Labour MP's resign from the party

[colinsunderland]

"A total of 52,741 laws have been introduced in the UK as a result of EU legislation since 1990, according to the Legal business of Thomson Reuters, the world’s leading source of intelligent information for businesses and professionals."

I'm sure some of the laws are sensible or needed, but doesn't the sheer number make you pause for thought, they must invented a rule for eveything!

I think the bent bananas and cucumbers was a way of highlighting some of the lunacy coming out of brussels, "The regulation states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature." why its just food, its natural, they've got too much time on their hands and wasting valuable money thinking up this nonsense, I wonder how many man hours went into consultations and drafting all these laws.

many people use to read and rely on tabloid newspapers for their information pre the internet, and the EU bent bananas rule was one of the stories they told their readers about, hence everyone's heard of it, so when questioned it comes to mind.

whether these food rules are still in place after all the ridicule I don't know

theres a fairly good explanation here

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[mellody]

Me no like discussing politics here!! Way too serious, although I do understand it affects us all, so... these two links pretty much sum up my thoughts on the whole sorry brexit debacle. Just letting a bit of light in

 

[dunover]

Because otherwise perpetual war of every man against his neighbour would lead to anarchy Mr. Hobbes.

Then again, one could also argue, that security is a form of psychological illusion or delusion which will (eventually) be shattered. Perhaps I view security more as something which people think they can have some control over. But I disagree it being a natural desire. More like a learnt one imo. I most certainly disagree that existing among similar people is a natural desire.

A wise man once said, that one can increase their knowledge by augmenting the evidence of the senses through reason.

Alas Charles Darwin may disagree with you there. It's part of our instinct for survival and the alliances and actions we take to ensure it. Surely you can see that history bears this out? Take a look at these archaeological sites going back to the stone age and Iron Age as there's enough of them in the UK - these were all sited in closed, fenced defensive locations where the community could prosper and live without outside interference. I have seen stone age ones excavated in the Fens of Eastern England built on stilts in water and there's the Iron Age forts situated on top of hills with defensive ramparts. So regardless of politics, modern opinions and media commentators the proof as they say, is in the pudding sir.

 

[mac72]

Right but if someone says they hate the way the EU bring in stupid laws, and want to leave because of it, you would surely expect them to be able to quote at least one stupid law that they disagree with. Most say the bendy banana shite.

Don’t care which “stupid” ones shouldn’t have been implemented but I’ll be stuffed if I’ll pay 2 management teams to deal with it. We’ve paid for Westminster (people seem to forget they are in essence our employees) so why I or anyone else would need another tier of government just baffles me.
All this nonsense about trade agreements needing doctors from Pakistan etc etc what we will need we will negotiate and get and if we don’t/can’t that will simply be down to the fact our “team” sent to do it aren’t up to the job

 

[trancemonkey]

this is taken from a pro remain fact check website, as if politics was ever the realm of unadulterated truth, tons of which have sprung up:

"Not all EU decisions affecting the UK can be passed against its wishes. Some important issues can only be decided if every country voting agrees. [therefore some can]

These areas

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foreign affairs, taxation, justice and the EU budget. If the UK is adamantly opposed to a law requiring unanimous approval, it's unlikely to make it as far as a vote.

But in other areas, majorities are enough. Under the new system for majority voting, a law has to pass two hurdles.

First,

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member states have to vote for it. In special cases, it's

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.

The UK naturally counts for only 1/28th from this point of view."


But I agree in probably many instances the uk government chooses not to use its veto, but is it any wonder when the establishment is obsessed with obeying the EU and downgrading our own democracy, people had to fight to get democracy in this country, before the reform acts only the wealthy and landowners got to vote, the common man has effectively had the right to vote for 100 years [1918] that's it, probably the same across most of europe.

The EU have decided to go down the federalist route, [a system of government in which several states unite under a central authority] which obviously diminishes the effect and role of democracy in the individual countries. Some people currently see membership of the EU as basically like a benelovent dictatorship, but what will they be able to do if the laws become less benelovent and by that time the EU army is well established and other things possibly police forces etc... obviously this is a dystopian view of it but it becomes possible once the individual democratic influence of people is diminished.

A return to the EEC would be great... the EU has just over reached.

 

[trancemonkey]

So which laws have we had to adopt that you, or anyone else, disagree with?

This is something I ask a lot of leavers... And they can rarely answer. Another is how has the EU negatively impacted your life? Most of the time they can't give a reasonable answer without quoting immigration (which by all measurable data doesn't have a negative impact... it's a positive impact).

I think it's worth pointing out here that I didn't vote for Brexit, nor do I want it. But if it is going to happen, the negotiation (or lack of) has been a farce and we just need to get on and do it, go through the huge self induced economic mess, and hopefully come out the other side better off.

 

[colinsunderland]

This is something I ask a lot of leavers... And they can rarely answer. Another is how has the EU negatively impacted your life? Most of the time they can't give a reasonable answer without quoting immigration (which by all measurable data doesn't have a negative impact... it's a positive impact).

Exactly, just look at the responses in this thread so far (apart from mack who actually argues quite well )

 

[goatwack]

I think with the benefit of hindsight and a Marty McFly time-machine I think quite a few Leavers would have mulled over their vote more intensely. The PR spin machine really did a number on a lot of 'normal, intelligent' folk.

Who knew the whole thing would be bungled so spectacularly, the twits

 

[mac72]

This is something I ask a lot of leavers... And they can rarely answer. Another is how has the EU negatively impacted your life? Most of the time they can't give a reasonable answer without quoting immigration (which by all measurable data doesn't have a negative impact... it's a positive impact).

Not sure where you live trance but many in sheffield/burton on trent/derby (just the ones i know well) might disagree with you. The argument seems to always come down to "sure they put in more than they take out" but thats not the whole picture, the UK simply does not have the infrastructure to deal with whats been going on regardless if there is even a "gross profit" something which i'm not sure of. What i am sure of is if i have a b+b with 10 rooms that charges £50 a night its no good having 100 guests even if their willing to pay £75 the place will still end up in a mess. Controlled immigration based on merit absolutely no issue with but a very strong caveat that those coming here accept our way of life and integrate. Try going to China,UAE etc etc and imposing your way of life on them and see how far you get

 

[mac72]

Exactly, just look at the responses in this thread so far (apart from mack who actually argues quite well )

Any laws you want from the Eu if your not in the EU you can just copy and should have a UK government in place to implement them. But how is there even an argument?? It costs us year in year out to be part of this, there is no such thing as EU money/grants its OUR money that we pay over and they decide how to give us back minus a fee for doing so.That to me is the argument anyone who wants to tell me what benefit that fee gets us (that we couldn't/shouldn't be able to negotiate/demand) without being part of this club please say.
Go watch the latest edition of "The grand tour" Clarkson summed it up perfectly when he looked at how much infrastructure the chinese have put in place over the last few years "we're fucked in the UK" was i believe the way he put it and i couldn't agree more. We've turned into a nation more interested in if we can reclaim our PPI than actually wanting to get off our asses and get on with the job expecting everything to just come to us and too blind to see how its all slipping away

 

[SpinUk]

This is something I ask a lot of leavers... And they can rarely answer. Another is how has the EU negatively impacted your life? Most of the time they can't give a reasonable answer without quoting immigration (which by all measurable data doesn't have a negative impact... it's a positive impact).

I think it's worth pointing out here that I didn't vote for Brexit, nor do I want it. But if it is going to happen, the negotiation (or lack of) has been a farce and we just need to get on and do it, go through the huge self induced economic mess, and hopefully come out the other side better off.

The main way that the EU has affected everyone in this country in the last ten years is the zero increase in wage inflation.

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This is directly because of the cheap low skilled labour that has come from the eastern block and the depressed Mediterranean countries with youth unemployment of upto 40% (Spain, Italy). Public services like teachers also hit very hard - average salary for a science teacher in Poland around £1000 a month. Average nurse salary £600 pm. The incentive to emigrate must be high for young people when you can treble your salary. And so it is. But not so good for the training and investment for the host country workforce, and certainly not an incentive for employers to keep wages to match inflation when someone will gladly work for much less.

That is why huge swathes of the northeast voted unanimously for Brexit as the trades were the most affected and for the same reason the elite in London voted to remain as they had the highly skilled/senior and technical jobs that were not affected by the influx, yet enjoy the cheap service labour that this type of immigration offers. Hence the bias/fatuous virtue signalling of people that work in these areas.

Its also why big business like banks and multi-nationals also love the EU, as their main outgoing on their balance sheet is the labour force, so anything drastically lowering that figure is fantastic for them. Not so good for us.

All of this disregarding the rife corruption that is present at all levels of the EU, common to all continental politics, and the barely disguised contempt it holds the UK since inception, despite us remaining a hugely net contributor.

 

[vorcirion]

I don't understand these nationalist feelings. Like EU would take your culture/identity away or something. Or replace your government with their own power structures We used to have some kind of movement going on against EU here in Finland too. Scaring people with all those laws EU passed. Sure there are probably some ridiculous sounding ones...but I don't think it really affects normal people in any way. At least I haven't noticed! And I haven't noticed any kind of effect to finnish identity from EU.
During the crisis in Greece there were plenty of negative voices against the EU. How our money would be thrown away etc. Not hearing any of that anymore. I like that we help the countries in the EU and vice versa. There's power in unity.

And sorry brittish people but I like the way EU is treating you. You voted to leave and I want the EU to remain strong. We need to have a good position in any kind of negotiations, whether it's trade deals or now brexit or whatever comes next.

 

[steveh35]

I don't understand these nationalist feelings. Like EU would take your culture/identity away or something. Or replace your government with their own power structures We used to have some kind of movement going on against EU here in Finland too. Scaring people with all those laws EU passed. Sure there are probably some ridiculous sounding ones...but I don't think it really affects normal people in any way. At least I haven't noticed! And I haven't noticed any kind of effect to finnish identity from EU.
During the crisis in Greece there were plenty of negative voices against the EU. How our money would be thrown away etc. Not hearing any of that anymore. I like that we help the countries in the EU and vice versa. There's power in unity.

And sorry brittish people but I like the way EU is treating you. You voted to leave and I want the EU to remain strong. We need to have a good position in any kind of negotiations, whether it's trade deals or now brexit or whatever comes next.

Good grief a totally brainwashed eu fanatic best of luck in your club enjoy the ride just don't ever try to leave they don't like it

 

[mac72]

I don't understand these nationalist feelings. Like EU would take your culture/identity away or something. Or replace your government with their own power structures We used to have some kind of movement going on against EU here in Finland too. Scaring people with all those laws EU passed. Sure there are probably some ridiculous sounding ones...but I don't think it really affects normal people in any way. At least I haven't noticed! And I haven't noticed any kind of effect to finnish identity from EU.
During the crisis in Greece there were plenty of negative voices against the EU. How our money would be thrown away etc. Not hearing any of that anymore. I like that we help the countries in the EU and vice versa. There's power in unity.

And sorry brittish people but I like the way EU is treating you. You voted to leave and I want the EU to remain strong. We need to have a good position in any kind of negotiations, whether it's trade deals or now brexit or whatever comes next.

I glad that your glad how we’re being treated but I suppose to be straight up about it you don’t have a dog in that fight.

 

[vorcirion]

Good grief a totally brainwashed eu fanatic best of luck in your club enjoy the ride just don't ever try to leave they don't like it

I will certainly enjoy the ride! Life's good <3

 

[steveh35]

I will certainly enjoy the ride! Life's good <3

Yes when u ruled by a bunch of unelected nobodies like juncker and co who only care about money. When theres a terror attack the eu beurocrats suddenly disappear and it is a country's problem remember how the eu fled Brussels when there was a terror attack. Bunch of unelected cowards.

 

[vorcirion]

Yes when u ruled by a bunch of unelected nobodies like juncker and co who only care about money. When theres a terror attack the eu beurocrats suddenly disappear and it is a country's problem remember how the eu fled Brussels when there was a terror attack. Bunch of unelected cowards.

We're ruled by our own government who we elected. We also elected our representatives to EU who I assume have finnish interests in their hearts.

 

[steveh35]

We're ruled by our own government who we elected. We also elected our representatives to EU who I assume have finnish interests in their hearts.

Your government is powerless if they dont follow the eu rules remember i think it was hungry were close to electing a right wing government and the eu said if you do we will remove your eu voting rights. They are a dangerous group who will do whatever it takes to keep control of 27 countries they use money bribes to keep the poor countries quiet while France and Germany rule the roost.

 

[vorcirion]

Your government is powerless if they dont follow the eu rules remember i think it was hungry were close to electing a right wing government and the eu said if you do we will remove your eu voting rights. They are a dangerous group who will do whatever it takes to keep control of 27 countries they use money bribes to keep the poor countries quiet while France and Germany rule the roost.

We have certain core values in EU. I don't think we'd want some kind of dictator undermining freedom of speech. Violating human rights etc. If you want to deal with immigration...you can do that without doing trumpian things. Democracy is one of those core values. Without it people don't have any kind of power. And Orban seems to go against democracy. It's not about right-wing or left-wing.

 

[steveh35]

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Yes your government certainly has full control as part of eu the eu would never do anything against a sovereign country because the people voted a certain way

 

[steveh35]

To get the thread back on topic an 8th labour mp has decided to join the boring snowflake party tonight with chukup and friends. Only a few hundred more needed to even have a chance of looking like some kind of political force.

 

[mack341]

scraping the barrel a bit with this lot, I think I saw a report that some conservatives were going to join it too, which will make it even odder, how are they going to get the necessary funding to run a party, donations I guess?

having seen macron win in france maybe they believe a similar feat will be possible here, I'm just waiting for them to announce their new leader, the one and only: 'anthony charles lynton blair '

 

[steveh35]

scraping the barrel a bit with this lot, I think I saw a report that some conservatives were going to join it too, which will make it even odder, how are they going to get the necessary funding to run a party, donations I guess?

having seen macron win in france maybe they believe a similar feat will be possible here, I'm just waiting for them to announce their new leader, the one and only: 'anthony charles lynton blair '

Thanks for frightening me with that scary picture before bed guaranteed nightmares now

 

[pinnit2014]

scraping the barrel a bit with this lot, I think I saw a report that some conservatives were going to join it too, which will make it even odder, how are they going to get the necessary funding to run a party, donations I guess?

having seen macron win in france maybe they believe a similar feat will be possible here, I'm just waiting for them to announce their new leader, the one and only: 'anthony charles lynton blair '

To be fair, every company needs a good 'ol sociopath to lead them to prosperous times.

On the plus side: could see D:Ream get back in the charts

 

[ternur]

Alas Charles Darwin may disagree with you there. It's part of our instinct for survival and the alliances and actions we take to ensure it. Surely you can see that history bears this out? Take a look at these archaeological sites going back to the stone age and Iron Age as there's enough of them in the UK - these were all sited in closed, fenced defensive locations where the community could prosper and live without outside interference. I have seen stone age ones excavated in the Fens of Eastern England built on stilts in water and there's the Iron Age forts situated on top of hills with defensive ramparts. So regardless of politics, modern opinions and media commentators the proof as they say, is in the pudding sir.

He probably would.

I must admit, I have no deep knowledge of Darwin's theories. Please correct me if I'm mistaken in saying the following.

Darwinian anthropology holds that human behavior is biological and adaptive in nature. Biological evolution of man as described by Darwin is seen as a fact by most these days.

But I share the view that (esp.) Darwin's theory of natural selection supports the understanding of the psychological issues relating to human behaviour, but does not really explain or prove them. On the contrary, the application of the consept of evolution to society (social darwinism) has been widely refuted.

Evolutionary psychology (or modern Darwinism) use the theory of natural selection to explain the dynamics of the human group. But evolutionary psychologists use too many ambiquous consepts to my liking.

Darwin's social and political views left a lot be desired. While his work in the biological field is more or less undisputable, I don't find it that useful beyond its original domain (of biological evolution).

Back to the point. You asserted that habitance, security and protection are natural desires or basic human instincts. I agree that they are, when we talk about the elements that pose a danger to them. But are they inherited traits like Darwin might suggest? Or just passed on based on learning and experience? I'm more prone to the later one.

But like you said, the end result or goal is pretty much the same here (safety against harm) irrespective of the original presumption.

On the topic of the thread (loosely). It's interesting to see how Brexit goes. I personally like the political discussions of the reasons behind it. But that's a luxury for someone looking at this situation from the outside. I hope all turns out well for both, Britain and EU.