[IN PROGRESS] Luckyacecasino - bonus "abuse" problem

[vinylweatherman]

While there terms allow such actions, there is still the sanction of placing them either in the "not recommended" or "rogue" section for the widespread use of their "F U Clause". This is just the same as the Virtual group of RTG casinos have been doing, and again, no amount of intervention from Max or Bryan has managed to get players paid, however, the bad publicity of the rogue section seeks to cut their income in the hope that they will either go bust and make way for a more reputable outfit, or decide to change their ways.

The eCogra seal has been removed from their website now, and they are now "regulated" by IGC. This deception alone indicates they were willing to lie to convince new players they were eCogra members, and had access to an independent dispute resolution procedure.

This is going along the same lines as with Reef Club. They start by swearing they are a separate entity, yet it seems they are now banning players who are known to have accounts at 888.com.

Along with this, they are listed on a number of "bonus whoring" forums because of their Blackjack friendly (and thus Cassava bot friendly ) SUB.

I have found reference to Casinomeister on some of these whoring sites, but no direct encouragement to run here with PABs. It may be that the admins of these sites are advising using PAB here by PM to affected members.

Lucky Ace may be using the aff ID to track players coming in from these bonus whoring sites, which labels them as "high risk" even before they have played their first hand of Blackjack.

The Cassava bot has been around for some time, and it is likely it can be detected by the operators in the same way that poker bots are detected.
ANY player who has used this bot with the SUB has been fairly caught, it's an "occupational hazzard", and no doubt they have done well from it in the past.
It is also possible that a large number of "innocent" players are being caught up in the crossfire, which is what is going to damage the reputation of Lucky Ace. Other sites are already adding this casino to their "casino cautions" list - it seems this non-payment, and use of the "FU Clause", is pretty widespread with them, even though they have only just opened.

 

[maxd]

Great post VWM, thanks for the leg work.

It's good to hear that the eCOGRA seal is off the Lucky Ace site but as mentioned, my recommendation to Bryan when he returns to the office later this week will be that LA be black-flagged for their recent actions.

 

[Mousey]

In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account.

I've attempted another read through this thread for clarification -- I'm in a bit of hurry (finish my coffee and then off to work ) -- but is LuckyAce/888 also returning deposits of 'abusers' who lost?

 

[jetset]

I have to agree with VWM, and to a certain extent Max too.

Using the catch-all (or FU) clause indiscriminately as appears to be the case here to avoid paying players who have otherwise complied with promo T&Cs and have not been previously black-listed is definitely rogue behaviour that merits a rogue listing.

It is simply not conducting business with integrity imo, and by not engaging with advocates like Max, the 888.com people are refusing to justify and give grounds for their Luckyace decisions in each case, regardless of what their "we can do whatever we like" clauses say.

It's just too easy for a dishonest operator to make a unilateral judgement that a winning player has been guilty of so-called bonus abuse and then confiscate his winnings and promised bonuses without further explanation. The return of a deposit may to some extent ameliorate the wrongdoing, but it certainly doesn't excuse it in my view.

Something is badly wrong here - there are way too many complaints from diverse locations and too little explanation from 888.com - even in confidence to Max - for comfort.

You don't get this sort of thing happening at reputable white labelers like St Minver (as one example) afaik. The false use of the eCOGRA seal is another negative indicator (afraid I have no confidence in the IGC being any use here)

This is also setting a perilous precedent for white labeled operations, whereby any operator who has perhaps miscalculated a promo or is for some other reason feeling too much pain from a misguided promo offer can merely roll out the FU clause and duck both bonus and win obligations at will.

I don't think the FU clause should be allowed to stand between 888.com/Luckyace and a blacklisting if this issue is not addressed in a more communicative fashion by 888.com.

And Max is absolutely right - players need to take a very close look at this affair before giving any business to Luckyace.

 

[Fender1]

Balls?!? What have balls got to do with this? Have you read my posts here? Do you have any idea what's actually going on?

Am I not the one juggling the 20+ complaints (many of which are invalid because the person didn't bother to read the rules for submitting one in the first place), trying to get eCOGRA and/or 888 to step up to the plate, pressing the so-called 888 rep here to take some action, and working my weekends (basically for free) to get this mess sorted out? Not to mention all the other non-LuckyAce issues on my plate. And you have the brass to say I have no balls?!?

Here's balls for you: players who agree to "we can rape you when and where we feel like it" Terms and Conditions simply in order to get a shot at a nice, fat, easy pickings bonus are fools! The casino always wins if they really want to play it that way and anyone who thinks differently is terminally naive. Yes, most casinos won't do what Lucky Ace is doing because their reputation would be shit if they did. That's a good thing and we should all play at those casinos. But when push comes to shove the T&Cs rule and here the T&Cs say "tough titty." End of story.

While we're on the subject of balls, how about we talk about what I can do to help this situation. I can recommend that Lucky Ace be black-listed for all the shit they've pulled and I intend to do just that. I can suggest that a close, hard look be taken at 888's responsibility in all this and I intend to do that too. And I can be up-front and straight with these players about what their real chances are in terms of getting any satisfaction out of their grievances. Have done. And last but not least I can ask you for an apology for your well meant but seriously misplaced criticism.

There, how's that for balls?



My my, what an unpleasantly sanctimonious person you've managed to be. I may have found my first candidate for the "Ignore" filter.

Well thats better, at least you are now showing some interest, 10 minutes ago you were throwing in the towel. And yes I know exactley what is going on here. A rogue casino stealing players winning on a large scale, whether they can legally get away with it, because its in the small print, is hardly the point

If a casino interpets the rules in an unfair way, that should be enough grounds for a complaint.

And we are not talking just a few players here, 100s would be my guess. I have over 20 on my site alone.

Pretty good business plan, if the player loses great, if the player wins just return their deposit.

On such a widespread scale, the word fraud springs to mind.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Well thats better, at least you are now showing some interest, 10 minutes ago you were throwing in the towel. And yes I know exactley what is going on here. A rogue casino stealing players winning on a large scale, whether they can legally get away with it, because its in the small print, is hardly the point

If a casino interpets the rules in an unfair way, that should be enough grounds for a complaint.

And we are not talking just a few players here, 100s would be my guess. I have over 20 on my site alone.

Pretty good business plan, if the player loses great, if the player wins just return their deposit.

On such a widespread scale, the word fraud springs to mind.

What site would this be then?

Your profile has "none" for webmastered sites.

It is possible that your 20 players are having problems due to following the recommendations on your site, not forgetting that your aff ID can be used by Lucky Ace to detect the players you are sending to them.
If your site is still promoting them, we have to ask why, since you clearly believe they are frauds. The other bonus whoring sites seem to be sitting on the fence, both promoting the SUB with a "get it while you can" attitude, but at the same time discussing the problems of non-payment.

 

[Fender1]

I have pmd you the details of the site that I am from. Not alowed to mention rival sites here.

Surely the can be no question now that these guys are frauds. I mean how much more blatent do you want. Check out the other forums, wherever you go, same story.

Im struggling to remember a case as bad as this

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

Well thats better, at least you are now showing some interest, 10 minutes ago you were throwing in the towel.

I have no clue where you're getting that from but whatever, your comments have been inappropriate and ill-informed so far so I'm not surprised that state of confusion persists.

As it happens I've been working on this LuckyAce thing for over a week now and have only recently made up my mind about what is and isn't going on here. Yes, sometimes it does take some of us a little time to come to conclusions what with the evidence gathering and due diligence and all, unlike yourself who seems to perform great leaps of conclusion jumping with absolutely no evidence or grounds whatsoever. Still waiting for that apology by the way.

My recommendations to Bryan re: Lucky Ace would have been submitted already but he's away this week so they wait.

Re: JetSet's thoughts on LuckyAce's performance, I completely agree that the FU clause should be no dodge from the consequences of using it. LA has behaved abominably and should be flagged accordingly.

However, in terms of a player's PAB the FU clause + deposit returned is basically the end of the road. Why? Ask yourself the purpose of the PAB. It is a complaint from a player to us in the understanding that we'll bring it up with the casino. If the casino has acted according to the letter of their T&Cs then there's no issue, especially if the deposit was returned. Do I respect them for doing this? Not a chance, but I can't argue with them about it either because they've acted as per their agreement with the player. So in terms of the PAB it's a dead issue.

What we choose to do about a casino that is FU'ing great numbers of players though is a different issue. That's up to us, not them and their T&Cs, and so we can obviously move forward there where the PABs may be dead in the water. As I've said, we'll do so when B. returns.

 

[Fender1]

Quote:
As it happens I've been working on this LuckyAce thing for over a week now and have only recently made up my mind about what is and isn't going on here. Yes, sometimes it does take some of us a little time to come to conclusions what with the evidence gathering and due diligence and all, unlike yourself who seems to perform great leaps of conclusion jumping with absolutely no evidence or grounds whatsoever. Still waiting for that apology by the way. quote

What you talking about Max, Yes I knew what was going on the first day when the "We ain't paying you because you won" emails started being sent out

Then again I may have more experience of these matters than yourself.

Seen it all before sadly. I am pleased that you will be taking some action, and will be even more impressed, should that action result in those players affected receiving their confiscated winnings. That really should be the main aim, dont you agree?

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

What you talking about Max

I'm talking about your cheap little insults like "ready to throw in the towel", "get some balls", "stand aside" and the like. You have no idea what I'm doing, how I'm doing it or where it's going.

So far it looks like I've contributed to get Lucky Ace start paying back at least the deposits, get the bogus eCOGRA seal removed from the LA site and I may or may not end up getting LA blacklisted depending on how they proceed with this. What have you done aside from piss me off? Not much that I can see. In any case you haven't done it here so go thump your chest somewhere else.

I have no idea who you think you are but if you think you have more experience at this than I do, congrats! Considering I started doing this about 8 weeks ago I'm not sure that's saying much. In any case you know Bryan's email address, send him your resum if you think you're the man for the job. In the meantime get of my tits and spare me the pissant cheap shots.

I am pleased that you will be taking some action, and will be even more impressed, should that action result in those players affected receiving their confiscated winnings. That really should be the main aim, dont you agree?

No, I don't agree. Why? Because it's not going to happen. Either they can't or they won't but the end result is the same: not happening! You can preach all you like about what should happen or what lofty goals one might have but I'm living in the real world and that spells this: we're lucky if we get the player's deposits back and the casino gets what it seems determined to have in terms of it's listing here.

As to your "being pleased" etc please, spare me the love. Insults and denigration coming out of one side of your mouth and back-handed compliments out of the other add up to bullshit both ways if you ask me.

 

[GaryWatson]

Fender, there could be other issues surrounding this that hasnt come to light. It could be an overreaction to an affiliate CPA scam + Min Deposits & Max bonuses. Could be many factors. It does look iffy but do you not think its better for CM to gather facts before jumping in? Some sites are too quick to freeze accounts but a less confrontation approach may open the gates to communication.

 

[Fender1]

I'm talking about your cheap little insults like "ready to throw in the towel", "get some balls", "stand aside" and the like. You have no idea what I'm doing, how I'm doing it or where it's going.

So far it looks like I've contributed to get Lucky Ace start paying back at least the deposits, get the bogus eCOGRA seal removed from the LA site and I may or may not end up getting LA blacklisted depending on how they proceed with this. What have you done aside from piss me off? Not much that I can see. In any case you haven't done it here so go thump your chest somewhere else.

I have no idea who you think you are but if you think you have more experience at this than I do, congrats! Considering I started doing this about 8 weeks ago I'm not sure that's saying much. In any case you know Bryan's email address, send him your resum if you think you're the man for the job. In the meantime get of my tits and spare me the pissant cheap shots.

No, I don't agree. Why? Because it's not going to happen. Either they can't or they won't but the end result is the same: not happening! You can preach all you like about what should happen or what lofty goals one might have but I'm living in the real world and that spells this: we're lucky if we get the player's deposits back and the casino gets what it seems determined to have in terms of it's listing here.

As to your "being pleased" etc please, spare me the love. Insults and denigration coming out of one side of your mouth and back-handed compliments out of the other add up to bullshit both ways if you ask me.

I am sure that all those players that have had money stolen from them, will be sleeping more easily tonight with such encouraging comments like "Because it's not going to happen. Either they can't or they won't but the end result is the same: not happening"

It does happen, casinos do back down and return winnings, if you put some pressure on them, but your giving up before you have even started.

Anyway lets cease the insult trading, best of luck with Luck Ace, I think your going to need it.

 

[Fender1]

Fender, there could be other issues surrounding this that hasnt come to light. It could be an overreaction to an affiliate CPA scam + Min Deposits & Max bonuses. Could be many factors. It does look iffy but do you not think its better for CM to gather facts before jumping in? Some sites are too quick to freeze accounts but a less confrontation approach may open the gates to communication.

Yes perhaps, but you have to go in with a positive approach, getting the players winnings returned has to be the ultimate aim. They were always going to return the deposits anyway.

 

[Roar]

And I respectfully decline. Aside from the fact that we're getting into serious hair-splitting here -- as in you can choose one interpretation while I might choose another. Are either of us lawyers? Is this a court? -- you might want to note the following from those same T&Cs:



The way I read this they can close your account, take "any amounts owed by you to us" which could be taken to mean the winnings and the bonus, refund your deposit and send you on your way. Which is what they've done.

I'm telling you that there is no point in pursuing a case that they will tell me is invalid because of their T&Cs. After all, I'd be appealing to them for resolution not some disinterested third party. Frankly if you want to debate this further I suggest you engage a lawyer and take it up with the casino. As far as I'm concerned it's "case closed" for the reasons given.

Max if I may prevail upon your better judgment one last time.

On registering at this or indeed any online Casino Players are immediately swamped with reams of Legalese that form under the heading T+Cs. One has to have at least a quasi understanding of Legal Terms in order to at least partly understand and comprehend their meaning and intent.

It was not my intent to "split hairs". On the contrary, I applied ordinary everyday use of the English Dictionary to elicit the meaning and intent of the following T+Cs:

"Quote:
In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account."

The T+Cs conspicuously do not mention the withholding of "winnings" per se but only a "bonus" or "promotion".

On completion of certain wagering requirements a bonus becomes cashable as winnings. This change of status is practicably demonstrated at many Casinos that shift funds from a "pending bonus" status to a "cash balance" on fulfilling WRs (Chartwell SW casinos come instantly to mind).

Whoever framed this particular T+Cs had this in mind on choosing words "is" or "is likely" (connoting present or future tense) instead of "has" (connoting past tense). Allow me to illustrate the affect of substituting the word "is" for "has":

In the event that the Company believes a user has abused a bonus or other promotion, or has benefited through abuse or lack of good faith..........

Do you not agree that is manifestly different in meaning and intent from the present T+Cs? Are we not entitled to apply ordinary interpretation from the English dictionary to elicit meaning from such words?

By the time Players have cashed out and requested withdrawals any perception of "bonus abuse" has past into a historical perspective and accordingly escapes the specific present or future context for which the subject T+Cs were intended. The bonus is no longer a bonus per se but cashable winnings for which the T+Cs do not cover.

I wish all involved good luck, good fortune and good times.

 

[RobWin]

The eCogra seal has been removed from their website now, and they are now "regulated" by IGC. This deception alone indicates they were willing to lie to convince new players they were eCogra members, and had access to an independent dispute resolution procedure.

No, not quite yet VWM...it's still there as you can see from the time stamp and pic below...

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

I am sure that all those players that have had money stolen from them, will be sleeping more easily tonight with such encouraging comments like ... Anyway lets cease the insult trading.

Nice try: insult, then say "lets cease the insult trading."

You know what, if it was up to me you'd be toast here. You're a smug, insulting, troublemaker who can't say "sugar" without saying "shit" and the net worth of your little contribution on this topic -- as I'm assuming is typical for you -- has been less than zero. But I guess it's your lucky day because it's not up to me. Funny how life works some times.

In any case what I'm hearing is that the players are at least happy to be getting their deposits back. Not what it could be to be sure, but a lot better than nothing.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

However, in terms of a player's PAB the FU clause + deposit returned is basically the end of the road.

No dog in this hunt but this thread reminds me of the Fortune Lounge heated legnthy thread that was a similiar situation (where at times CM was conflicted but eventually threw FL into the Pit) and the PAB's were basically not the end of the road for the innocent as FL applied the FU clause (just as about 99% of all online casinos can if they desire) and other terms initially to both the non-innocents and what later would be determined a few innocents. That said, I am sure CM's past relationship and contacts as well as persistence with FL helped to eventually get the non bonus abusers and non fraudsters paid their winnings. Simply may not be possible here as Lucky... simply may not care!

 

[jetset]

Fender, you're talking a big game here, but as a webmaster yourself what are you doing to achieve the goals you are so quick to accuse Max of neglecting?

BTW, I'm sure most of us would be happy to make an exception on the self-spamming protocol by allowing you to identify your website here - it may be interesting to see how you are handling this issue and how experienced you are in view of your comments here.

Edited to add that Nash makes a good point - there have been a number of Casinomeister FU interventions where robust persuasion has caused operators to reconsider sometimes hasty and unfair decisions.

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

Max if I may prevail upon your better judgment one last time.

And one last time I decline. Bantering the nuances of the wording in terms and conditions with a casino that has demonstrated that they are intent of wiping winnings off the books under the protection of those terms and conditions seem to me the world's most useless activity. Lawyers find such activities profitable because they get paid to do it, I don't and I won't.

It doesn't matter what "could" or "might" be derived from that wording. What matters is that they're using the T&Cs to justify their actions and there is no reason to believe that appealing to their higher linguistic sensibilities will change that.

 

[juan988]

Nice try: insult, then say "lets cease the insult trading."

You know what, if it was up to me you'd be toast here. You're a smug, insulting, troublemaker who can't say "sugar" without saying "shit" and the net worth of your little contribution on this topic -- as I'm assuming is typical for you -- has been less than zero. But I guess it's your lucky day because it's not up to me. Funny how life works some times.

In any case what I'm hearing is that the players are at least happy to be getting their deposits back. Not what it could be to be sure, but a lot better than nothing.

To be entirely honest, and I don't know about other players, but I can't claim to be happy about getting only my deposit back.

It's a kick straight in the face. We can all sit quite comfortably to know that now, and officially, bonus abuse is not a rarity or particular case, it occurs almost everytime somebody wins with a low house-edge game.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

I think Maxd's attitude is appalling , I think this site is little more than an affilaite site now.

Can I suggest you visit SportsBookReview Maxd, and ask the staff there for some lessons in how handle cases like this, you are obviously out of your league.

 

[winna12]

Rceived this from the so called casino luckyace/888.com-

Dear xxxxx

This is Linda from the Operations Department at Cassava Enterprises
(Gibraltar) Ltd. Cassava Enterprises manage operational services for LuckyAceCasino.com.

Please be advised that we have reviewed you account and the decision taken to terminate your account still stands and it will not be revoked.
Your initial deposit has been returned from where it came from.

I ask that you refrain from opening any further account on our site or affiliates.

I now consider this issue closed and there will be no further correspondence on this issue.

Kindest regards,
Linda
Operations Department
Cassava Enterprises (Gibraltar) Ltd.
operations@cassava.net

ive pab but now im on my own by the look of things,will these ba**ards pay the people that lost their deposits NO,all they want is LOSERS not winners,and they have proved that,Anyway anyone got any advice?is it worth me going alone and emailing the grai in gibraltar,or just forget about it,any suggestions welcome.

 

[aka23]

In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account.

So, if you receive one of those "goodbye" letters AND you get your deposit back then you have no grounds to complain and certainly no grounds for a PAB. LATER: Let me elaborate a little. I would say you do have grounds to be pissed off and point them out for their lousy actions but according to the terms of the player agreement at LuckyAce you don't technically have a grievance you can bring before them.

So let me spell this out: if your Lucky Ace account is closed and you get your deposit back then they are doing exactly what you agreed to let them do and there are no grounds for a PAB.

The problem is how you define "attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith." A casino could say anyone who takes a bonus and has a large win is attempting to abuse the bonus and/or lacks good faith, and anyone who has a loss is not attempting to abuse the bonus. In my opinion, you need to do something that violates the T&C to "abuse a bonus," such as have multiple accounts.

 

[tsj]

The problem is how you define "attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith." A casino could say anyone who takes a bonus and has a large win is attempting to abuse the bonus and/or lacks good faith, and anyone who has a loss is not attempting to abuse the bonus. In my opinion, you need to do something that violates the T&C to "abuse a bonus," such as have multiple accounts.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

is it worth me going alone and emailing the grai in gibraltar,or just forget about it,any suggestions welcome

There are forms to fill in on the help section GRA , I suggest its probably a far better route than asking for help here.

1) email luckyace and tell them you intend to contact the GRA if they do not pay you your winnings in 48 hours

2) Tell them you will also be bringing up the ecogra issue with the GRA, and tell them you have a screen shot

If that fails then download the forms from www.gra.gi .