game no longer zeroes out the WR. The fact that it DOES still work in these browser versions must have operators on their guard. The "Scrooge trick" is similar, but less profitable. Unlike unfinished games, there is currently no defence. The browser platform providers have dealt with the issue by blocking the transfer of bonus funds into Scrooge and a few other games. Oddly enough, this is NOT the case with the stand alone MGS casinos, where it is still left to the operator to audit accounts to spot such things. It's not even against the terms to play Scrooge with a bonus at most MGS casinos, so there is little that can be done to enforce it without appearing rogue.

Oddly enough, way back in the early 2000's the Cryptologic client had this problem thoroughly "sorted". If you closed a game in play, you could ONLY access that game until it had been completed. In many cases, the server played out unfinished games once the connection was lost using a basic strategy, so what often happened was that the player was forced back into the game just to see how the server resolved it.

This was well ahead of it's time, so it seems odd that this software failed to prosper.

One might argue that the simplest solution of all is to abort an unfinished game and return the stake, but this too can be exploited by ditching bad hands once dealt for a refund, and only completing the good ones, hence the solution had to involve the forced acceptance of the hand dealt.

 

[spintee]

That was the exploit. Once players had seen it happen by accident, some had the courage to try it deliberately. They could of course have found the server ditched the saved bonus round on re-entry, or after a short period of time. However, MGS games store the last known state pretty much "forever". Only a change of server causes it to be lost (which happens rarely). The advantage players were all over it, and for a while the operators didn't have a clue about it. Now they DO, and this is widely known in operator circles. The exploit itself has also been patched in RTG and MGS so that leaving an unfinished game no longer zeroes out the WR. The fact that it DOES still work in these browser versions must have operators on their guard. The "Scrooge trick" is similar, but less profitable. Unlike unfinished games, there is currently no defence. The browser platform providers have dealt with the issue by blocking the transfer of bonus funds into Scrooge and a few other games. Oddly enough, this is NOT the case with the stand alone MGS casinos, where it is still left to the operator to audit accounts to spot such things. It's not even against the terms to play Scrooge with a bonus at most MGS casinos, so there is little that can be done to enforce it without appearing rogue.

Oddly enough, way back in the early 2000's the Cryptologic client had this problem thoroughly "sorted". If you closed a game in play, you could ONLY access that game until it had been completed. In many cases, the server played out unfinished games once the connection was lost using a basic strategy, so what often happened was that the player was forced back into the game just to see how the server resolved it.

This was well ahead of it's time, so it seems odd that this software failed to prosper.

One might argue that the simplest solution of all is to abort an unfinished game and return the stake, but this too can be exploited by ditching bad hands once dealt for a refund, and only completing the good ones, hence the solution had to involve the forced acceptance of the hand dealt.

This geza (VWM) is a wikpeada when it comes to gamble lol, Me my self is not here to rip casino off all low it would be good I do not think its there fault if you lose. Just like if you bought a pastie from barker and took it back top a shop outa town, What can they do? Any decent gambler will no these floors hence the reason you get alot of complaints, Go with the rules and any trouble than be sorted,
If wvery 1 keep withen the rules we be all good, But saying that them rules can be out of order

 

[Dinahnana]

That was the exploit. Once players had seen it happen by accident, some had the courage to try it deliberately. They could of course have found the server ditched the saved bonus round on re-entry, or after a short period of time. However, MGS games store the last known state pretty much "forever". Only a change of server causes it to be lost (which happens rarely). The advantage players were all over it, and for a while the operators didn't have a clue about it. Now they DO, and this is widely known in operator circles. The exploit itself has also been patched in RTG and MGS so that leaving an unfinished game no longer zeroes out the WR. The fact that it DOES still work in these browser versions must have operators on their guard. The "Scrooge trick" is similar, but less profitable. Unlike unfinished games, there is currently no defence. The browser platform providers have dealt with the issue by blocking the transfer of bonus funds into Scrooge and a few other games. Oddly enough, this is NOT the case with the stand alone MGS casinos, where it is still left to the operator to audit accounts to spot such things. It's not even against the terms to play Scrooge with a bonus at most MGS casinos, so there is little that can be done to enforce it without appearing rogue.

Oddly enough, way back in the early 2000's the Cryptologic client had this problem thoroughly "sorted". If you closed a game in play, you could ONLY access that game until it had been completed. In many cases, the server played out unfinished games once the connection was lost using a basic strategy, so what often happened was that the player was forced back into the game just to see how the server resolved it.

This was well ahead of it's time, so it seems odd that this software failed to prosper.

One might argue that the simplest solution of all is to abort an unfinished game and return the stake, but this too can be exploited by ditching bad hands once dealt for a refund, and only completing the good ones, hence the solution had to involve the forced acceptance of the hand dealt.

More fool those who try and exploit this to their gain. I have exited out of Scrooge and Wealth Spa in the past due to having no money to continue I did go back a few sessions later and lost all my money again on Wealth Spa and after 50 or so spins got the feature on Scrooge so I wouldn't call it profitable. So now I don't play these game a whole lot.
You could also put the Untamed group slots into this group as a player can build up the wild reels and come back at a later date hoping to trigger them.
What I would really like from MG either download or web version is a pop up telling you have an unfinished game when you log back on from a disconnect. It would make life much easier. 3Dice does a great job of this. Not having disconnects would be better.