4 common gaming myths

[PlexRep]

I am still concerned at this idea of "fraud" also including mere "playing to win", rather than "playing for fun".

Operators always say they cannot say exactly what they mean by "fraud" because of "security concerns", yet it is clear that from some of the cases, operators ARE saying "fraud" when they mean "skilled/disciplined play".

Excellent post.

I'm all for calling a spade a spade. Depositing with the intention of charging back, creating multiple accounts, depositing with funds that are not your own, collusion.... This is Fraud, and the players in question should be punished to the highest extent. Hangings to good for em I say.

Carefully studying the terms of a bonus and calculating the best way to maximise potential profit - Not Fraud! These are actions casinos should anticipate.

That said, I can still understand why players of the second category are being penalized. Casinos have a bottom line after all. If you get a lot of advantage players coming in then your profits potentially drop, and the next time you offer a bonus to your players it gets less generous to account for these advantage players. By bonus banning advantage players the casino is trying to make things more attractive to the 'recreational' player.

Many advanage players are good people. Advantage players don't break the law. And as far as I can tell they are not doing anything wrong. I don't think it is fair that their name gets put besides "fraudsters" which is something illegal.

Again I agree. The label is wrong. If someone has found a way to use your bonus offers to consistently turn a profit then you can call them many things. 'Fraudster' is not one of them. The only reason they often get mentioned together is they both affect the way casinos will structure and offer their bonuses.

 

[4 of a kind]

I think the 4 online gaming myths that PlexRep decided to bring forward and discuss strikes the center of the heart for most if not all online gamers, at one time or another.

There may very well be several straight casinos operators out there, but there are obviously way more rogue operators, if we were to take the list of the present accredited casinos (until further notice) serious. If we were to compare who’s on the list to who’s not on the list what would be the ratio? One hundred to one? Are all these other casinos not on the list actually all rogue operators with proven rogue records; or are their many of these not listed casinos that do in fact fit the criteria to be on the list but are not willing to pay the fees to be there?

My point here is that the online gamer especially the newbie who decides to give online gaming a whirl, would technically have a 100 to 1 chance of picking a safe place to play. Most of these players don’t even know their getting screwed and learn about places like CM till it’s too late.

Most posters on sites like this are experienced gamers speaking for the most part from experiences of decades of trials and errors playing online, and could only compare it to their experiences playing at B&M’s.

Putting aside issues that will always come with bonuses, timely payments, etc. and concentrating on the four myths PlexRep is trying to put to rest will never be achieved without regulation and enforcement. Just because an IGaming rep comes here and tells everyone not to worry if you are selective in your choices where you play, what about the other 95% of the population of players that don’t know any better, or that this forum even exists? I played online for 8 years before finding this forum.

My question to PlexRep is it’s obvious you speak for a very small minority of online casinos and I’m certain you’re accurate in your comments. Since you have obviously nothing to hide and want to be transparent, would you be willing to share with the rest of us the actual gaming regulations software providers must abide by similar to B&M’s that openly share this information to anyone that asks? Who makes the RTP setting decisions online? We all know land based casinos could only go so low with these settings, and it's up to the casino where they want to set them. Do online software providers dictate to the operators what they must be? Regardless if there’s any enforcement or not of alleged online regulations, we would at least be interested in knowing what and how far technically online casinos are authorized to go. I along with several others pursued this quest with endless efforts only to come up 100% empty.

Maybe finally someone is willing to step forward and share with us more then just words. If not I could provide a list of thousands of threads from this forum that have just as many rights to being glorified a “Best Posting Award” claiming the exact opposite.

I know everyone is excited that a gaming rep came forward and made a cameo appearance and started a thread, and I will be trashed as usual for being objective. But what is the difference when comparing my accusations to PlexRep’s?

There just words printed on a screen…

 

[3mptyseat]

There is a version on MG software that is not audited by eCogra, and yet the sites that run this platform for their US players have no problem citing the accreditation that their viper platform has earned even though its not the same product.

And some casinos do intentionally delay withdraws just to be Richard.

And I am pretty sure no one thinks the industry is on the verge of collapse... Look at all these healthy affiliates (I see no ribs) and the plethora of stories funneling in about deposits lost in such and such a way. The industry is young and it has developmental issues, but it will grow and grow and be a much more transparent cyber-underworld in the future...

Who do you work for Plex-Rep?

 

[PlexRep]

the online gamer especially the newbie who decides to give online gaming a whirl, would technically have a 100 to 1 chance of picking a safe place to play.

This I would disagree with. There is no way for any of us to know the exact ratio, but 100-1 seems very pessimistic to me.

would you be willing to share with the rest of us the actual gaming regulations software providers must abide by similar to B&M’s that openly share this information to anyone that asks?

For the restrictions and regulations placed on operators by licencing bodies, it’s there for all to see on Google. The LGA for example: Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
Unfortunately, all my roles in the industry have been with operators and either marketing/affiliate or customer services based, and as such I’ve not seen the contracts or regulations placed on software providers or in turn those imposed by those same providers on the operators. I know the restrictions and limits exist, I just dont know exactly what they are, and even if I did it would only be for one or possible two of the software providors out there. It's also not a topic I've discussed with friends and colleagues in the industry, but should I come across anything that I am allowed to share that I feel would be beneficial for players to know too, rest assured I will.

I know everyone is excited that a gaming rep came forward and made a cameo appearance and started a thread, and I will be trashed as usual for being objective.

One thing I've learned here is if you are respectful and honest you'll never be bashed. Your post was well written and intelligent and as such a welcome addition to the thread imo. As for my 'cameo' I've actually been a cm member for many years. It's just the handle that's new.

Who do you work for Plex-Rep?

I work for a casino and poker room not yet on the accredited list, but (and I guess for now you'll just have to take my word for it) not a rogue outfit either. The URL's for my sites can be found in my profile.

 

[KasinoKing]

Hi KK,

As regards Malta authority being a joke...mmmm...do not agree. The Malta LGA has considerably tightened up the last 2 years, difficult now for companies to even get a Letter of Intent before a full license is given.

As regards the RNG, (The payout percentage, is audited on a monthly basis by one of the leading international testing and auditing firms). If you know the basis of what the RNG is, then to add a variable into the algorythm, to "influence", the outcome - this would appear on the audit, maybe not immediately, but certainly within a few months.

I know a lot of players think the RNG can be modified in the Casino interest, but Ive never seen this in over 12 years online experience at a senior level.

Re Malta; Have you seen this? Best Worst 2010

I think you and I have a totally different understanding of what an RNG is.
To me a Random Number Generator is just a computer program which Generates a Random Number. Nothing more, nothing less.
This number is then used by the software to select a card, a number on a roulette wheel, or the spin on a slot.
i.e. By my definition an RNG can not be "rigged" - only the software which makes use of it can. Therefore, to me, RNG and payout percentages have no link whatsoever.
Basically though - I think we agree on this!

KK

 

[4 of a kind]

I work for a casino and poker room not yet on the accredited list, but (and I guess for now you'll just have to take my word for it) not a rogue outfit either. The URL's for my sites can be found in my profile.

This is a quote from the about us page from CasinoPlex where you presently are employed:

CasinoPlex first opened its doors to the public in 2003 and has been dedicated to providing the best online gaming experience to its customers ever since. In 2010, the site came under the management of E-play24 Ltd, a team of professionals with decades of experience in the online casino industry.


Now here is a quote from the accredited page here about Playtech software provider that also only lists 4 of your brand casinos as accredited:

There are only a handful of Playtech casinos that are accredited. This is due to a number of reasons; some of these casino groups are non-communicative, some are in the rogue pit, and quite a number do not comply with the accredited standards. Nevertheless, the Playtech casinos that follows are excellent casinos to become a member of.


Could you be more specific with us here which reason mentioned above by Bryan is preventing your casino from being on the accredited list after 8 years of existence?


In addition thank you for the URL to the LGA in your above post, but this is common knowledge about restrictions and regulations allegedly placed on operators by licensing bodies should you want to obtain an operating license, and has nothing at all to do with the actual gaming regulations. If you should be able to stumble across them in the future, please don't hesitate to inform us here.

 

[Da_Gambla]

When ideals clash... it can never end. The more questions this rep answers, the more questions he's going to receive. And in the end, he states, "should I come across anything that I am allowed to share...", which essentially means there is still, and probably always will be, certain aspects that will never be transparent, and hence, those questions never satisfied.

Looking back over this thread, it's looking like this to me... and again, these are my views alone.

They all had a weekend love-fest, and it went well. Obviously topics of building bigger business dominated, and it probably always does. His represented casinos are not accredited, and I think that's key here. IMO, they are seeking that, and not in a nefarious way at all. I think his presence here is to establish rapport with this community (previous handle/presence duly noted), and then the next step will be seeing some of his represented casinos enter the Baptism by Fire section.

If this is the case, that's a great thing. More accredited casinos are always a welcomed sight.

Since this thread is starting to kind of spiral towards issues that no representative can probably openly discuss, it might start getting ugly in here.

I'll say once again, the spirit of your original post was keen, it just isn't really that way for a majority of online casinos - yet. All these specifics and menutia discussions always head south faster than your last $10 on slots. As 4 of a kind pointed out, these Forums have vast amounts of vast threads that all eventually went no where.

- Keith

 

[PlexRep]

Sorry it's taken me a couple of days to reply.

@4oak - probably best not to go into detail about my own casino in this thread for fear of a derail and sounding spammy, so I've PM'd you the info you're looking for. What I will say is we do look forward to the (hopefully soon) day when we begin our own baptism by fire.

@Da_Gambla - I'm glad you took my post in the spirit it was intended. I really appreciate yours (and indeed everyones input) here, and while I'm not the Guru on the mount and I wont have all the answers you seek I do intend to stick around and contribute/help wherever I can. Mostly I'll be able to help or advise about bonus offers, terms and conditions etc with that being my specific field.

Without the need for a 'rep friendly' thread we had quite a good discussion imo, and the gaps in my knowledge aside it may encourage other reps to be more proactive too, which can only be a good thing.

 

[felicie]

"but should I come across anything that I am allowed to share that I feel would be beneficial for players to know too, rest assured I will."

'Allowed to share' pretty well sums up the conclusion that I myself have come to accept and I appreciate a rep finally saying it right out.
Thank you good thread.

 

[ksech]

Without the need for a 'rep friendly' thread we had quite a good discussion imo, and the gaps in my knowledge aside it may encourage other reps to be more proactive too, which can only be a good thing.

Unfortunately, I think some of the reps feel "threatened" when they start to contribute in a thread. It's not that the players want to verbally bash them (okay, maybe some do) concerning withdrawal times, game play, etc, BUT the casino also needs to look at from the players' perspective.

The players are willing to "financially" back a casino when they make a deposit, and I honestly feel that the casinos need to be aware (maybe they are?) that instanteous deposits and 5-7 day waiting periods for a withdrawal is too much to ask. Maybe in the "good ole days", but times have changed and the casinos need to sympathize with the players a little more.

I don't understand all the RTP jargon, and I'm not going to pretend that I do. BUT, It used to be you could deposit $20 and spend hours spinning the reels, now most players (and this a collective assumption on my part) are lucky if they get a few minutes for their buck. So, something has definitely changed.

When you can go 100's of spins with no feature and very small line wins, it takes the enjoyment out of playing.
Example: I've tried break The Bank Again hundreds of times. The last 10-15 times I played, when I FINALLY was able to "capture" the free win feature, payouts equalled absolutely NOTHING! Now come on, you put in $50 in spins and don't even win a dollar? Before I quit playing, I won 3 free spin features in a row, the one free spin feature I had 23 retriggers and didn't win anything. What are the odds of that? Yes, I know it's called gambling, but at least allow the player a smallish win to keep them "hooked".

Whereas, that same day, I played Supe It Up, had 7 retriggers and cashed out over $500. So, thank goodness for the lucky play on that game to make up for the lose on the other. I'm sure if I had gone BACK to play Supe It Up again, I wouldn't have won anything for a few hundred spins and would have played the money all back.

You can go read thread after thread of different casinos who players think have "thightened" their slots, thread after thread of players being jerked around waiting for withdrawals, and to keep up with the new "gambling" jargon and their meanings is getting frustrating. You have "bonus abusers", "negative value players", "advantage players", players who don't play in the "spirit of the bonus". etc...What about the poor sap who has a few bucks, wants to take a few spins and then ends up having to fight tooth and nail to claim a small win?

I understand there are fraudsters out there, and I understand there are "bonus whores/abusers", but what about the HONEST, LEGITIMATE player who gets caught up in the tuna net (I think this was a referral here?) and has to send the casino everything except their firstborn? It makes the player angry to have to got through all the hoopla only to find out they have somehow broken some convoluted T&C, and then casinos wonder why the player gets defensive...

 

[vinylweatherman]

"but should I come across anything that I am allowed to share that I feel would be beneficial for players to know too, rest assured I will."

'Allowed to share' pretty well sums up the conclusion that I myself have come to accept and I appreciate a rep finally saying it right out.
Thank you good thread.

This is where the myths stem from. Players wonder WHY something that should be "innocent" has to be kept secret. The logical conclusion is that there is obviously something to hide, and the matter is not as "innocent" as it seems at face value.

Take RTP - innocent enough. It's just a number, and like a rate of interest on a savings account, seems nothing to hide. The problem is that casinos DO seek to hide this number from players. Some refuse to even publish ACTUAL payout statistics, so they have something else to hide.

When something like this is kept secret, and many other questions are met with "not allowed to say", it has players looking for something dodgy.

How come even the LAW is secret? This is a completely ridiculous concept


Our Energy companies are regulated, but not only can customers see what regulations the companies have imposed on them, the companies themselves even have to send us leaflets to explain these regulations to us, and what has to happen when they are breached. How come this is such a problem for online casinos that we are supposed to trust with far larger sums of our money.?

 

[Nifty29]

I'm not sure we are being 100% fair to the OP here.

When the rep said "but should I come across anything that I am allowed to share that I feel would be beneficial for players to know too, rest assured I will", I think he was referring to anything relating to the player experience that was not commercially sensitive.

Anyone who has worked for any kind of reasonably-sized business will know that there are some aspects of the business that are commercially sensitive. One cannot expect any casino rep to come to CM and post anything and everything specific to their employer - it is totally unrealistic and unreasonable.

Also, just because something is commercially sensitive, doesn't mean that it is something underhanded or dishonest. It doesn't mean that just because a rep won't answer a specific question they are trying to cover up some huge conspiracy to rip players off.

Think of yourself as a casino owner for a moment (if you can). Would you want everyone knowing exactly how you get your funding for instance? Or exactly how you group players according to 'value'? Or how exactly the entire backend software operates complete with screenshots and demonstration video? Of course not. Why? It is commercially sensitive. No casino in the world, online or B&M, regulated or not, will allow you just to maisey on in and demand to see everything that goes on behind the scenes just to satisfy yourself that you are getting a fair game. Yes, they do it for the regulators, but then you have to ask the question - do you trust the regulators? I'm sure there would be ample incentive to look the other way from time to time, and no government wants a casino to close down believe me.

In the end it really comes down to trust at one point or another.

Personally, I would put more trust in a casino who encourages it's reps to come here and post as openly as possible and answer any questions they are able to, as opposed to a casino who avoids the membership at every opportunity and has a 'talk to the hand' attitude.

I would hate to see someone like plexrep stop posting due to some members' conspiracy theories and those who insist that every casino rep is deliberately hiding the truth, or knowingly feeding us a pack of lies.

I know if I were the OP and read some of these posts, I would probably just think "I'm wasting my time" and go somewhere else where things I say aren't treated with suspicion.

P.S. Comparing entities like utility companies to casinos isn't even in the same ballpark. When is the last time a leaflet was sent around to everyone, or handed to every customer when they walked in, by a casino informing everyone of a change and what everyone can expect etc.

 

[Da_Gambla]

Our Energy companies are regulated, but not only can customers see what regulations the companies have imposed on them, the companies themselves even have to send us leaflets to explain these regulations to us, and what has to happen when they are breached. How come this is such a problem for online casinos that we are supposed to trust with far larger sums of our money.?

I totally agree with that in spirit, but the comparison doesn't really apply. Public utilities are generally monopolies within their service areas and the service is usually life sustaining.

I would love to see the same numbers you would, but that likely won't happen unless a group of them starts doing it to attract business, and the business comes their way. At that point, the others will decide very quickly whether to pony up the same stats. This industry has proven that, as far as things that concern player trust, they generally won't do anything unless forced to, and there's not much forcing going on. It's still fairly 'Wild West' out there.

- Keith

 

[PlexRep]

he was referring to anything relating to the player experience that was not commercially sensitive.

Thanks Nifty. You're bang on with regards commercially sensitive material, and there are also NDA's (non disclosure agreements to those unfamiliar) to consider. As I mentioned before I've not really dealt with that aspect of the business directly before, but since this thread took a turn in the direction of RTP's and payout percentages I've fired off a few mails to find out what I can in fact share. I shall keep you all posted as I go.

I would hate to see someone like plexrep stop posting due to some members' conspiracy theories and those who insist that every casino rep is deliberately hiding the truth, or knowingly feeding us a pack of lies.

Thanks for the support. I fully understand why some people would remain wary of both me and the industry in general. It's an expected and understandable response considering the 95 odd casinos currently rogued here at CM. You (and it would seem the majority of posters) see the benefit of a rep with at least some of the answers though, so fear not as I plan on sticking around.

 

[Seventh777]

Just a few questions for Plexie......

Let us cast aside the actual RTP aspect and look at the revenue needed to stay afloat side of things, every business needs a certain amount of cash per month to cover overheads, wages, marketing, insurances, licences /certificates, taxes, and much more, and lastly but no means least - a profit, in my business (building and renovating), which is a highly competitive market our target is 20% profit after the costs have been met, this figure is pretty much the norm with a high percentage of similar companies using the same procedures and price guildelines regarding labour and materials, you don`t want to price yourself out of work nor cut your own throat either, a lot of tradesman however are seasonal and a majority of their work is outside, so it`s a fair bet that out of every 12 months they will lose 6-8 weeks due to inclement weather, this lost time will be covered in their overall wages per annum forecast, and adjusted to suit.

So where is all this going you may ask, well here are my questions... As we all know there is a global recession (not to gloomy in the good old UK it seems as the GBP is a very strong currency atm), so, as like any other business what happens to the average casino when the monthly outlays are higher than the monthly incomings?, how will a certain RTP % threshold, balance the books?, the rogue casinos ofc cover this aspect by not paying out, so how do the accredited casinos cope with an adverse trading market, surely it would be in their interest and ofc their own survival to keep their heads above water, the only way that is available, and that is to reduce payouts to match the income and thus keeping afloat.

Now if this is the case, and tbh we all completely understand it, would it be deemed acceptable behaviour by the customers? and at the same time making our beloved and highly respected casinos look nothing more than those we despise in the rogue pit, basically a catch 22 situation, but one, I feel has to be kept under wraps due to the adverse knock on affects it would yield.

Ofc I could be completely wrong here and put my last 6 -12 months of very poor wagering, features, win streak high end balances a lot lower, notably fewer loyalty points redemptions, even though my deposits were roughly the same, and the one aspect the hits me slap in the face is the huge reduction in screenshots taken from roughly July-August (again no significant change in my overall betting patterns to have warranted this), of awesome hits etc, to a bad run of luck.

Now, I can probably state that I speak for many of us that have also experienced all of the above over the past year, if, as is the case with any business that runs purely on cash, money starts becoming tighter, people tighten the belts, incomes rapidly drop, measures have to be taken, do our local landlords start watering down the beer or raise their prices?, we are all man/woman enough to acknowledge hard times call for hard measures, but, we don`t (and i`m no way accusing you of anything underhand here) like the PTB pissing down our backs and telling us it`s raining .

 

[vinylweatherman]

I'm not sure we are being 100% fair to the OP here.

When the rep said "but should I come across anything that I am allowed to share that I feel would be beneficial for players to know too, rest assured I will", I think he was referring to anything relating to the player experience that was not commercially sensitive.

Anyone who has worked for any kind of reasonably-sized business will know that there are some aspects of the business that are commercially sensitive. One cannot expect any casino rep to come to CM and post anything and everything specific to their employer - it is totally unrealistic and unreasonable.

Also, just because something is commercially sensitive, doesn't mean that it is something underhanded or dishonest. It doesn't mean that just because a rep won't answer a specific question they are trying to cover up some huge conspiracy to rip players off.

Think of yourself as a casino owner for a moment (if you can). Would you want everyone knowing exactly how you get your funding for instance? Or exactly how you group players according to 'value'? Or how exactly the entire backend software operates complete with screenshots and demonstration video? Of course not. Why? It is commercially sensitive. No casino in the world, online or B&M, regulated or not, will allow you just to maisey on in and demand to see everything that goes on behind the scenes just to satisfy yourself that you are getting a fair game. Yes, they do it for the regulators, but then you have to ask the question - do you trust the regulators? I'm sure there would be ample incentive to look the other way from time to time, and no government wants a casino to close down believe me.

In the end it really comes down to trust at one point or another.

Personally, I would put more trust in a casino who encourages it's reps to come here and post as openly as possible and answer any questions they are able to, as opposed to a casino who avoids the membership at every opportunity and has a 'talk to the hand' attitude.

I would hate to see someone like plexrep stop posting due to some members' conspiracy theories and those who insist that every casino rep is deliberately hiding the truth, or knowingly feeding us a pack of lies.

I know if I were the OP and read some of these posts, I would probably just think "I'm wasting my time" and go somewhere else where things I say aren't treated with suspicion.

P.S. Comparing entities like utility companies to casinos isn't even in the same ballpark. When is the last time a leaflet was sent around to everyone, or handed to every customer when they walked in, by a casino informing everyone of a change and what everyone can expect etc.

Unfortunately, "commercially sensitive" is as misused as "technical issues". Both are used to avoid telling the truth, rather than because something is REALLY so sensitive that letting competitors know would undermine the business.

Why is THE LAW ITSELF considered "commercially sensitive". Surely EVERYBODY affected by a law has a right to know what this law says.

Why also is RTP considered "commercially sensitive" when any competitor who was REALLY that interested could simply calculate it (or get a near approximation) from the game layout. The same goes for reelstrips, they can also be analysed simply by playing the game and slowly building up a picture.

These cases when claimed to be "commercially sensitive" is just a load of BS, since it is information that can easily be found out through analysis.

Maybe algorithms to categorise players ARE commercially sensitive in the sense that the better they are, the more effectively the casino can keep the players it wants, and encourage them to spend at their casino, rather than the competition. The problem comes when PLAYERS see proof that they have suddenly been classed as "second class", and the casino lies to them by saying that EVERYBODY is being treated the same in order to hide the fact that they even HAVE such a procedure in place. This causes the secrecy to backfire, and fuels speculation that something "dodgy" is going on. Far from protecting the business, this can DAMAGE it.

Non Disclosure Agreements are when one company tells another that they cannot pass on some of the information pertaining to the product. These are often excessive, and force quite innocent information to be kept secret, along with anything that is REALLY going to help a competitor.

Every now & then, an operator gets caught out CHEATING, and ONLY gets caught because they accidentally let slip some "commercially sensitive" information. This has shown players that CHEATING is considered "commercially sensitive", rather than just plain wrong, by a few operators. Since no-one knows just WHO is cheating until they are found out, EVERY operator faces suspicion when something happens that doesn't seem right.

Players build a mental model of how online casinos work, and it is when they experience something that contradicts this model that they start asking questions. If they then get "can't say" as an answer, rather than an explanation that allows them to modify their mental model to allow for what they have experienced, and reconcile it with "fairness", they will start to wonder whether there is cheating behind what they have experienced.

 

[LinkinFart]

Was this commercially sensitive too?

Just a few quotes from thread at other forum, this is about showing members of a forum how everything works in online casino through webcast, operator in question was RTG:

August 05, 2009. 09:44:38 AM CASINO REP: "Great ! i was thinking all the lines of what the software does, how it works, how slots payouts are calculated, and of course, me! Anything else?"

August 05, 2009. 11:44:13 AM FORUM MEMBER(which was lucky enough to see preview):
"...i just sat through on a preview tour of what Casinojack has in mind and I think everyone is going to really enjoy this. It is informative and gives you better understanding, not only on what happens when you hit that spin/deal/draw button, but on how the actual games get configured, why some machines hit better than others at different times and different bets and a variety of other aspects pf game play."

August 05, 2009. 03:05:40 PM FORUM MEMBER(Same that saw preveiew):
Well folks,
Looks like the plug got pulled on this. RTG itself contacted Casino 33 and informed them that they could not do this webfeed, after receiving complaints from some of the other casinos.
So as of right now, the planned showing is canceled.

Here is the link to that thread:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Casinomeister]

...As regards Malta authority being a joke...mmmm...do not agree. The Malta LGA has considerably tightened up the last 2 years, difficult now for companies to even get a Letter of Intent before a full license is given...

Their infrastructure may be good, but their player relations people are clueless. What good is a license if you can't deal with player issues? Might as well have a license to sell shoes.

Could you be more specific with us here which reason mentioned above by Bryan is preventing your casino from being on the accredited list after 8 years of existence?..

It could be the outsourced support. I'm pretty sure that's what it was.

 

[felicie]

This is where the myths stem from. Players wonder WHY something that should be "innocent" has to be kept secret. The logical conclusion is that there is obviously something to hide, and the matter is not as "innocent" as it seems at face value.

Take RTP - innocent enough. It's just a number, and like a rate of interest on a savings account, seems nothing to hide. The problem is that casinos DO seek to hide this number from players. Some refuse to even publish ACTUAL payout statistics, so they have something else to hide.

When something like this is kept secret, and many other questions are met with "not allowed to say", it has players looking for something dodgy.

How come even the LAW is secret? This is a completely ridiculous concept


Our Energy companies are regulated, but not only can customers see what regulations the companies have imposed on them, the companies themselves even have to send us leaflets to explain these regulations to us, and what has to happen when they are breached. How come this is such a problem for online casinos that we are supposed to trust with far larger sums of our money.?

I agree completely VWM, I just didn't say it right as usual. It IS a big pile of secrets and the loyalty given these casinos by their employees, past, present, pissed off or happy is the real mystery to me. However, it's their rules and until better regulation comes we can't do much about it. I was just glad to see a rep come out and say it straight out that they are not allowed to tell us certain information instead of ignoring our questions and then we never see them again. That's all


Here in So. Cal, our energy companys are a lot more transparent these days also and rates are lower, but it wasn't long ago that the PUC (Public Utilities Com.) and I were on a first name basis discussing our bill every other month and they even assigned a special electric guy to our house - one that wasn't scared of dogs. Or me. We get along really great now.

 

[PlexRep]

Just a few questions for Plexie......what happens to the average casino when the monthly outlays are higher than the monthly incomings?

RTP issues and any rogue activity aside for now, there are still plenty of ways a casino can pull things back or improve their bottom line. As you know this isn't quite my area but as always happy to provide my opinion. (If any other reps want to take a stab come on in, the water's fine )

From my perspective, if an operator wants to improve their profits or reduce losses it comes down to a few simple options. First up is obviously attracting new customers (while making sure your existing customers stick around of course). A well timed and executed promotion can also do wonders, but get it wrong and… well… anyone see the recent Betfair thread? Promotions and offers can all be adapted and this will also affect the margins. If the losses are more long term internal cuts may even be considered, but like anything this is a fine line. Cutting down on customer services staff for example might save you thousands every month, but if this leads to delayed responses customers may in turn also leave.

I will agree that the 'easiest' of all options is sadly to go rogue... but it's far from the only option and I would like to think is only looked at as a last resort.

Now lets get back to RTP again for a moment....

I'd be curious as to your level of knowledge/trust towards external testing or monitoring companies such as TST. (This is an open question... not just for seventh) . I'm sure some of you are already familiar with them and most of you will at least have seen the name around at some point. Here's a link for those who want to learn more:

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What they offer to do is come in to your casino and run checks, then provide an average RTP for each section based on their findings. You won’t get a breakdown by individual games, but at least an average per area (ie: average slots RTP, Table games RTP etc..)

An air of skepticism and mistrust still dominates this industry it seems, so my question is if we as operators pay TST to perform these tests and then openly share the information what would happen?

Would you trust the findings and take them at face value, or remain skeptical and assume they might be rigged numbers somehow? Would you start comparing the RTP findings for different casinos and make your decisions where to play based on them, despite the fact that your overall experience can still differ?

What is more important to you as players? Is it getting a 1% better rtp, faster withdrawals, better customer services, bigger and better bonuses? Maybe we need a new thread and a poll here....

Your feedback here will be brought back up the chain and may help me shape the way our own sites are run and presented, so don't be shy. Have a think about it and tell me how you feel the industry would change if every casino had the average RTP displayed (and I mean every one... even the rogues who may be less than honest...)

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[jetset]

Probably a combination of all of those factors

There must be a corporate reason why so many large online gambling groups do not appear enthusiastic about showing RTP, and there can be a lot of speculation about what that might be.

One of the most frequent reservations expressed about RNG testing such as that performed by TST (which is now part of GLI, I think) is that it represents a snapshot in time rather than an ongoing and continuously monitored dynamic result. That's an interesting discussion all by itself.

It perhaps demonstrates a desire on the part of the operator to ensure RNG fairness (and more cynically it's seen as a good marketing tool to reassure players as well)

My personal belief is that the display of RTP would probably not have the catastrophic consequences that some providers appear to fear. And there is value in the whole operational package presented to players if it is done consistently and professionally.

Stand by to get a regurgitation of the RTG variable RTP debate here btw!

 

[Da_Gambla]

This being a predominantly player based forum, there is a LOT of ingrained skepticism when it comes to RTP. As Jetset pointed out, snapshots of RTP aren't going to do much for people who are 100% sure there is a conspiracy when no one is 'looking' in an ongoing manner.

There is an interesting phenomenon that has developed over the last many years. It used to be that if you had a gripe with a casino, you could post just about anything concerning their fairness, and since the industry did have so many roguish operators, it didn't take much convincing to start a riot. Mind you, these weren't people with PAB issues by and large, they were just people who lost, gambling. There are always a few PAB cases per year that end up going against the player, and there are typically 2 types - either the player was doing something clearly fraudulent, or they just didn't understand the T&C's or ask questions where their play might be borderline. The fact that these cases get resolved to the casino's side doesn't really matter, as by that time the resolution and proof is posted, the thread is full of tons of misinformation and some flat out lies.

Now moving to the forward, there are many operators who have brought their standards way up, but are still subject to whatever conspiracies a losing player wants to throw out there, either discreetly or not so much. One thing that hasn't changed much is that players by and large will back each other's complaints, without asking or needing any proof, because "all casinos are crooked or suspicious". Someone can post "I lost x number of deposits in a row" and no one will ask them for proof of the actual number of deposits they are claiming, the actual amounts of those deposits, or how that money was actually wagered through for the losses. We're just to assume that casino "ripped them off".

Would a published RTP do anything there? I would say, likely not. A player convinced they were swindled will never stop trying to tell their story as a 'veiled' warning to others.

If I thought a significant portion of casinos, that were either accredited here or had no apparent roguish behaviour, were capable and willing to rip me off, I would STOP playing entirely, but that's just me. I'm lucky and have Vegas as a neighbour, and therefore a backup.

So, as Jetset pointed out, spot checking doesn't solve the conspiracy theory that casinos will alter their software after it's been checked, or alter it for just certain players. If ongoing checks are made, then new conspiracies will be brought that the monitoring companies are being paid to look the other way, etc etc..

I believe, for a fact, that there is some truth in some of the posted conspiracies, and I do believe that certain casinos might alter their games. I believe those things, because I'm human and subject to the same emotional reactions as anyone else to things I read and experience. I still deposit and play because gambling is a side-event in my life, and if these conspiracies exist, it doesn't really affect me in a profound 'got to get to the bottom of this' way. I clearly understand I cannot force these businesses to reveal anything to me on my immediate demand. Therefore, I consider every deposit by me to be a completely voluntary action that I will take responsibility for.

Published RTP, and even more so, ongoing monitoring, would encourage a player like me to fan out and experience more. As it stands, once you have a few favourites that you trust, you stand pat. The first group of casinos to stand up and embrace anything new like this will get the first customers. I'll be one of them.

Best,
- Keith

 

[4 of a kind]

PlexRep Quote:

An air of skepticism and mistrust still dominates this industry it seems, so my question is if we as operators pay TST to perform these tests and then openly share the information what would happen?

This is the crux of the whole problem with online gaming mistrust. Firstly, what online casino would selectively choose a company and then voluntarily pay for testing and then post for all to see any negative or unappealing results? Maybe they would follow up with a disclaimer like this: “our rtp’s may be the worst around but if you’re lucky enough to win, we’ll pay you in less then 24 hours”. How is it you expect anyone to take serious, testing results from a chosen outside company that is being paid voluntarily from the ones being tested? I for one need a little more then that to be convinced when billions of dollars are being profited. It’s obvious to most that online gaming after a decade has proven they are operating in a lawlessness environment.

This is a quote from the TST home page:

"Compliance testing ensures that iGaming systems operate in a manner consistent with prevailing regulatory policies of the jurisdiction from which the gaming systems are hosted".

It seems that the testers and the tested all seem to share this alleged “regulatory policies”. Why isn’t this information with online gaming shared with anyone that asks like land based regulatory agencies always still do? I e-mailed and snail mailed written requests to several online regulators, requesting online gaming regulations in their jurisdictions, and a year later I still don’t know if they even received any of them.

When I’m in Vegas or anywhere in Nevada, I already know what all the regulatory policies are, along with the average RTP for whichever casino I decide to visit, and where to go if I felt cheated. I could contact the “Nevada Gaming Control Board” where my complaint would be heard and regulations would be checked confirming one way or the other the actual results. If a casino was found guilty of not abiding by the rules, I could expect a full refund and know serious consequences, be it fines, warnings, or licenses being revoked will be implied.

Online gamers could care less what the average RTP for any casino may be for a chosen month or a quarter, let alone any test being performed when and if the operator damn well pleases. Then to top it off online casinos expect us to take serious these alleged RTP settings being provided by a chosen testing facility being paid by the casino and then be willing to advertise these RTP’s as serious results.

Sorry, but without regulations with proven serious consequences and regulators doing consistent random on site testing and their results always being made public like this chart for land based casinos: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/b-m-payouts.36710/ there is just no way any person could take what any online casino is willing to say serious when it comes to RTP’s.

Even the RTP chart I pointed out above for land based casinos is not in real time. Whatever the average RTP settings are in that chart are from the past confirmed playing history. We know just by asking that Vegas, and Atlantic City casinos can operate machines with a minimum of 84% RTP’s. We know they can’t change any RTP on any machine unless it hasn’t been played for at least 4 minutes. We also know that the gaming commission must be notified and witness any changes. We also know there will be monthly regulatory monitoring and that each different size coin denomination machine is averaged independently then together for a total RTP rating. This doesn’t mean because that chart says that $5.00 dollar machines average RTP setting for this period in a certain casino were 94% that a player couldn’t find himself sitting at one paying only 84%. But if a land based casino wants to stay competitive they’ll make sure they look good on that factual chart. A good land based player would follow that chart and based on an average and the size machine that fits him or her best decide where they think they could get the best game for their bankroll.

Today if I have a problem or felt cheated while playing at an online casino where could I go? Bryan or Max and pitch a bitch? Just the name alone “PAB” should tell you how ridicules this whole online gaming crap actually evolved into. Yes, I agree its better then absolutely nothing, but it’s nothing more then an arbitrator if lucky enough to even have communications with the casino in the first place, making decisions based on home grown T&C’s. Never once in any PAB settled, be it good or bad for the player was a decision based on actual gaming regulations. I know PAB recovers mid 6 digit numbers annually, but this number is a joke when compared to the billions being stolen. I would also like to see the numbers when PAB was in favor of the players and never were able to recover anything for the players.

Please don’t take the above comments as anything against Bryan or Max. I realize their time and efforts should not be taken lightly, and they are in fact here trying to help the wronged. It’s just sad and pathetic that this is all the players have of even the slightest hopes of any realistic fairness.

Can someone direct me to a forum like CM loaded with endless complaints of unfairness and money literally being stolen right out of the player’s hands about B&M’s that operate in real jurisdictions like Vegas, and New Jersey? I think not, instead you will find sites like the wizard of odds that discusses endlessly the best strategies available for the players giving them the best bang and hopes for their bucks. Forgetting about the MIT card counting teams, and other obvious cheating players in these land based casinos that got caught, have you ever known of slot players winnings being confiscated and accused of collusion, banned, then robbed with other players for sharing playing strategies against a slot machine?

Online gaming early on had the opportunity to take this market to new limits; instead they made it what it is today. You could rest assured that many serious (financially sound) professional gamblers were all over online gaming early on and are all long gone now. Online casinos now base their business on luring new customers to them with ridicules bonuses, and taking advantage of the ill informed and rookie gambler. Of course their will always be the high roller online gambler lurking around. But this is usually a result of a person with a lot of money and a gambling problem, or is new to it and only a matter of time till he or she also vanishes.

I’m not sure how long it took to clean up Vegas after its early launch, but as long as online gaming could get away with whatever it is they want, be it good or bad, why would they want anything to do with transparency? Las Vegas was no different then online gaming when it first started. That was a big era for gangsters running casinos with rigged slot machines, professional card dealing sharks, loaded dice, magnetic roulette wheels etc... That all was cleaned up with regulation and enforcement that could be trusted, and now look at what land based casinos became where this regulation and enforcement exists.

I regret that my online gaming addiction kept me active for so much longer then when I realized I knew better. Before I'd even consider coming back I would need a lot more then what PlexRep is suggesting. At least he’s making some suggestions, regardless of their actual impact.

For the alleged (until further notice) good online gaming sites that are out there, and trying to do things right, maybe instead of being forced to waddle in the mud with the rest of the pigs and their reputations, should get together and try to do something about it from their end. It’s obvious after a decade that the players are not able to achieve this goal from their end.

 

[felicie]

Probably a combination of all of those factors

There must be a corporate reason why so many large online gambling groups do not appear enthusiastic about showing RTP, and there can be a lot of speculation about what that might be.

One of the most frequent reservations expressed about RNG testing such as that performed by TST (which is now part of GLI, I think) is that it represents a snapshot in time rather than an ongoing and continuously monitored dynamic result. That's an interesting discussion all by itself.

It perhaps demonstrates a desire on the part of the operator to ensure RNG fairness (and more cynically it's seen as a good marketing tool to reassure players as well)

My personal belief is that the display of RTP would probably not have the catastrophic consequences that some providers appear to fear. And there is value in the whole operational package presented to players if it is done consistently and professionally.

Stand by to get a regurgitation of the RTG variable RTP debate here btw!

Another debate would be good for me Jetset because one of these times I'm going to understand it all. Maybe.

 

[Da_Gambla]

[.. snip ..]When I’m in Vegas or anywhere in Nevada, I already know what all the regulatory policies are, along with the average RTP for whichever casino I decide to visit, and where to go if I felt cheated. I could contact the “Nevada Gaming Control Board” where my complaint would be heard and regulations would be checked confirming one way or the other the actual results. If a casino was found guilty of not abiding by the rules, I could expect a full refund and know serious consequences, be it fines, warnings, or licenses being revoked will be implied.

[.. snip ..]

I’m not sure how long it took to clean up Vegas after its early launch, but as long as online gaming could get away with whatever it is they want, be it good or bad, why would they want anything to do with transparency? Las Vegas was no different then online gaming when it first started. That was a big era for gangsters running casinos with rigged slot machines, professional card dealing sharks, loaded dice, magnetic roulette wheels etc... That all was cleaned up with regulation and enforcement that could be trusted, and now look at what land based casinos became where this regulation and enforcement exists.

This was an example where business won out over lawlessness, and this is rare for that type of 'cash' industry. The majority of businesses that wanted to be legitimate had to fight this for many many years, but they ultimately proved that the superior long-term goal was valid. They literally saved that entire city.

Please note that the gamers traveling to Vegas had extremely little impact on Nevada Gaming. It was the million and billionaires who were fine with being transparent in exchange for more legitimate business. We won't see this in internet casinos until they decide they want legitimate business. Our screaming and yelling will always yield very small impact until then, because as you pointed out, there are too many addicted gamblers and newcomers not aware of the trap they are entering. Those 2 entities will cause untold more years to this process. It will take ONE casino owner to start that snowball rolling, and then it will be even more years after that before it becomes the norm.

So Nevada Gaming can control Nevada games. Who can control international gaming, especially since international government entities cannot even figure out how to get some money from all of this, much less regulate it. You can lock down business in a CITY, but a globe? That's big. Really big.

- Keith