How Bad Is It In Germany? Europe?

[hedgehok]

I should start clarify a couple of things. Germany is NOT a hellhole and in any demise some of you might think it is. In fact the refugees I see regularly appear to be super scared to even say "Guten Tag". What happened on New Year in Köln was scary and proper policing should have taken place - no question.

And let me clarify 1 thing. The Americans with their bullshit war in Iraq (2003) put away a terrible dictator with Saddam Hussein, but what did they left behind? A political vacuum which was perfect for goofs like ISIS to evolve. Now that there are millions of refugees they don't even take refugees. How is Trump framing it "We have to stop Muslim immigration until we know what's going on". Seriously? A guy like this is running for president. Only thing he is doing is fear-mongering and repeating simple facts all of the time. "Make America great again", "We have to create jobs".... His stance on aborting while on TV was ridiculous because he obviously lacks intelligent for making clear statements. Right-wing media like Fox News doesn't ask tough questions and (older) people like Barbara (yes you are from Canada) watch Fox News and are scared because they don't understand the bigger picture because journalists don't do their job because making money out of ads is more important than inform the people.

Where did the refugees go? To Europe and mostly to Germany and Sweden which had nothing to do and opposed with all the intervention wars the Americans started. Thank you America!

 

[gagamel]

I should start clarify a couple of things. Germany is NOT a hellhole and in any demise some of you might think it is. In fact the refugees I see regularly appear to be super scared to even say "Guten Tag". What happened on New Year in Köln was scary and proper policing should have taken place - no question.

And let me clarify 1 thing. The Americans with their bullshit war in Iraq (2003) put away a terrible dictator with Saddam Hussein, but what did they left behind? A political vacuum which was perfect for goofs like ISIS to evolve. Now that there are millions of refugees they don't even take refugees. How is Trump framing it "We have to stop Muslim immigration until we know what's going on". Seriously? A guy like this is running for president. Only thing he is doing is fear-mongering and repeating simple facts all of the time. "Make America great again", "We have to create jobs".... His stance on aborting while on TV was ridiculous because he obviously lacks intelligent for making clear statements. Right-wing media like Fox News doesn't ask tough questions and (older) people like Barbara (yes you are from Canada) watch Fox News and are scared because they don't understand the bigger picture because journalists don't do their job because making money out of ads is more important than inform the people.

Where did the refugees go? To Europe and mostly to Germany and Sweden which had nothing to do and opposed with all the intervention wars the Americans started. Thank you America!

Thank you

 

[lockinlove]

Canada brought some of them in. And all the news stations were reporting nothing but garbage from them. One was even caught on video saying Toronto was ridiculous and too much traffic and congestion and they would rather go back to syria and live in bombed out cars. Others complaining about the housing they have been given etc. Some complaining they arent allowed to wear the Niqab while being sworn in as Canadian citizens and some complaining when our security asked them to take them off in airports for security purposes.

From everything Ive seen and heard, I have zero sympathy for any of them. And I have no idea why our government is taking any of them in. Especially considering how much debt it puts us in only to have the liberal government ask the citizens of Canada to donate our tax returns to them to lower our debt. Heres a suggestion. Stop spending billions on a bunch of unappreciative people.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Canada brought some of them in. And all the news stations were reporting nothing but garbage from them. One was even caught on video saying Toronto was ridiculous and too much traffic and congestion and they would rather go back to syria and live in bombed out cars. Others complaining about the housing they have been given etc. Some complaining they arent allowed to wear the Niqab while being sworn in as Canadian citizens and some complaining when our security asked them to take them off in airports for security purposes.

From everything Ive seen and heard, I have zero sympathy for any of them. And I have no idea why our government is taking any of them in. Especially considering how much debt it puts us in only to have the liberal government ask the citizens of Canada to donate our tax returns to them to lower our debt. Heres a suggestion. Stop spending billions on a bunch of unappreciative people.

This illustrates why refugees get such a bad name. It is incredibly RUDE for a guest to behave like this in someone else's place, and if we go out to a mainly Muslim country we are expected to abide by local laws and customs, and failure to do so often has serious consequences, even for things we see as "minor matters". A British man copped a sentence of around 100 lashes for having a bottle of home brew in his car when stopped by police in one of the Middle Eastern states. On the other hand, a Muslim woman refusing to remove her face covering when asked to do so by police or security would not immediately be dragged off and thrown into a dank cell until she complied, if anything, the police or security would try to find a way to make their systems fit in with her customs.

In Germany, the new year's eve attackers didn't bother to understand that German customs, whilst seemingly lax, even decadent, in some respects compared to theirs, in other respects they were far stricter, and in particular there is a massive difference in attitudes about the status of women. Largely regarded as "chattels", the property of men, in Muslim countries, refugees regard German woman who are independent persons in their own right almost as "scum", and thus they feel it's OK to treat them like "discarded ruined property", in part as a way to punish this kind of behaviour. Many refugees have said that they are genuinely surprised to find out that they have actually committed a very serious offence in a Western country just because they have pinched a girl's arse at the swimming pool as they walked past. Oddly enough, back in the 1950's this would not have been considered an offence over here, but things have changed massively since the 1960's and 1970's with the rise of feminism and equality between men and women. This is a social change that never took place in Islam, so their attitude towards women is much like ours many years ago. Indeed, women in the UK didn't even have the right to vote in the early 1900's, and were very much regarded as the chattels of men in a similar way to how they are regarded in Islam. Whilst Victorian women didn't have to cover their face, flashing a bit of ankle was regarded as scandalous, so they were pretty heavily covered.

What we hear in the media is also heavily skewed. We hear all the bad things, but there is no coverage of groups of refugees who settle in well. Some were resettled in Bute, a small Scottish community, but not a peep from the media about how they are getting on. Presumably this is because they are fitting in well with the locals, and not causing the kind of incidents that get reporters onto the ferry to go take a look and write a story.

 

[partyhummel]

i held back from posting here, however that should be said...

Yes, some have ID - but whose?

I stand by my observations regarding muslims. These have (mostly) been indoctrinated from the age of 2 onwards and will always put their cult before your western liberal beliefs, traditions and morals. This trouble that occurs rises exponentially as their numbers grow. It has been proven already in every European nation that has taken them in. Just look for the reality, it's out there. No, not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim.

Thank you, dunover. I think the same. what some seem to be doing to their little kids seems like psychopath-education...

that is dangerous. (watch the children-stabbers in israel)

anyone who deals with <<self-censored religion name>>, without closed eyes or taqiyya-indoctrinated will see that there is no space for interpretation of their book. it is written by one man. the later parts replace the earlier ones. only the thought of idea to interprete it has to be reacted by immediate death penalty.

as someone wrote before that opinions and views are influenced by feelings - i have to add: also by experience. whoever had to deal with a true psychopath in his life will know that the situation is dangerous. btw - in berlin they are celebrating chases for us gay aboriginies sometimes and some places. thats how we stay lean... i will emigrate by the end of this year. fed up. shall they establish their beloved kalifat which our chancellor seems to love so much. i am out. my taxes also. will be paid overseas. it will be extremely boring without those new custom citizens of our regime, i hope.

please note: i do not want to offend anyone.

 

[Harry_BKK]

My 2 cents again:

- anybody rooting for the refugees should go to the countries to get first hand experience. Anything else, people mostly just know what they see on the media.

- The "men rule the world" attitude is indoctrinated from a young age.
> I have been repeatedly to all in that region, including Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Saudi-Arabia (not Iraq) and women just do not count no matter how well men are educated or westerly orientated etc etc.
> Women are there to make sure at least 1 son is born and take care of the men's needs, and for the rest it is best to just shut-up. I've been going to that region from 1996 - 2008 and in 12 years nothing has changed.
> The only country where i thought that women actually have a voice was Iran.

- Just as much the hatred against the infidel is HEAVILY, VERY HEAVILY indoctrinated into the kids brains from the youngest possible age.
> for me that borders to a crime against humanity as the children will hardly ever get a chance to form their own mind.

- that the region is not "safe" is a myth spread by activists and media.
> It might be true for a few cities but not more.
> In fact the whole region has not been "safe" for centuries if not millennia. In that nothing has changed but now suddenly everybody wants to flee from there???
> I have right now 2 ex-pat friends in northern Iraq setting up a production line which is done with UN money and probably will hardly ever be used. They said, i quote: the whole "unsafe" region chatter is just "bo***cks" to scare people.

- 60-70% of the "refugees" are young men - has anybody thought why they are sending them first???
> establish new home and then send for the family, including aunties, uncles, cousins, grandparents, nephews and the dog.
> they don't want their sons to join the army/rebel groups to defend their country as a son is essential in those regions.

- Nearly 100% of the trekking to Europe is set-up by a trafficker mafia, their tactics:
> people are scared in the refugee camps that they will be send back to the war zones or
> they are told how much money they will get in Germany/Sweden etc for free, without the need the work or
> ....list not complete

- People traveling with their families
> traffickers tell them that if they take the kids and wife then the Western countries will not turn them back, while the real reason is that a family will give the traffickers more profit.

- The Balkan route is closed, now things will return to normal
> certainly not, traffickers will not accept that
> other routes will be found quickly and will be more expensive for the "refugees" = more profit for the mafia


Could list a lot more but i am just tired of seeing the news and how sorry i should feel for this and for that. If somebody has 10.000's USD to pay the traffickers then that money could be put to a much better use for other things, like pay the rental for a temporary home close their country and getting the kids to school etc..

There is surely no need to travel illegally halfway around the world, which is making only the mafia rich, just to be safe.

I repeat now myself:

Why are we not seeing any Mujaheddin families or just sons fleeing and demanding entry into Europe ???? They stay there and fight for their country.

 

[lockinlove]

What we hear in the media is also heavily skewed. We hear all the bad things, but there is no coverage of groups of refugees who settle in well.

The media in Canada is pro liberal. You ask any Canadian and they will say most news sources go out of their way to try and make the refugee situation positive. They would try and do everything not to post bad stories and they got a massive amount of flack from the public why they werent showing stories about new refugees trying to protest on our streets after being here a few days demanding our laws be changed to suit them.

It took awhile but then they started showing the crap they were trying to pull here. And how every single time a muslim was told no here, they ran to a media outlet to complain and get their story heard and yell racism. Or parade down our streets in protest.

Some Canadians got sick of it and some muslims were affected by it. You started seeing stories in the news of muslims being verbally attacked here, being told to leave our country among other things.

They need to understand and grasp this is not their country. Our government did them a favor taking them out of a war torn third world country and put them into a first world country where they were actually given a chance at a good life. Instead, they insult our country, our laws and our way of life and use the media like their own personal weapon.

Instead of learning from the situation in Germany, Paris and wherever else. Our government would rather buy votes.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The media in Canada is pro liberal. You ask any Canadian and they will say most news sources go out of their way to try and make the refugee situation positive. They would try and do everything not to post bad stories and they got a massive amount of flack from the public why they werent showing stories about new refugees trying to protest on our streets after being here a few days demanding our laws be changed to suit them.

It took awhile but then they started showing the crap they were trying to pull here. And how every single time a muslim was told no here, they ran to a media outlet to complain and get their story heard and yell racism. Or parade down our streets in protest.

Some Canadians got sick of it and some muslims were affected by it. You started seeing stories in the news of muslims being verbally attacked here, being told to leave our country among other things.

They need to understand and grasp this is not their country. Our government did them a favor taking them out of a war torn third world country and put them into a first world country where they were actually given a chance at a good life. Instead, they insult our country, our laws and our way of life and use the media like their own personal weapon.

Instead of learning from the situation in Germany, Paris and wherever else. Our government would rather buy votes.

Here, the media will run many of the bad refugee stories - it sells papers. They will also run stories based on some refugees who run to the media because they don't like what they find here and want to force change to make our country more suited to their culture. Unfortunately, this often backfires and the story is often twisted in a way to scare locals into seeing this as yet another "proof" that we are being invaded by a clandestine army that is already on the verge of victory. The liberals have been able to silence debate in many of the new "safe spaces" that they have managed to create in academic circles, but they are having a tough time trying to keep order in the "unsafe spaces" of right wing groups and tabloid press seeking to run stories that are most likely to generate sales.

We have also seen a sharp rise in intolerance of ordinary Muslims, irrespective of what brand of Islam they follow, they are all lumped in with the "extreme" interpretations that newcomers are bringing with them from the more hard line Islamic regions. Small groups of those with more extreme views can also do a great deal of damage, as in the recent "Trojan horse" scandal that emerged in a number of state schools where governing panels were stacked with hard line Muslims, who then tried to quietly change the state schools over to a stricter Islamic model. They got exposed because they repeatedly pushed out non Muslims from teaching and other posts, and of course employment laws eventually became their downfall, and an investigation followed. Now of course, ALL Muslims who seek to work in schools will have their motives regarded with suspicion, the damage is done.

The strange thing is that the refugees are determined to stoke up the hatred even more. Far from realising that past behaviour has almost caused the humanitarian door to be slammed in their faces and that they need to tread carefully in the interests of their own lives and those of the families, newcomers seem to out compete those who came before to see who can behave the worst. Now, the humanitarian door really has been slammed in their faces, and they are squealing with indignation, pointing out all the women and children who will die in freezing camps, or on the long march to Europe. But, every time they squeal now, up goes another razor wire fence at another border. Merkel still seems to be supporting them being allowed into Europe, but it doesn't look like she will be in any position of power to implement this for much longer.

Eventually, there WILL be a Europe much like the countries the refugees came from, an intolerant mostly secular viewpoint that if anything will launch a war on religion having any kind of say in how the state operates. It will also be a Europe that puts it's own people first, which will not tolerate money being spent on other countries whilst our own people are lacking the basics like food, shelter, and proper medical care due to "lack of government funding".

 

[lockinlove]

I hope this doesnt offend anyone and I write this okay but tonight I had an issue and it really pissed me off.

After going out with some friends, i decided to buy a $200 prepaid card at Macs (a well known convenient store) I paid cash.I chatted to the cashier before giving him the prepaid. Im familiar with this location and told him I didnt recognize him. He told me he is one of the refugees from Syria and he just arrived and his family own some of the Macs here.

Ok whatever.

Suddenly I give him this prepaid and he gets really weird. Like Im scamming him weird. He sells it to me. I go home and realize I need milk so I hit up the other macs which is right around the corner. I leave.

I come home and try to deposit. Issue with the card. So I call mastercard and they say the store didnt activate it. So I go back to the closest macs. This guy talks to me like im a scammer. So I go to the macs I bought it from. The guy knew I was coming cause his Syrian family member told him in advance Im assuming. He had the bill on the counter waiting for me. I walk in the door and this guy throws his arms up "No. No. You come back tomorrow when my boss is here. I was told about you Canadians and your scams. I am not fixing anything for you".

I get pissed right off. I say how can I scam someone when I paid you with $20 bills. Who do you think you are coming to this country and calling me a scammer. Who are you to think you can accuse me. Who are to pretend to activate the card but dont........on purpose. Who do you think you are conspiring with the other store and speaking like im a scammer. I know alot of people in this area and Im going to warn them about you etc. Go screw yourself you idiot" And I left. I was so mad.

All I have read and heard from friends is how pathetic unappreciative these people are. Please someone fill me in, why do we take these people in? Why after our government has seen what these people do and act in other countries, do they still take them in? The only reason I can see, is to buy votes.

Im not trying clump them all together. But when I hear a positive story about what they bring, please let me know

 

[maxd]

As a fellow Canadian I must say that I'm surprised to hear you say "when I hear a positive story about what they bring, please let me know". You do realize that Canada is a nation of immigrants, yes? Every non-first-nations person in the country is from, or a descendant of someone from, somewhere else. Scots, Germans, Poles, Italians, Greeks, Ukrainians, English, French, Indian, Caribbean, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, etc etc. If it wasn't for immigrants Canada wouldn't even be on the map!

Personally I've always looked back at Canada -- I've been away some years now -- as an excellent example of a country that more or less does immigration right. Sure, in the short term there can be growing pains, but in the long run Canada is a fine country, much enriched by its cultural diversity, something to be very proud of -- aside from the fact that we stole it from those first nations I mentioned -- and it's almost ALL thanks to wave after wave of immigration.

Admittedly Canada has had a lot of space to share with those immigrants but that's not whole story. Look at Toronto, arguably the most culturally diverse place in the country per square mile and it is massively influenced by its ethnic diversity. And mostly in the best possible way. It's also one of the most densely populated places in the country so gobs of empty space can't be the only thing that makes immigration work.

From what I've seen immigration is by far a net gain for every country I've ever known -- four to date -- and I haven't seen anything recently to make me doubt that. Are there short term problems? Absolutely! Can every country absorb abrupt, massive floods of immigration? Probably not. But overall, in the long run, any country that shuts its borders and denies or severely restricts immigration is impoverishing its own future.

That said I suppose you could say that my comments are far from unbiased because I am, by my own admission, pretty much a professional immigrant. I've spent my entire adult life on the move but I would say that I've contributed far more to every place I've been that I ever took out: I work hard, pay my taxes, I'm healthy and contribute liberally to the local economy. From what the politicians say that makes me an ideal citizen!

And in my experience that's exactly what most immigrants are: hard-working, industrious, readily contributing to the economies of their new homes. Most arguments against such people are short-term and very near-sighted. In the long run they may well become the back-bone of a stronger, more diverse society. The Canadian experience of this is not unique, history is full of such stories. I've yet to hear a convincing case of the reverse: where immigration crippled and ruined a country the way the doom-sayers would have us believe.

Let me give an example of what I mean: when I lived in Montreal back in the 90s I met a Jewish gentleman in his 60s. He and his two brothers had been shipped to Canada as orphans from the Holocaust, the oldest of them in his early teens. When they arrived they were held in camps with many others like them on the docks of Toronto while the immigration issue raged in the House of Commons and the newspapers. He had clippings, almost all hysterical, racist stuff about how these "rootless" immigrants were going to be a terrible burden on society, etc. Not much different than what we hear today, give or take a few details.

Today those three brothers are the parents of an extended family of probably close to 40 people. They became teachers and business men -- creating hundreds of jobs by the way -- while their children, and their children's children, have (as you might imagine) found places in every corner and profession in the land. They live coast to coast and having met many of them I can tell you that you'd be lucky and happy to count them your friends. Bloody inspirational really and yet their experience is simply the Canadian experience: come, work, grow and thrive. And as a slice of Canadiana I can't imagine a better group to take as an example. And it all started with three "rootless little foreigners" from the middle of Europe. If anyone can see something to criticize in that story or countless others like it I'll eat my favourite hat.

 

[goatwack]

Sorry but this isn't just about immigration and pockets of people of different nationalities settling in a foreign land to make a better life. Pretty certain that the US and Canada may not regard this as a big issue and may have set quotas of Syrians officially allowed in, wheras in Europe it seems to be limitless in number, as evidenced by Ms Merkel's wonderful gesture of 'bring as many as you like, we can take it'.

Religious incompatibilty is the main point that gets glossed over with alarming regularity. It isn't about allowing a couple of million refugees in but rather peoples of hatred of our democratic and especially Christian ancestry and lifestyles. Integration is not something Muslims are particularly renowned for, and should any pretense be made on their behalf to accept our freedoms, there will always linger a deep resentment towards anyone not of their religious standing.

Whilst we turn the other cheek and cross our fingers in the belief that integration is feasible and our cultures can merge in such large numbers. Not likely, more likely that our desire to appear kind and apologist will ensure that our western vices and lifestyles will be curtailed to accommodate cultural changes to favour what is still a minority of the population.

It may take 20 years or 50, but you can be certain that the only integration that will occur is segments of Muslim law being fused with our own and destroying the fabric of what are predominantly Christian countries. And I don't say this lightly either, I'm bloody part- Iranian so it's evidently visible that there is massive upheaval here in the UK and other European countries which the rest of the watching world doesn't quite 'get'.

 

[maxd]

Sorry but this isn't just about immigration and pockets of people of different nationalities settling in a foreign land to make a better life.

Actually yes, it is. For example I'm a recent immigrant to the UK from the EU. Our process in getting here was made MUCH more difficult and long-drawn-out by recent changes to the UK immigration rules. And my wife -- of 17 years! -- is a UK citizen ffs! I seriously doubt I'm the only person is such a situation so yes, the people of "different nationalities [trying to] settling in a foreign land to make a better life" becomes part of the same f***ed up anti-immigration BS as everyone else.

And I personally don't believe that there is any such thing as "religious incompatibilty". People of various religions have been on each other's backs since the human race started gathering in groups in caves. It's as timeless as it gets for us and while the current situation with the Muslim population in Western Europe may be vexing it is hardly unique or intractable. We're all part of history and history tells us that today's insurmountable problems become tomorrow's potholes on the road of progress. Look for a way through it and we'll find it; take it as the end of the world and it may well appear to be so.

 

[goatwack]

Actually yes, it is. For example I'm a recent immigrant to the UK from the EU. Our process in getting here was made MUCH more difficult and long-drawn-out by recent changes to the UK immigration rules. And my wife -- of 17 years! -- is a UK citizen ffs! I seriously doubt I'm the only person is such a situation so yes, the people of "different nationalities [trying to] settling in a foreign land to make a better life" becomes part of the same f***ed up anti-immigration BS as everyone else.

And I personally don't believe that there is any such thing as "religious incompatibilty". People of various religions have been on each other's backs since the human race started gathering in groups in caves. It's as timeless as it gets for us and while the current situation with the Muslim population in Western Europe may be vexing it is hardly unique or intractable. We're all part of history and history tells us that today's insurmountable problems become tomorrow's potholes on the road of progress. Look for a way through it and we'll find it; take it as the end of the world and it may well appear to be so.

And I respectfully disagree. That may be your opinion, but that's all it is. It is no more valid than mine or my experiences, just as I don't doubt your personal circumstances and viewpoints, just as mentioned in some recent thread about opinions vs facts.

And yes history is littered with religious differences, some have been overcome and others last to this day. It's a nice sentiment you end on but unfortunately not shared by all parties involved.

 

[maxd]

... That may be your opinion, but that's all it is. It is no more valid than mine or my experiences....

Absolutely! I thought that went without saying. My point in posting was that the anti-immigration rhetoric too often goes unchallenged. And for some folks that makes it sound like truth. I disagree, more often that not it is not truth. As you say, it's often just an opinion and -- IMO -- all too often an opinion formed without taking relevant history and facts into consideration.

 

[dunover]

One must wonder how we managed for 900 years without significant immigration in the British Isles. I mean, all the benefits and 'cultural enrichment' it has brought, how did we ever get along without it?

We lived in wattle and daub houses up until after WWII, had no medicines and vaccinations, couldn't fly anywhere or sail further than 1 mile in our coracles. We had dirt tracks instead of tarmac roads, no telephones, no TV, no radio and oxen to plough the fields.

Then came mass immigration and wow! We then had health care, education, computers, jet travel, international holidays, TV, radio, Roads, Railways and cars! Instead of catching trout in the local rivers and eating hazelnuts, we had curry! Then came vaccinations, the internet and atomic power and plastics and stainless steel! Before WWII us tribal Britons were always killing and raping and attacking each other, burning churches and vandalizing anything we didn't like the look of - now we can read and write and even have sewers and flushing closets!

I urge you all to ask your governments for MORE immigration! It will advance your crap and backward homogenous cultures into the 21st. century and make you very wealthy and happy and peaceful and you'll never feel unsafe again! You've all got so much to learn from these people and once here you will realize how bad and unhappy your life was previously!

 

[lockinlove]

Sorry but this isn't just about immigration and pockets of people of different nationalities settling in a foreign land to make a better life.

This is well said right here.

I have no problem with immigrants...as long as they follow the laws and way of life here. You dont just arrive in a country that is giving you a chance at a good life, and start protesting on the streets. Demanding our laws be changed and education program.

And most of these people didnt want to be here.....until forced to come because of their war torn country.

 

[maxd]

One must wonder how we managed for 900 years without significant immigration in the British Isles ...

Dude, know your history much? Most of the migration to the UK has happened IN the past 900 years though admittedly the pre-1100 migrants made rather a bigger splash when they arrived (invasions):

• Romans 43-410 AD
• Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Franks 400-600 AD
• Danes And Norwegians 789-1104 AD
• Normans 1066
• Jews 1066-1290 and later particularly 1881-1914 and 1933-39
• Lombards and the Hanseatic League 1250-1598
• The Flemish and Walloons 1337-1550
• Gypsies from 1500
• Huguenots (France) 1560-1720
• German Palatines 1693-1709
• Africans and West Indians 1555-1833 and into the 20th century
• Indians and Chinese 1700 and onwards
• Europeans including Germans and Italians 18th and 19th centuries
• Belgians 1914-1918
• Poles 20th century

And that list largely ignores Commonwealth immigration. The British Isles may not have experienced the massive same immigrant waves that North America did but they are as much a product of their immigrants as most other places. Probably worth mentioning that pretty much every British monarch and many of the aristocracy have complained bitterly about the "invasions" and erosion of culture. Sound familiar?

 

[dunover]

Dude, know your history much? Most of the migration to the UK has happened IN the past 900 years though admittedly the pre-1100 migrants made rather a bigger splash when they arrived:

• Romans 43-410 AD
• Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Franks circa 400-600 AD
• Danes And Norwegians 789-1104 AD
• Normans 1066
• Jews 1066-1290, from 1656, and particularly 1881-1914 and 1933-39
• Lombards and the Hanseatic League 1250-1598
• The Flemish and Walloons 1337-1550
• Gypsies from 1500
• Huguenots 1560-1720
• German Palatines 1693-1709
• Africans and West Indians 1555-1833 and onwards
• Indians and Chinese 1700 and onwards
• Europeans including Germans and Italians 18th and 19th centuries
• Belgians 1914-1918
• Poles 20th century

The British Isles are as much a product of their immigrants as most other places although pretty much every monarch and many of the aristocracy have complained bitterly about the "invasions" and erosion of culture. Sound familiar?

Don't forget I said 'significant' immigration - as you know that means in relation to population.....

Edward 2 expelled the Jews, and it wasn't until Cromwell they were admitted again. Immigration up until 1066 is moot as I accepted when I said 900 years that this was really the start of our modern nation and was colonization rather than immigration, a totally different concept to the modern term.

And I am glad of your list, as almost exclusively they are fellow N. European Christians where aside from initial language differences integration was relatively smooth. We also retained large numbers of German and Italian POWs here after WWII.

Nowhere in your list are large numbers of indoctrinated non-Europeans whose underlying aim is to undermine and change the product of those previous migrations you mention.

It is also worth pointing out that none of those periods (pro-rata to the existing population at the time) exceeded 1/25 (4%) of the rate of immigration in recent years. That is the whole point. Your history shows that unlike today, numbers were sensible and of similar cultural backgrounds to us and therefore assimilated relatively easily without the hideous social effects we endure today. Think modern immigration has 'enriched' Paris then?

My post was merely sending up the plethora of bullcrap the press and pundits (especially the Blatantly Biased Corporation) try and use to dress up the fact it's gone terribly wrong, in the manner of someone who's written your car off and tries to tell you a wash and wax will sort it all out.

 

[maxd]

... Think modern immigration has 'enriched' Paris then? ...

Don't forget I lived there for 13 years and only recently left. I'm well aware of the immigrant issues in Paris -- a significant part of the reason I left as it happens -- and I put most of the blame for it at the feet of the French themselves. But that's another topic.

My point was and is that in the long run immigration itself is much more of a plus than a minus under normal circumstances by which I mostly mean modest rates of influx. See previous posts if you doubt that I've made that clear.

In other words it's not immigrants that are "the problem". Taking that line of argument is largely just xenophobic and racist. HOW the immigration is managed and the rate of immigration is, IMO, more to the point.

But I'm well aware of the fact that I'm not about to change anyone's mind on this: those against immigrants have already made up their minds. My purpose in piping up here was to show that slamming all "immigrants" for the troubles of the day is short-sighted in the extreme. The issues are much more complex than a blanket "no foreigners" stance will ever meaningfully address.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I hope this doesnt offend anyone and I write this okay but tonight I had an issue and it really pissed me off.

After going out with some friends, i decided to buy a $200 prepaid card at Macs (a well known convenient store) I paid cash.I chatted to the cashier before giving him the prepaid. Im familiar with this location and told him I didnt recognize him. He told me he is one of the refugees from Syria and he just arrived and his family own some of the Macs here.

Ok whatever.

Suddenly I give him this prepaid and he gets really weird. Like Im scamming him weird. He sells it to me. I go home and realize I need milk so I hit up the other macs which is right around the corner. I leave.

I come home and try to deposit. Issue with the card. So I call mastercard and they say the store didnt activate it. So I go back to the closest macs. This guy talks to me like im a scammer. So I go to the macs I bought it from. The guy knew I was coming cause his Syrian family member told him in advance Im assuming. He had the bill on the counter waiting for me. I walk in the door and this guy throws his arms up "No. No. You come back tomorrow when my boss is here. I was told about you Canadians and your scams. I am not fixing anything for you".

I get pissed right off. I say how can I scam someone when I paid you with $20 bills. Who do you think you are coming to this country and calling me a scammer. Who are you to think you can accuse me. Who are to pretend to activate the card but dont........on purpose. Who do you think you are conspiring with the other store and speaking like im a scammer. I know alot of people in this area and Im going to warn them about you etc. Go screw yourself you idiot" And I left. I was so mad.

All I have read and heard from friends is how pathetic unappreciative these people are. Please someone fill me in, why do we take these people in? Why after our government has seen what these people do and act in other countries, do they still take them in? The only reason I can see, is to buy votes.

Im not trying clump them all together. But when I hear a positive story about what they bring, please let me know

This is the kind of personal experience that makes someone negative about immigration. Funnily enough, the migrant has fallen into the exact same trap by assuming all Canadians are out to scam him. However as the newcomer the migrant should have made themselves more aware of the rules and customs of their host country before taking on a role as a shop assistant, where their negativity could quickly create a situation where many of the locals turn against the newcomers. If this newly arrived member of staff treats ALL the regular customers like this, it will bring trouble upon the whole family, even the settled portion that owns many of these stores. This in turn could kill the business as the customers would look for somewhere else.

 

[slotplayer]

Please don't compare the WWII generation with the current generation.
If you like the Muslim culture so much, by all means take it and enjoy it.

While you're add it come here to my neighborhood and take all the Latinos to.

Sincerely,
The last American in my neighborhood.

 

[benmooe]

I live in the area which was profiled for a documentary on Channel 4 in the UK called "Immigration Street". The area used to be a red light district and in recent times has become a large (majority) muslim population. It's an area that was described as a no-whites zone on american tv by a british conservative MP and apparently has a sharia patrol.

The people here are actually super nice, Some are a bit frightened as it's an area that has been targeted by far-right groups but they have an amazing work ethic and are really quite friendly. The road now has several markets and shops which sell everything i want lower than the supermarkets, even fresh spices nearly 10x cheaper than buying the little glass jars of them from Tesco or Asda.

Also, The shops here sell alcohol and pork just like any other, Just not the halal ones of course but they sell fresh stuffed naans so i'm happy with that haha.

One of the halal supermarket owners has become a self made entrepreneur as of recent by opening up a chain of gelato shops. Originally there was one in Southampton in an old kebab shop and there are now 10 around the south coast and London.

I was quite scared before moving into the area i must admit, but the community have been very good to me. They feel more like a community to me than when I was living in a predominantly white neighbourhood. Yes, they celebrate a lot of things that i don't quite understand but during Ramadan, I always get fed really well when the whole street is breaking fast. I'm on "brother" terms with the shop owners (when you get the deals and they always call you brother haha). Never met more lovely people.

Anyway, Thats my point of view, I might be looking at it through rose tinted glasses but i've lived here for nearly 2 years and i've not had any complaints.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This is a good positive story, and also illustrates that what you see in a TV "documentary" is not necessarily unbiased. It's often the case that the film makers want to make a film or series that will pull in viewers, so of course they have to focus on controversy. A film about you all getting along nicely might not draw in enough viewers, and thus not make enough money. There was considerable protest about this particular film, which was originally going to be a series. Unfortunately, the protestors played into the film makers hands by resorting to violent protest that was caught on camera, and this only served to reinforce the view that the community had something to hide that they would not allow to be revealed on TV.

The benefit street series was also controversial, and turned an ordinary resident into a reality TV star, but at least it got her off benefits and into work. It's likely that bias is introduced because the common factor has been that they follow a small number of families, rather than the entire community, and it's probably the most controversial and extrovert families that get picked.

What we don't get is a film showing the same community from a different point of view, such as the better behaved but shy families who don't court controversy and just want to get on with their lives.

STILL no news of the migrants accepted from the UN camps and sent to live in Bute, so they must all be behaving themselves and getting along well with the locals.

 

[benmooe]

This is a good positive story, and also illustrates that what you see in a TV "documentary" is not necessarily unbiased. It's often the case that the film makers want to make a film or series that will pull in viewers, so of course they have to focus on controversy. A film about you all getting along nicely might not draw in enough viewers, and thus not make enough money. There was considerable protest about this particular film, which was originally going to be a series. Unfortunately, the protestors played into the film makers hands by resorting to violent protest that was caught on camera, and this only served to reinforce the view that the community had something to hide that they would not allow to be revealed on TV.

The benefit street series was also controversial, and turned an ordinary resident into a reality TV star, but at least it got her off benefits and into work. It's likely that bias is introduced because the common factor has been that they follow a small number of families, rather than the entire community, and it's probably the most controversial and extrovert families that get picked.

What we don't get is a film showing the same community from a different point of view, such as the better behaved but shy families who don't court controversy and just want to get on with their lives.

STILL no news of the migrants accepted from the UN camps and sent to live in Bute, so they must all be behaving themselves and getting along well with the locals.

Unfortunately when Love Films were meeting with locals, they were targeting people in the area. Even Rafique, after they filmed his parts had signs in his shop to not have love films come in because he felt they were focusing on trying to get him to badmouth white peoples work ethic. (Rafique is the guy who had the shops and the apartments if you saw the doc). Seriously, the local mosques and even the sikh temple allowed Love Films to hold consultations in their halls and the doc makers ignored the communities concerns.

The people who chased the crew away were in an area called St Marys which is closer to the council owned flats and is quite a rough area. The local Mosque associations spoke out against what happened but, y'know, as the film crew weren't welcome, they made out it was all connected.

We also have a Polish supermarket and South African store in the area, The cheap rent here attracts migrants and it brings low price groceries. If you live in the UK i would highly recommend checking these places out if you're looking to save a bundle on your weekly shop. Barter with the halal supermarkets and buy the brand names from the polish ones. Polish people are very particular about their brands which is why there are so many of them. Kind of like when you see all the British stores in Spain.

 

[asm]

When people speak of immigrant crime, particularly crime that is performed by people of middle eastern origin, or the occurance of terrorism, some people are the first ones to blame it on islamic culture or religion, which to them appears to be particularly bloodthirsty or medieval.

Strangely enough, when you have people like Breivik or Lubitz mass murdering people, or random schmucks who wake up in the morning and kill their families, they're just little loonies who dived a bit too deep. They appear to be no part of a culture and/or (judeochristian) religion that marks the worth of a being by rather trivial things like appearance, work, or how disgustingly social you can be, or a culture where antidepressants are a solution of you simply not coping in artificial stress of living a rather empty life where you buy things you don't need to make you happy.

Not to suggest that a life long atheist like myself should get on a podium and defend something I don't believe in to begin with (islam), but jesus said something about the beam in your own eye, and perhaps it'd be better to cope with, and fix things you can actually partake in rather than being upset over a demographic most people have little to nothing to do with.