PR: ECOGRA REPORT ON THE GRAND PRIV AFFILIATE PROGRAM INVESTIGATION

[dominique]

Sorry, I missed that comment, Jetset:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominique
Just to add, I think Referspot legacy is what is missing. Apparently there are affiliates who expected compensation and got zero - and it turns out their players were exclusively Referspot legacy players.

So now we wait and see what is found. Unquote

------------------------------------

More speculation?
__________________
jetset

No that is not speculation, talking with a number of affiliates who filed a claim and received no compensation reveals that the common denominator among these affiliates is that all their players were legacy players from the Referspot program.

It also fits my own situation - the offered compensation fits for just players referred after the switch from Referspot to Grand Prive. However, the majority of my players came from before the switch. It adds up perfectly that way.

I feel quite comfortable concluding that these legacy players were omitted from the statistics presented to eCOGRA.

The speculative part is how this happened. Possibility: The legacy statistics may have been fed into the Grand Privee affiliate accounting from a different source than the more recent players that were aquired after the switch. The old Referspot accounting may actually be intact someplace and needs to be pulled to make the Grand Prive stats complete. I am only speculating on this part now because it may aid eCOGRA during investigation if true.

As an explanation to why this is of interest to players:

A lot of established affiliates aim to create a "player base" with certain casinos. That means that there are enough players playing to even out somewhat the fluctuations of winning and losing, as we all know gambling is not a reliable income for people who have to pay rent every month.

This is actually beneficial to players, since only casinos who treat their players well keep them playing for years at the same place. The affiliate is only able to establish such a "player base" at decent casinos.

Of course, such a player base is only a workable business model if the casino does not breach contract with the affiliate, i.e. makes payments as per contract.

In an environment where it is easily possible for casinos to breach contract with affiliates, many affiliates will abandon the idea of picking reliable brands to establish a relationship with and instead work for CPA, which is a flat payment for each referred player, much like all the "refer a friend" offers out there.

Now the affiliate has no further financial interest in the happiness of the player. (Hopefully there will still be a human interest)

Anyway, I just thought I'd explain how this works and why this does matter for players.

 

[jetset]

I don't wish to appear pedantic, Dom but that is still speculation.

You have not had access to the GP records in the manner that eCOGRA has, and you probably lack the professional capabilities of the experienced chartered accountants and auditors who conducted this audit. Don't forget that these professionals have interacted with experts in affiliate accounting as well as the systems and technology of leading programs in the industry under the Affiliate Program Trust initiative - they are generally pretty clued up.

Therefore you are not in a position, no matter how many fellow affiliates you speak to, to be sure that this was a factor in the investigation, let alone whether the investigation has come up with the correct conclusions.

That said, it is possibly useful information and you were right to forward it as a possibility to the CEO at eCOGRA.

If it does impact the results, or has not already been taken into account, he will certainly have to reopen the enquiry to address the point - I can't see him risking eCOGRA's credibility by not doing so.

eCOGRA has an imperative to be impartial and objective in this issue - and so should we, to be fair.

It is understandable that affiliates who thought they were going to benefit here but did not will feel miffed and develop subjective views, but that doesn't mean that everyone else has to accept these as gospel.

 

[Webzcas]

I don't wish to appear pedantic, Dom but that is still speculation.

Jetset, it may be speculation, but it is the only plausible reason as to why only 26 affiliates are owed money as a result of the investigation made by ecogra.

IF Dom is incorrect, then what I want to know is, what has happened to the other countless number of affiliates owed monies?

Indeed, if there is another reason as to why so few are owed monies and the amount offered in way of compensation is derisory based on previous monthly earnings ( Based on what many affiliates such as Dom have indicated ) - Then something untoward has happened - Meaning Grand Prive and possibly eCOGRA are complicit in a cover up.

Hence I like to prefer to believe Dom has nailed it.

Now you may again address my post as pure conjecture and speculation but I will say this. There is absolutely no way on earth only 26 people were left owing money when Grand Prive closed down.

This report I am afraid to say is FLAWED, as it is becoming more apparent Grand Prive did not provide all the information to eCOGRA. This is why it was so important that someone such as Affiliate Guard Dog should have been involved from the getgo.

Let's see what Andrew gets back to Michael Corfman with.

 

[jetset]

I am surprised that you use such strong language, when it is equally true that you are patently not in a position to make such a judgement on whether the report is "flawed" or not, Webzcas.

This is exactly the sort of damaging guesswork that should be avoided in favour of factual exchanges with the CEO at eCOGRA in my opinion. It can only inflame and exacerbate the situation.

For example, on what do you base the statement "....the other countless number of affiliates owed monies?"

What is apparent to me is that the settlements that GP were shown to have negotiated and made when the program closed are not being acknowledged by affiliates in their attacks on this report. Nor is the fact that the recommended compensation is a far cry from "derisory".

And the fact that despite wide publicity only 58 claims were lodged with the eCOGRA investigation team appears to substantiate that. I say 'appears' because like you I have no way of verifying that was the case.

As to the implication that eCOGRA lacks integrity and would consider being an accomplice in a GP cover-up...I will just say that I find that very, very hard to accept.

 

[Webzcas]

I am surprised that you use such strong language, when it is equally true that you are patently not in a position to make such a judgement on whether the report is "flawed" or not, Webzcas.

I base it on my 5 - 6 years as an affiliate, who is still earning considerable sums from programs whereby I have not referred players to for many months and in some cases over a year. I am not one to make wild speculative comments and I don't choose my words lightly.

There are many more affiliates who put through a far greater number of players than I do or have done . Therefore I cannot buy the fact that the majority of players referred by affiliates suddenly stopped playing when the Grand Prive affiliate program closed down. Which if we are to take the report issued by eCOGRA at face value, this is what it indicates.

Like I say, Dom has more than very likely assessed the situation correctly, and legacy players from the old referspot program were not included in the investigation.

If Andrew comes back to Michael and confirms this is the case, then another investigation will be required - As you also indicate should be the case.

However if the legacy referspot players were included in the investigation then I cannot accept the conclusion drawn up by eCOGRA as it currently stands.

 

[jetset]

I'm afraid I cannot accept that your experience as an affiliate qualifies you to make judgements on the efficacy of the eCOGRA professional audit, W - the two qualifications are quite disparate...but you raise an interesting point regarding players active post-the GP Affiliate Program shutdown - the lack of performance of referred players in that time.

My own speculation - and that's all it is, because I have no more proof of my assertions than you have - is that affiliates may have been hoist by their own petard, so to speak - specifically by the massive bad publicity that was generated against GP for its lack of communication and refusal to address the fact that it had overlooked some affiliates when it negotiated compensation deals with others prior to the program being discontinued.

Edited to add that reading back over this post I find myself guilty of the same guesswork as those I have argued with, and for that I am sorry. Let's try and stick with the facts here and see what eCOGRA has to say with regard to the Referspot and player tag possibilities.

If GP has misled eCOGRA I suspect there will be some pretty serious consequences.

 

[Webzcas]

I'm afraid I cannot accept that your experience as an affiliate qualifies you to make judgements on the efficacy of the eCOGRA professional audit

If as I suspect eCOGRA were not provided with all the information required ( ie the referspot players ) then the blame does not lie at their door. But whether you accept my experience as an affiliate or not, I know for a fact that players enmasse do not all disappear overnight which is pretty much what the investigation is concluding. Hence my assertion the report and audit is flawed.

I have provided two possible scenarios as to why it is flawed and I am of the belief that they ( eCOGRA ) have not been provided with the full information necessary to complete the audit.

If GP has misled eCOGRA I suspect there will be some pretty serious consequences.

Who knows, it could have been an oversight on GP's part. But I am very interested to hear what Andrew comes back with.

 

[dominique]

Luckily eCOGRA sees more merit in affiliate feedback than Jetset and they are looking into it.

Developments since yesterday, i.e. more affiliates reporting on their findings, further confirm that the Referspot legacy statistics do not figure in the calculations.

Understanding the affiliate business has nothing to do with it, you are right Jetset. I only explained about that because we are guests on a player oriented board here and it matters that players understand the issue and how it affects them.

At this time, the only thing that matters in regard to my conclusions is the way the numbers crunch. And that makes my conclusions clear as day.

 

[jetset]

That snidey little introductory remark is totally uncalled for and unwarranted, Dom - you disappoint me.

But thank you for the progress report.

 

[dominique]

Sorry Jetset, I didn't mean to be snide. Accept my apologies, please.

 

[jetset]

Accepted.

Let's be clear here - I am in no way defending or condoning GP's actions. I believe this company initially handled this issue incredibly badly and maybe even dishonestly and then made it even worse for themselves by pulling up the drawbridge.

I do, however have a healthy respect for eCOGRA's capabilities and integrity, hence my efforts to keep things on a factual and objective level rather than see an affiliate lynch party start up before eCOGRA has had a fair chance to address your questions and perhaps explain the position regarding alleged discrepancies.

For the record, I have encouraged affiliate feedback as my previous posts show.

 

[dominique]

There isn't any lynch party going on. Only efforts to aid eCOGRA in figuring out the apparent discrepancies.

 

[jetset]

Please read my post again.

Quote: "...hence my efforts to keep things on a factual and objective level rather than see an affiliate lynch party start up..." Unquote

Meanwhile keep up the good work in carrying on a sensible dialogue with eCOGRA.

 

[universal4]

I would be all for the facts to be looked at and examined.

Have GP turn the old referspot stats back on.

Have eCogra look at the players ID numbers and cross reference them to the stats from GP.

Then they could get an idea at how many players disappeared during that first big ******.

(Sorry, I had a few ideas of what to put there in place of the stars, none of which is appropriate for public consumption...)...maybe use "screw-up"

Sure, turning the old stats on would be a big pain, and slightly difficult, but I am 100% sure they have decent workable backups that they could install and restore on a few servers so eCogra could take a look.

Like many others, I just have trouble accepting that almost ALL players stopped playing almost immediately....

Rick

 

[spearmaster]

I do, however have a healthy respect for eCOGRA's capabilities and integrity...

I will vouch for Andrew and Tex's integrity, and thus that of eCOGRA. There is absolutely no question of this.

However, I do feel that their capabilities are not up to scratch. This is ultimately why I seem to disagree with them much more often than I would expect.

I have already made my opinions about this issue to them early last year and nothing has changed despite the subsequent audit.

 

[dominique]

I am quite positive that eCOGRA worked properly with what they were presented with.

Hopefully the missing data can be retrieved.

 

[bonustreak]

HAHA so I am back to retract my previous statement about how we were given a decent amount it seems the accountant or whom ever typed the email up does not know how to use decimals and it was not 7k we are given but 7 bucks roflmaooooo they can of course shove that!

 

[NASHVEGAS]

I am quite positive that eCOGRA worked properly with what they were presented with.

Hopefully the missing data can be retrieved.

100% sugarcoating the inability of qualified auditors (their words as I remember) to properly perform. Why would a player be concerned with qualified auditors from eCOGRA inability to obtain all relevant data? HUMMM, those so called BS-MG audits maybe???

When I had a casino audited, the casino tried the same with Eliot Jacobson and I, not once but three times (3). Notice I said "tried".

 

[Webzcas]

HAHA so I am back to retract my previous statement about how we were given a decent amount it seems the accountant or whom ever typed the email up does not know how to use decimals and it was not 7k we are given but 7 bucks roflmaooooo they can of course shove that!

This is just downright insulting. As I said in my previous posts. This audit is FLAWED!

Majorly so.

Even not taking into account the Referspot players being excluded ( which has not been confirmed is the case yet ) this is just absolutely ridiculous. I am inclined to agree with Spearmaster.

 

[AussieDave]

Therefore you are not in a position, no matter how many fellow affiliates you speak to, to be sure that this was a factor in the investigation, let alone whether the investigation has come up with the correct conclusions.

If eCogra came 100% clean with exactly what was done in the GP audit, people like Dom would not have to speculate.

A which point we could all move forward in addressing issues that may have affected the outcome of this audit, instead of splitting hairs about who's right and who's wrong.



Cheers



Dave

 

[AussieDave]

I will vouch for Andrew and Tex's integrity,

Apart from speaking with Andrew a few times when eCogra opened, I don't know much about him. However Tex I've known for ages. Although she has a busy schedule, Tex as far as I'm aware is not one to choose the soft option.

But I'm talking about people's integrity and although Tex is employed by eCogra, Tex like Andrew is not eCogra.

I wont hide my negative views about eCogra as an entity. But I wont derail this thread with my views.

However, I do feel that their capabilities are not up to scratch.

Though I don't question Tex's integrity, I side with your opinion that both Andrew and Tex are out of their depth with the GP matter.



Cheers



Dave

 

[jetset]

As usual, we are again being presented with a rush to judgement on eCOGRA by several posters here - and all before the full facts are known.

That's not splitting hairs btw - that's recommending a fair hearing and asking for facts instead of theories. And eCOGRA has detailed its methodology in its final report for those who care to take the time to read it.

Thanks to the imo more balanced approach taken by Dom and Michael Corfman in conducting a dialogue direct with eCOGRA - and kudos to them for it - this issue is apparently being further examined to see which of several possibilities has been the actual case.

And perhaps more importantly than throwing mud around before the facts are known, how a fair result can be ensured for those affiliates who have been prejudiced by GP's handling of this disgraceful affair.

As I see it the following are the broad possibilities:

1) eCOGRA and its auditors are corrupt and complicit in a deliberate deception with GP designed to screw affiliates.

2) eCOGRA and its auditors are incompetent and incapable of delivering a professional and acceptable investigation and report.

3) GP has deliberately withheld or concealed information that could radically impact the results so far of the eCOGRA investigation, literally hanging eCOGRA out to dry to defend GP interests.

4) The eCOGRA investigation was presented with all the facts - including re-tagging, Referspot etc etc by GP, and its investigation and conclusions are accurate - ie not flawed at all.

I can't think of any others - please feel free to add to the list - but I'm prepared to withhold judgement until there is more factual information available on what is going on here.

 

[maxd]

... Andrew and Tex are out of their depth with the GP matter.

How so? Just curious about your reasoning.

Also, afaik, Tex is on leave at the moment. Andrew is carrying the ball for the time being.

 

[jetset]

Beveridge is the CEO of eCOGRA as well as being a fully qualified and professional Chartered Accountant.

According to the well documented communications leading up to the investigation he was involved in the enquiry with another senior eCOGRA staffer, Sean Roberts - also a fully qualified and experienced Chartered Accountant.

If material information was withheld from them or 'disappeared' from the records made available, I doubt that either will be happy - but at this stage that is conjecture and not fact.

 

[universal4]

I personally agree with #3 in Jetset's post above....

...but if that is truly the case, I wouldn't go as far as saying the auditors are corrupt or incompetent (although I guess that is a possibility) but I would guess that they should have been able to tell the information they are being supplied is flawed.

Of the 58 that actually filed, I do not honestly think that any one of them accepts the findings, and if so I have not heard of this through the grapevine of affiliates anywhere.

Rick