Betway confiscating winnings on absurd grounds

**xaxik** · 1st February 2010, 06:13 PM

This post has been concealed because there is a PAB in progress regarding this issue.

The Terms of the PAB process state that PAB issues should NOT be discussed on the forums while the PAB is in progress (see the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ for details, especially items 2.6 and 3.10).

Open discussion of the contents of this post could harm the OP's chances of a successful PAB resolution.

I recently played at Betway, claiming their sign-up bonus of $250 and thus having a total of $500.
Among other games I played multi-hand blackjack sometimes making 5 bets (playing 5 hands) of $70 for a total of $350.
I met the wagering requirements, cashed out and received the 1st part of withdrawal promptly. However, there was a delay with the 2nd part, though it was shown as "sent" in the account history.

I contacted my bank for them to search for a lost payment, then I contacted betway support and was told they confistacted my winnings for violating T&Cs (although they had processed the 1st withdrawal exceeding my deposit). Note that I hadn't even been contacted by them informing me of this situation. They didn't even bother writing to me saying they are confiscating nearly 1k$! Nice support quality, betway!

But here comes the craziest part: after waiting for a few days for betway to state what was/were the term/s I broke I was told I violated the rule prohibiting SINGLE bets exceeding 30% of bonus:
"Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met, unless that is allowed in the specific term of a campaign"

So their brilliant idea for *solving their cashflow problems* confiscating winnings is that 5 bets/hands in Multi-hand blackjack are in fact a SINGLE bet. Thus, when placing 5x$70 bets I actually placed a single bet of $350, which is greater than 30% of bonus, while $70 isn't big enough to confiscate winnings.
5 bets at MH BJ are not a single bet by any means not matter what psychedelic substances you take. Their argument is that total risk is $350 and you can lose or win as much as $350 when playing this way hence it's a single bet. One could argue that you could won or lose $350 when playing 5 consecutive hands on single hand blackjack, so this isn;t really relevant. Also, when several players play blackjack at land-based casinos you wouldnt say that they as a group are placing a single bet overall? Blackjack at land-based casinos is similar in this way to multi-hand blackjack at online casinos.

Was really surprised to come across such behaviour from a casino thought to be reputable.

Comments are welcome.

**KasinoKing** · 1st February 2010, 07:33 PM

Well we all know why you were betting like that. I know it, you know it, and the casino knows it.

Their 30% rule was obviously meant to prevent this style of advantage play, but they either didn't take the multi-hand game into account, or in their minds 5-hands betting against just 1 dealer hand is just one bet.

You could try Pitching a Bitch with Max, but personally I think your chances of success are low because it boils down to a matter of interpretation of the rules.

Good luck!
KK

**xaxik** · 1st February 2010, 07:56 PM

I know I was betting like that because I wanted to gamble. You KNOW something different?
Anyway, the "why" question is completely irrelevant here. It's about facts, what was "meant" or what they "didn't take into account".
Betway could have easily limited max bet size as have many MGs. and if they want to use this rule with the multi-hand game they must have taken it into accountand made it clear what this rule meant.

That's a nice try of inventing excuses for a casino.

Thanks for wishing luck, anyway!

Originally Posted by KasinoKing

Well we all know why you were betting like that. I know it, you know it, and the casino knows it.

Their 30% rule was obviously meant to prevent this style of advantage play, but they either didn't take the multi-hand game into account, or in their minds 5-hands betting against just 1 dealer hand is just one bet.

You could try Pitching a Bitch with Max, but personally I think your chances of success are low because it boils down to a matter of interpretation of the rules.

Good luck!
KK

**vinylweatherman** · 1st February 2010, 09:29 PM

Clearly, there is a loophole that needs to be closed regarding the interpretation of this rule when multi-hand games are being played, and also when games with multi-stage betting is allowed, such as 3-card Poker (is it 30% on pair+ and another 30% on ante, 30% overall, or 30% including the play bet as well).

Even if a PAB were to succeed, this kind of play will earn a lifetime bonus ban.

It is not the same as placing 5 consecutive bets of $70 on single hand BJ, because this strategy is higher variance, and works because of the possibility of the dealer busting, making all 5 bets winners, and equivalent to a single bet of more than 100% of the bonus balance.

Since MGS now offer limit reduction when bonuses are in play, operators have a responsibility to USE IT, protecting the unwitting player from falling into a trap due to such problems, and ALSO to outwit the clever player who seeks out loopholes. This would prevent the smart-ass player from even TRYING it on, and would thus prevent them from making an issue about any subsequent confiscation of winnings.

The PAB (if accepted), would have to consider whether placing 5 bets on a multi-hand game is covered by the term limiting single bets to 30% of bonus balance.

The 30% term itself has been discussed, and passed as an acceptable defence against the excesses of advantage play, provided it is made CLEAR to players in the BONUS terms, and not buried away in the "legalese".

There are MANY casinos taking this clear percentage of initial bonus max bet approach, rather than using the outdated "by management decision" approach.

**maxd** · 2nd February 2010, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by xaxik

That's a nice try of inventing excuses for a casino.

You asked for input, KK offered his, no need to be crusty toward him because you didn't like what he had to say. "Thanks, but I don't see it that way" would have been perfectly sufficient.

**thelawnet** · 2nd February 2010, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

Clearly, there is a loophole that needs to be closed regarding the interpretation of this rule when multi-hand games are being played, and also when games with multi-stage betting is allowed, such as 3-card Poker (is it 30% on pair+ and another 30% on ante, 30% overall, or 30% including the play bet as well).

Indeed, the casino needs to make their rules airtight before using them to confiscate player's funds. As there is considerable ambiguity here, they shouldn't be trying this.

There are too many complexities - double and split bets in blackjack, odds and other post-come out roll bets in craps, additional bets in various poker games - for them to rely on this clause.

Even if a PAB were to succeed, this kind of play will earn a lifetime bonus ban.

Possibly, but I think that would depend on the player's overall behaviour. If he goes back and redeposits without a bonus and plays the same way, or he goes a way over the wagering requirement, they might well decide that he's just a gambler, and a good customer.

In any case, the casino's business decision about whether to offer further bonuses is irrelevant to their quasi-legal decision to pay the player.

**heador112** · 2nd February 2010, 03:42 PM

The OP had only a bankroll of 500 Dollars and placed a bet 5x70 dollar in a Blackjack game . He placed a single bet of 350 dollar in one gaming round and this is the important point where he breaks the Casino rules . It was an error from the Casino to process the first withdrawal of winnings . They may have not made any necessary gaming investigation before releasing the funds .

Besides its obvious he wanted to abuse the bonus with these large bets.......

Possibly, but I think that would depend on the player's overall behaviour. If he goes back and redeposits without a bonus and plays the same way, or he goes a way over the wagering requirement, they might well decide that he's just a gambler, and a good customer.

This is an important point . Alot of Casinos which limit the betsize ,if a bonus is included, allow loyal customers to make larger bets with their bonuses if the request it . Anyway only the minority of players will do that . If you are a player for entertaining purpose you wouldnt place bets bigger then 50 % of your bankroll because you dont want to loose your bankroll within 2 minutes .
I doubt the OP would place a 350 dollar bet with a bankroll of 500 dollars without a bonus.
Additionally he lives in a country known for a high rate of bonus abuse .

In my point of view Betways decision is correct , because the 30 % rule was broken .

**GOCC** · 2nd February 2010, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by heador112

Besides its obvious he wanted to abuse the bonus with these large bets.......

.

Why is it everytime someone has a big bet, they are abusing a bonus. I sometimes play 300-500 a spin on live roullete without a bonus so whys that.

**winbig** · 2nd February 2010, 06:36 PM

because you dont want to loose your bankroll within 2 minutes .

Not all players are in this for the "entertainment" value.

**thelawnet** · 2nd February 2010, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by heador112

The OP had only a bankroll of 500 Dollars and placed a bet 5x70 dollar in a Blackjack game . He placed a single bet of 350 dollar in one gaming round and this is the important point where he breaks the Casino rules . It was an error from the Casino to process the first withdrawal of winnings . They may have not made any necessary gaming investigation before releasing the funds .

This is not really accurate.

He placed five single bets of $70 in one gaming round.

Not one $350 bet.

The five bets are somewhat correlated, but this is not the same thing as for instance betting $4 on each of numbers 1-18 in roulette and then $72 on '1-18' - in that case, you have effectively bet $144 on '1-18', meaning you will either double or bust - there is no other possible outcome.

In this case however, it is possible (for example) to win 2 bets, lose 2 bets, and push 1. Which is potentially no different from making 5 successive bets at $70/hand, on single-hand blackjack. It is clear that this is not one single $350 bet from this fact. If I go to the bookies, and I bet $70 on five different players scoring home runs in the course of a baseball game, each of my five bets can win or lose, and no one would suggest they are anything other than five single bets, even though the outcomes are correlated (a strong opposing pitching performance means my bets are more likely to all come off losers, just as the dealer turning over a 20 means all five blackjack bets are likely to lose also).

The player generates about 1/3 more standard deviation per dollar bet using this strategy, but given that the house advantage on blackjack is so low, the practical edge gained is negligible - essentially rather than betting a total of $1000 before reaching a high enough balance to go off to play something else (blackjack counts only 2% to wagering, so I doubt he played it to completion), he would expect to bet $1500 instead. An extra $500 bet at a house edge of somewhere around 0.3% amounts to an extra $1.50 going to the house on average.

This should not be considered material - a 30% of bonus max bet limits players to $74 bets, and if you've ever played any amount of blackjack, you will realise that you can easily get your balance to high levels.

Besides its obvious he wanted to abuse the bonus with these large bets.......

What does this mean? If I am walking through a casino in Las Vegas with $100 in my pocket, and I throw it all down on one hand, are they going to get upset? No, of course not. But the reality is I have a much better chance of winning by doing that than if I bet $10/hand.

So what. The player is entitled to want to win ('abuse the bonus' as you put it). If he breaks the rules, those rules having been explained clearly in advance, the casino can decide not to pay him, otherwise they have to pay him. 'abuse' is a nonsense word.

This is an important point . Alot of Casinos which limit the betsize ,if a bonus is included, allow loyal customers to make larger bets with their bonuses if the request it . Anyway only the minority of players will do that . If you are a player for entertaining purpose you wouldnt place bets bigger then 50 % of your bankroll because you dont want to loose your bankroll within 2 minutes .
I doubt the OP would place a 350 dollar bet with a bankroll of 500 dollars without a bonus.

I've seen it done. Walking through the casino, table shows 10 reds in a row, player puts everything on black. What is this 'entertaining purpose' - if you want to play for entertainment, you don't deposit money, you just play in free play mode.

The only reason to play for money is because you can win.

Additionally he lives in a country known for a high rate of bonus abuse .

racist.

In my point of view Betways decision is correct , because the 30 % rule was broken .

it wasn't. Five separate bets on five separate events. All five of them had a separate chance to win, lose, or push, just like making five bets one after another.