Resolved 32Red vs Joseph3 - expensive mistake

[mimi26]

I haven't decided to do this 'PAB' though.
Obviously I have heard of Casinomeister on TV etc, and I have scanned through the forums over the years, but I am confused about this PAB service.
I'm looking at all these casino banners and thinking there's an obvious conflict of interest here.

I thought the forum was a discussion on fair play, which is what I am doing. But you are right, I suppose I do have an agenda to get my money back, so this will be my last post.

Please read the rules regarding the PAB process and submit one, there is no conflict of interest, go and read up on all the successful ones, this is a free service please use it you would be stupid not to!!,

 

[maphesto]

I haven't decided to do this 'PAB' though.

If you come here to this forum with your very interesting story and decide to not use the free service many members will only see your post as a meaningless rant.

Please, do that PAB!

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have had 200% boni from 32Red in the past, but they are pretty rare. The Club Rouge birthday bonus is now 200% (£250 for £500 bonus), when it used to be 100% (£500 for £500). It's also the norm for 32Red to "eat" their own mistakes, yet they are apparently willing to burn a reputation built up for over a decade over a mere £25K.

The emails shown by the OP do seem to back up the claim that there isn't really any more to this than some CS rep cocking up in crediting a 200% bonus instead of a 100%. We know from experience that when a CS rep gets it wrong, and is challenged by a player, they can often defend their wrong decision by saying things like (I work here, I know my job, what you got is correct, etc)

However, 32Red have already been changing focus away from players and towards the profit motive. They have stopped weekend payments in the face of discontent amongst players, and used a BS reason for doing so. They then removed "auto flush" from their system so they don't even have next day payment by default any longer, players now have to email CS to get their withdrawal "flushed".

There is a down side to jumping straight to court action though. The case for the OP would be stronger if they had pursued all possible avenues between an internal complaint and court action. At the minimum, a complaint through eCogra and/or a PAB here should be tried first, with action being taken in the courts only if a mutual settlement could not be agreed. The OP has already made his initial offer, in that he will allow the incorrectly credited £1000 to be deducted from the value of the claim.

With the new UK regulations imminent, this could be an interesting case if it is judged by a UK body, such as the court or the UKGC (assuming 32Red now has it's continuation licence, and the process of issuing the formal licence is under way).

The bolded term also works in the player's favour, as if the casino can indeed change the terms "at any time", it could be interpreted to mean that they changed the big bankroll bonus to 200% "at any time", and so far from being a mistake, being given 200% was consistent with this term.

Lastly, if such amounts are "never given", how come front line CS didn't find themselves locked out from doing this at their console. There are many instances of players contacting CS, who agree that the player is in the right, but that the player will have to wait till "office hours" because the agent doesn't have the required permissions to apply the agreed resolution at their console.

I would also expect the CS supervisor to get a right bollocking for making the initial mistake that created this mess in the first place. It would have been better to have paid up, and then dealt with the CS department internally. There would have been every chance of winning the money back off the OP given that choices have been squeezed by the new UK rules, and it would have made for some good PR from the story that a UK player had to move to 32Red from a casino that shoved them out the door because of the UK changes, and the first experience was being treated like a king, and then winning £25K and getting paid within a couple of days.

 

[xxshepxx]

It is Joseph,

Have faith, they are impartial, it's their job to be so.

Get your PAB in and let the guys at it.

 

[nikantw]

I haven't decided to do this 'PAB' though.
Obviously I have heard of Casinomeister on TV etc, and I have scanned through the forums over the years, but I am confused about this PAB service.
I'm looking at all these casino banners and thinking there's an obvious conflict of interest here.

I thought the forum was a discussion on fair play, which is what I am doing. But you are right, I suppose I do have an agenda to get my money back, so this will be my last post.

No need to reply to this, please do the BAB.
If you have done your homwork, you know you are in the right place.
If you are legit, hurting the casino reputation without proof (it is impossible to provide hard evidence in the forum) doesn't help you.
Only makes you look bad. Are you legit? Steps are: Find the rep, do the PAB, post the results (if you need). Did you even bother to read the rules for this forum? For the PAB?

That said, "balance dropped down 1000" doesn't mean a thing. Nobody bets the same if he has 2100, 1100, or 100 (mabe one or two ).

 

[Casinomeister]

Again, another example of how not to post a complaint in the forum. At first, the member states that he is collecting opinions before he takes 32Red to court.

This seems to be the biggest casino forum so I'd like a few responses from some members please before I proceed with my court action against 32Red Plc in the UK.

Right then and there he pretty much forfeited any chance for 32Red to respond in the forum. They've already informed me that they have received the same message from the player. Once lawyers and a proper court is involved, then it goes beyond the scope of a PAB.

Most importantly is that the player has withheld the fact that the casino has made a generous offer to the player - before he began posting - I wonder why he hasn't mentioned this?

He has also made it clear that he will not submit his complaint to any of the formal associations because they are "in the casino's pocket"

• Gibraltar Gambling Commissioner
• eCOGRA
• IBAS

Submitting complaints to these entities is free. The player has nothing to lose but the minutes it take to fill out the forms. Why care if you think they are in the "pocket of the casinos" - you should entertain that claim only when you've finished using their services. So what do you have to lose? Nothing but time.

So according to the player, the way to go here is precisely this:

Maybe mob justice can make 32Red see sense before I proceed with court action.

Since when is mob justice ever a good thing?

I can guarantee it will not happen here.

 

[catapultaudio]

Are you saying that you will not be able to proceed with a PAB in this case then Casinomeister? Thing is, with 32red being so heavily regarded here, I don't think it would look good on yourselves not to take up what seems to be a somewhat legitimate complaint against them... you don't want to fuel peoples speculations that you are biased towards the casinos or on anyones payroll, no matter how ridiculous those allegations might seem to most of us.

With respect to their offer, I have to say, no matter how 'generous' 32red may feel they are being, if you believe you are owed legitimately £24,000, an offer of half - for example - would not seem generous to me... sure its a lot of money, but I've been robbed of similar amounts of cash in the past by companies whom I worked for that then decided I was not being paid the agreed amount unless I did additional work or steps not included in the original contract, and when that reached the stage of proceeding to court, they made a "generous" offer of 60percent of the agreed rate... considering it was over 18 months past due, it would have to have been nearer to 160percent for me to consider it generous.

I still can't form a full opinion on this one way or another from the information given - the live chat where the bonus was given would seem to be key, though 32reds emails to indicate that the terms and conditions link was given at the time the bonus was granted, I expect somebody depositing £1,000 would have read these, therefore, to say that the bonus was inside normal boundaries when you have read specific t and c stating different is perhaps dishonest.. nevertheless, the rest of the chat could tell a different story. If the CS rep actually stated "We have a fantastic 200percent bonus to offer you!" then the rest of the details are moot surely...?

I hope we will get to learn the outcome of this one, thats for sure.

 

[Joseph3]

Right then and there he pretty much forfeited any chance for 32Red to respond in the forum. They've already informed me that they have received the same message from the player. Once lawyers and a proper court is involved, then it goes beyond the scope of a PAB.

Most importantly here is that the player has withheld the fact that the casino has made a generous offer to the player - before he began posting - I wonder why he hasn't mentioned this?

There's no hidden agenda with regards to me leaving this out (to what end?), the simple fact is the offer is far from generous so I didn't see the relevance, and I missed out their latest email by mistake in my post. They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.

He has also made it clear that he will not submit his complaint to any of the formal associations because they are "in the casino's pocket"

• Gibraltar Gambling Commissioner
• eCOGRA
• IBAS

Submitting complaints to these entities is free. The player has nothing to lose but the minutes it take to fill out the forms. Why care if you think they are in the "pocket of the casinos" - you should entertain that claim when you're finished using their services. So what do you have to lose? Nothing but time.

So according to the player, the way to go here is precisely this:

Those bodies are funded by the casinos. How can I ask for an independent inquiry when there is a clear conflict of interest? Why else would I not want to go through them? They are not going to give any additional information to this case that I am afraid of. I'd much rather use an impartial judge, thanks.

Since when is mob justice ever a good thing?

I can guarantee it will not happen here.

Ok maybe that was a poor off the cuff remark. A better way of saying it would be; I'd like 32Red to see that their own players agree they are not advocating fair play with their position, and hopefully this will make them change their mind.

 

[spoton]

Thinking that Bryan and/or Max are on the casinos side is just stupid. If they were, then they wouldn't have have such a big rogue and not recommended list as they have. CM has even stood up against Betfair...

But if the OP really wants a gamble why not take it to the court, you might get the full pot, maybey half, or maybey you have to cover 30 000 or more in lawyers fees. Quite a bit more risky, but that whats gambling is about I guess..

 

[SpinUk]

I have had 200% boni from 32Red in the past, but they are pretty rare. The Club Rouge birthday bonus is now 200% (£250 for £500 bonus), when it used to be 100% (£500 for £500). It's also the norm for 32Red to "eat" their own mistakes, yet they are apparently willing to burn a reputation built up for over a decade over a mere £25K.

The emails shown by the OP do seem to back up the claim that there isn't really any more to this than some CS rep cocking up in crediting a 200% bonus instead of a 100%. We know from experience that when a CS rep gets it wrong, and is challenged by a player, they can often defend their wrong decision by saying things like (I work here, I know my job, what you got is correct, etc)

However, 32Red have already been changing focus away from players and towards the profit motive. They have stopped weekend payments in the face of discontent amongst players, and used a BS reason for doing so. They then removed "auto flush" from their system so they don't even have next day payment by default any longer, players now have to email CS to get their withdrawal "flushed".

There is a down side to jumping straight to court action though. The case for the OP would be stronger if they had pursued all possible avenues between an internal complaint and court action. At the minimum, a complaint through eCogra and/or a PAB here should be tried first, with action being taken in the courts only if a mutual settlement could not be agreed. The OP has already made his initial offer, in that he will allow the incorrectly credited £1000 to be deducted from the value of the claim.

With the new UK regulations imminent, this could be an interesting case if it is judged by a UK body, such as the court or the UKGC (assuming 32Red now has it's continuation licence, and the process of issuing the formal licence is under way).

The bolded term also works in the player's favour, as if the casino can indeed change the terms "at any time", it could be interpreted to mean that they changed the big bankroll bonus to 200% "at any time", and so far from being a mistake, being given 200% was consistent with this term.

Lastly, if such amounts are "never given", how come front line CS didn't find themselves locked out from doing this at their console. There are many instances of players contacting CS, who agree that the player is in the right, but that the player will have to wait till "office hours" because the agent doesn't have the required permissions to apply the agreed resolution at their console.

I would also expect the CS supervisor to get a right bollocking for making the initial mistake that created this mess in the first place. It would have been better to have paid up, and then dealt with the CS department internally. There would have been every chance of winning the money back off the OP given that choices have been squeezed by the new UK rules, and it would have made for some good PR from the story that a UK player had to move to 32Red from a casino that shoved them out the door because of the UK changes, and the first experience was being treated like a king, and then winning £25K and getting paid within a couple of days.

Great post. Fortunately the days of "the casinos decision is final" are coming to an end with the new regulation, as well as other areas where a lot of Casinos are probably more than happy to keep the status quo, such as their tax affairs and more importantly lack of proper legal accountability. The decision of big player such as Digimedia to bypass the lucrative UK market to avoid such scrutiny does make you wonder what sort of ship these Casino's are running in the background.

The legal consortium (including 32red) currently challenging this new regulation wrote to the UK Secretary of State for Culture, Sajid Javid, a couple of months ago saying that the current regulation has worked for more than 15 years “without any serious consumer protection problems”.

This appears to be a sharp illustration of the polar opposite.

 

[kadcox]

There's no hidden agenda with regards to me leaving this out (to what end?), the simple fact is the offer is far from generous so I didn't see the relevance, and I missed out their latest email in my post. They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.




Those bodies are funded by the casinos. How can I ask for an independent inquiry when there is a clear conflict of interest? Why else would I not want to go through them? They are not going to give any additional information to this case that I am afraid of. I'd much rather use an impartial judge, thanks.



Ok maybe that was a poor off the cuff remark. A better way of saying it would be; I'd like 32Red to see that their own players agree they are not advocating fair play with their position, and hopefully this will make them change their mind.

You make valid points. It is kind of funny how those bodies are funded by the casinos, and one is asked to seek justice from them. If you feel the courts are a place to receive justice. By all means go for it. Its a lot of money. And you shouldn't risk losing it by having conflict of interests intervening...

 

[vorcirion]

There really is no reason why OP shouldn't do a PAB (unless he knows that he fucked up somehow and PAB won't be successful because of it). The best case scenario...you'll get your money that you won fairly (my opinion). The worst case scenario...you still have other options if your PAB isn't successful. But this kind of tactic where you try to harm 32Red's reputation as much as possible because you're angry or something isn't a good use of these forums.

 

[Googobucs]

· The maximum bonus that can be claimed for this particular Big Bankroll Bonus is 1,000 Chips as per Point 2 of the relevant Terms and Conditions (which can be seen here)


[/I]

If the above T & C are correct related to this bonus, then it's the players responsibility to know that. Someone making a deposit of $1000 does not mistakenly think they are entitled to more and know it;s a mistake right up front.

I recently had a casino give me over $120 extra on a weekly cash back bonus. I immediately knew this was a mistake and contacted live chat. They asked me not to play while they investigated what happened.
The next day, I received an e-mail thanking me for my honesty and telling me it was their mistake and I could keep the extra to play with.
If I knew a $100 mistake, I have no doubt you knew a $1000 mistake.
I hope you get stuck paying 32Reds courts costs for your dishonesty.

 

[gagamel]

There's no hidden agenda with regards to me leaving this out (to what end?), the simple fact is the offer is far from generous so I didn't see the relevance, and I missed out their latest email by mistake in my post. They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.


I would take that offer (no joke).

It gives you a chance to safe some of the 25000. Without this offer you have definately zero.

 

[kadcox]

If the above T & C are correct related to this bonus, then it's the players responsibility to know that. Someone making a deposit of $1000 does not mistakenly think they are entitled to more and know it;s a mistake right up front.

I recently had a casino give me over $120 extra on a weekly cash back bonus. I immediately knew this was a mistake and contacted live chat. They asked me not to play while they investigated what happened.
The next day, I received an e-mail thanking me for my honesty and telling me it was their mistake and I could keep the extra to play with.
If I knew a $100 mistake, I have no doubt you knew a $1000 mistake.
I hope you get stuck paying 32Reds courts costs for your dishonesty.

That doesn't mean anything. Casinos are always running bonuses specials that are different from the initial offer. The Casino FUGGED up. They know it and instead of doing the right thing. They are trying to make the customer pay for it. This in itself is Rogu"ISH" behavior. The OP shouldn't settle for anything less then his full payout. You eat your mistakes, learn from your mistakes, and don't let it happen again. 32red or not. The way they are handling this is WRONG WRONG WRONG!

 

[nikantw]

Those bodies are funded by the casinos. How can I ask for an independent inquiry when there is a clear conflict of interest?

Because they (the good ones) need them to exist and do theit job (clear the market from the bad ones and restore peoples trust)!

 

[JGslots]

Interesting Scenario. I agree this maybe shouldn't be discussed like this here. But from what I've read 32red need to pay in full. The OP should PAB ASaP

 

[rshkrn]

I'd say OP isn't without fault here...

Out of greed for extra playtime OP decided to quietly accept the 1000 $ (!!!!!!) bonus, with maybe an intention of blaming it on the CS rep if he did manage to clear the WR and win (which he did eventually)....like mentioned by so many if the OP had lost, he probably wouldn't have bothered CM with this

The mistake of the rep cannot be neglected either as we aren't talking about a small amount here, just the bonus amount for that one deposit is probably what the majority of us get in an entire year!!!

If OP has actually got a settlement offer from 32red, he should high-five his near dear ones and take it IMHO....

 

[syntynyt]

the simple fact is the offer is far from generous
They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.

i have to agree that is ridiculous. if all you said is real why in the world you don't PAB right NOW? the odds are in your favor.

 

[dunover]

OK, my two penn'orth.

The error lies with the casino initially. The terms (OP didn't read) are there to cover such cock-ups. It was obvious the bonus had been credited incorrectly so I ask why the OP did not go on live chat and question if it was OK to proceed?

On the other hand, I've often received a bonus amount different to what I'm used to and upon further investigation found that I have qualified for something else too, or the latest day's promo. It does happen.

The OP has tried to rouse the torch-and-pitchfork brigade, and unusually has been honest about this.
Fortunately accredited sites do not usually bow to that nonsense.

The OP is sounding hysterical to be honest, blustering about courts etc. Now I can forgive that given the large win he has had, I would be mightily stressed too. Even Vinyl will advise that's not the way to go at present as he has to exhaust all other reasonable means.

The OP has been advised of a fair and neutral means of resolution, viz-a-viz the PAB process. 32red are a reasonable bunch and obviously after flatly refusing the player and then confiscating the lot, the matter has been subsequently passed up the ladder and as I understand it he has thus been offered the amount back but with a huge 750k WR.
This is clearly a massive EV- proposition to the player and will almost inevitably result in the player losing the 25k and therefore profiting 32red by his initial 1k deposit.
(Admittedly I would wet myself laughing if he attempted this WR which would take about 10 days playing 24/7 as 6.50 per spin and say cleared the WR and made a cashout of say 50k... )

I believe (yes, despite the player's hitherto banging and shouting) that he should receive something better than that. At least his deposit back and start again or w/d it. At most be allowed his whole cash-out but that is clearly more than even 32red's fairness and goodwill would stretch to. In the middle maybe half his cash-out? Not my decision or any of yours ultimately, but he has in part (assuming his story is 100% kosher which it seems to be now) been wronged by 32red's error and has been caused unreasonable stress by it which would never be 32red's intention to any new player.

OP - instead of blustering proceed with Max's offer of the PAB process. I'm sure you'll end up with some sort of compromise and be happier than you are now. It's neutral and relies on both parties being 100% honest. You'll certainly get it from 32red's side, they aren't used to PABs.

Hope you all sort it out!

 

[243 lines=daft]

In truth I can sympathise with the reluctance to run this past these mentioned gaming authorities if the op suspects they would side with the casino based on his own research.
For example my understanding is that ECogra was set up by Microgaming in the first place eleven years ago?
This is an example of why the relationships between these authorities and the casinos/software suppliers should be much more transparent than they are now.

BUT the thing that irks about this thread is the deliberate obfuscation by the OP.

It's one thing that he neglected to mention that 32 Red had made an offer in his original post.
But several posters (especially after the Luckydalia shambles of a few weeks ago) put him on the spot and asked in no uncertain terms
if he was quite sure he wasn't witholding crucial information.

He had no reason at that point to withold that detail other than to deliberately deceive.
Why is telling the bloomin' truth such a hard thing to do!?

 

[PCJACKPOT2008]

120 000 spins at £6.25 to clear WR is hardly worth mentioning in my book. Impossible to clear.

 

[mimi26]

OK I am a little worried if I am honest, this is so out of character for 32red, and I have all sorts running through my head now, stopping the weekend cashouts, the 24hr pending period, I really hope they are not in trouble It would be too much to bear if we lost a great casino like this, OK all speculation but the things happening lately do make one wonder.

Anyway if I am honest I think the casino should pay this out in FULL it was their error and should be rectified I just wish the OP would have handles this complaint better

 

[catapultaudio]

OK, my two penn'orth.

The error lies with the casino initially. The terms (OP didn't read) are there to cover such cock-ups. It was obvious the bonus had been credited incorrectly so I ask why the OP did not go on live chat and question if it was OK to proceed?

On the other hand, I've often received a bonus amount different to what I'm used to and upon further investigation found that I have qualified for something else too, or the latest day's promo. It does happen.

The OP has tried to rouse the torch-and-pitchfork brigade, and unusually has been honest about this.
Fortunately accredited sites do not usually bow to that nonsense.

The thing is we don't know if the players conversation with live chat included the line "we have credited your 200percent bonus, have fun" or similar, alongside the link to the terms and conditions, and without that chat log its difficult to know how realistic the OPs assertion he was unaware he was credited too much bonus might be. He might well have had no idea there was any need to contact live chat.

rshkn mentioned if the OP had lost his bonus, he probably would not have bothered CM with this - of course not, there would be no story to tell. But likewise, had the OP lost the entire deposit and bonus, I'm sure nothing would have happened on 32reds end too - you can bet your life they would not have returned his deposit or similar as a result of this error with his bonus. That being the case its difficult for me to have sympathy when it happens to go the other way - if he lost the money they would have quietly forgotten their mistake, yet if he wins, the best he is offered is to have the balance returned with a 30x wagering requirement.. its simply not okay for a casino to make a mistake which results in a situation where the player can only lose regardless of what happens.

Another thing, a crucial part of the case seems to be the fact that the players balance dropped below the £1,000 mark - the casino states that the player would have gone bust at this point, and the following play is therefore void. However, if the player did not have that additional money on their account at the time, it is possible/likely they would have changed their style of play - lower variance games, lower bets etc, long before reaching that point, in an attempt to avoid busting out. There is simply no way of guessing this kind of thing, but what I do know for sure is that it is definitely not fair to assume that the players actions would have been identical regardless of the extra £1,000 being on balance or not.

I like 32red, I have not played there as much the past few months as I used to, but this is the worst possible time IMO for them to be getting wrapped up in a situation like this. MANY MG casinos are closing their doors to UK players and 32red stand to pick up a whole bunch of those players, such as the OP, as a result. Lets face it, this is exactly the kind of player the casinos want - depositing the maximum for the biggest welcome bonus - but the OPs lack of tact so far is a major issue of course... it might be impossible now for a reasonable settlement to be reached outside the court room, amazing how much damage can be caused by a thread in well under 24 hours. Nevertheless I hope that I am wrong and with the help of CM and max, an agreement can be reached that leaves everybody happy.

 

[dunover]

OK I am a little worried if I am honest, this is so out of character for 32red, and I have all sorts running through my head now, stopping the weekend cashouts, the 24hr pending period, I really hope they are not in trouble It would be too much to bear if we lost a great casino like this, OK all speculation but the things happening lately do make one wonder.

Anyway if I am honest I think the casino should pay this out in FULL it was their error and should be rectified I just wish the OP would have handles this complaint better

No, they are NOT in trouble my friend! The matter was passed upstairs after the initial refusal to pay, and came back with the 25k-with-WR offer. A small admission of their part in the gaffe. I'm not sure the OP had the 25k-with-WR offer at the time he made the first post.

32red are simply doing the same as any other corporation, maximizing revenues and cutting costs wherever possible to eke out another % on the profit figures and dividends for the owners/shareholders. Companies are run by accountants, seldom strategists.

Catapult - this crossed my mind too, regarding the player changing stake/play when he neared bust-out. Unfortunately this will only ever be speculation; we can't prove a negative. What 32red state is fact - he dipped into the 'non-awarded' bonus to procure his winnings.