Betway confiscating winnings on absurd grounds

[xaxik]

[pab-in-progress]I recently played at Betway, claiming their sign-up bonus of $250 and thus having a total of $500.
Among other games I played multi-hand blackjack sometimes making 5 bets (playing 5 hands) of $70 for a total of $350.
I met the wagering requirements, cashed out and received the 1st part of withdrawal promptly. However, there was a delay with the 2nd part, though it was shown as "sent" in the account history.

I contacted my bank for them to search for a lost payment, then I contacted betway support and was told they confistacted my winnings for violating T&Cs (although they had processed the 1st withdrawal exceeding my deposit). Note that I hadn't even been contacted by them informing me of this situation. They didn't even bother writing to me saying they are confiscating nearly 1k$! Nice support quality, betway!

But here comes the craziest part: after waiting for a few days for betway to state what was/were the term/s I broke I was told I violated the rule prohibiting SINGLE bets exceeding 30% of bonus:
"Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met, unless that is allowed in the specific term of a campaign"

So their brilliant idea for *solving their cashflow problems* confiscating winnings is that 5 bets/hands in Multi-hand blackjack are in fact a SINGLE bet. Thus, when placing 5x$70 bets I actually placed a single bet of $350, which is greater than 30% of bonus, while $70 isn't big enough to confiscate winnings.
5 bets at MH BJ are not a single bet by any means not matter what psychedelic substances you take. Their argument is that total risk is $350 and you can lose or win as much as $350 when playing this way hence it's a single bet. One could argue that you could won or lose $350 when playing 5 consecutive hands on single hand blackjack, so this isn;t really relevant. Also, when several players play blackjack at land-based casinos you wouldnt say that they as a group are placing a single bet overall? Blackjack at land-based casinos is similar in this way to multi-hand blackjack at online casinos.

Was really surprised to come across such behaviour from a casino thought to be reputable.

Comments are welcome.[/pab-in-progress]

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All the details on this casino can be found here

 

[KasinoKing]

Well we all know why you were betting like that. I know it, you know it, and the casino knows it.

Their 30% rule was obviously meant to prevent this style of advantage play, but they either didn't take the multi-hand game into account, or in their minds 5-hands betting against just 1 dealer hand is just one bet.

You could try Pitching a Bitch with Max, but personally I think your chances of success are low because it boils down to a matter of interpretation of the rules.

Good luck!
KK

 

[xaxik]

I know I was betting like that because I wanted to gamble. You KNOW something different?
Anyway, the "why" question is completely irrelevant here. It's about facts, what was "meant" or what they "didn't take into account".
Betway could have easily limited max bet size as have many MGs. and if they want to use this rule with the multi-hand game they must have taken it into accountand made it clear what this rule meant.

That's a nice try of inventing excuses for a casino.

Thanks for wishing luck, anyway!

Well we all know why you were betting like that. I know it, you know it, and the casino knows it.

Their 30% rule was obviously meant to prevent this style of advantage play, but they either didn't take the multi-hand game into account, or in their minds 5-hands betting against just 1 dealer hand is just one bet.

You could try Pitching a Bitch with Max, but personally I think your chances of success are low because it boils down to a matter of interpretation of the rules.

Good luck!
KK

 

[vinylweatherman]

Clearly, there is a loophole that needs to be closed regarding the interpretation of this rule when multi-hand games are being played, and also when games with multi-stage betting is allowed, such as 3-card Poker (is it 30% on pair+ and another 30% on ante, 30% overall, or 30% including the play bet as well).

Even if a PAB were to succeed, this kind of play will earn a lifetime bonus ban.

It is not the same as placing 5 consecutive bets of $70 on single hand BJ, because this strategy is higher variance, and works because of the possibility of the dealer busting, making all 5 bets winners, and equivalent to a single bet of more than 100% of the bonus balance.

Since MGS now offer limit reduction when bonuses are in play, operators have a responsibility to USE IT, protecting the unwitting player from falling into a trap due to such problems, and ALSO to outwit the clever player who seeks out loopholes. This would prevent the smart-ass player from even TRYING it on, and would thus prevent them from making an issue about any subsequent confiscation of winnings.

The PAB (if accepted), would have to consider whether placing 5 bets on a multi-hand game is covered by the term limiting single bets to 30% of bonus balance.

The 30% term itself has been discussed, and passed as an acceptable defence against the excesses of advantage play, provided it is made CLEAR to players in the BONUS terms, and not buried away in the "legalese".

There are MANY casinos taking this clear percentage of initial bonus max bet approach, rather than using the outdated "by management decision" approach.

 

[maxd]

That's a nice try of inventing excuses for a casino.

You asked for input, KK offered his, no need to be crusty toward him because you didn't like what he had to say. "Thanks, but I don't see it that way" would have been perfectly sufficient.

 

[thelawnet]

Clearly, there is a loophole that needs to be closed regarding the interpretation of this rule when multi-hand games are being played, and also when games with multi-stage betting is allowed, such as 3-card Poker (is it 30% on pair+ and another 30% on ante, 30% overall, or 30% including the play bet as well).

Indeed, the casino needs to make their rules airtight before using them to confiscate player's funds. As there is considerable ambiguity here, they shouldn't be trying this.

There are too many complexities - double and split bets in blackjack, odds and other post-come out roll bets in craps, additional bets in various poker games - for them to rely on this clause.

Even if a PAB were to succeed, this kind of play will earn a lifetime bonus ban.

Possibly, but I think that would depend on the player's overall behaviour. If he goes back and redeposits without a bonus and plays the same way, or he goes a way over the wagering requirement, they might well decide that he's just a gambler, and a good customer.

In any case, the casino's business decision about whether to offer further bonuses is irrelevant to their quasi-legal decision to pay the player.

 

[heador112]

The OP had only a bankroll of 500 Dollars and placed a bet 5x70 dollar in a Blackjack game . He placed a single bet of 350 dollar in one gaming round and this is the important point where he breaks the Casino rules . It was an error from the Casino to process the first withdrawal of winnings . They may have not made any necessary gaming investigation before releasing the funds .

Besides its obvious he wanted to abuse the bonus with these large bets.......

Possibly, but I think that would depend on the player's overall behaviour. If he goes back and redeposits without a bonus and plays the same way, or he goes a way over the wagering requirement, they might well decide that he's just a gambler, and a good customer.

This is an important point . Alot of Casinos which limit the betsize ,if a bonus is included, allow loyal customers to make larger bets with their bonuses if the request it . Anyway only the minority of players will do that . If you are a player for entertaining purpose you wouldnt place bets bigger then 50 % of your bankroll because you dont want to loose your bankroll within 2 minutes .
I doubt the OP would place a 350 dollar bet with a bankroll of 500 dollars without a bonus.
Additionally he lives in a country known for a high rate of bonus abuse .

In my point of view Betways decision is correct , because the 30 % rule was broken .

 

[GOCC]

Besides its obvious he wanted to abuse the bonus with these large bets.......

.

Why is it everytime someone has a big bet, they are abusing a bonus. I sometimes play 300-500 a spin on live roullete without a bonus so whys that.

 

[winbig]

because you dont want to loose your bankroll within 2 minutes .

Not all players are in this for the "entertainment" value.

 

[thelawnet]

The OP had only a bankroll of 500 Dollars and placed a bet 5x70 dollar in a Blackjack game . He placed a single bet of 350 dollar in one gaming round and this is the important point where he breaks the Casino rules . It was an error from the Casino to process the first withdrawal of winnings . They may have not made any necessary gaming investigation before releasing the funds .

This is not really accurate.

He placed five single bets of $70 in one gaming round.

Not one $350 bet.

The five bets are somewhat correlated, but this is not the same thing as for instance betting $4 on each of numbers 1-18 in roulette and then $72 on '1-18' - in that case, you have effectively bet $144 on '1-18', meaning you will either double or bust - there is no other possible outcome.

In this case however, it is possible (for example) to win 2 bets, lose 2 bets, and push 1. Which is potentially no different from making 5 successive bets at $70/hand, on single-hand blackjack. It is clear that this is not one single $350 bet from this fact. If I go to the bookies, and I bet $70 on five different players scoring home runs in the course of a baseball game, each of my five bets can win or lose, and no one would suggest they are anything other than five single bets, even though the outcomes are correlated (a strong opposing pitching performance means my bets are more likely to all come off losers, just as the dealer turning over a 20 means all five blackjack bets are likely to lose also).

The player generates about 1/3 more standard deviation per dollar bet using this strategy, but given that the house advantage on blackjack is so low, the practical edge gained is negligible - essentially rather than betting a total of $1000 before reaching a high enough balance to go off to play something else (blackjack counts only 2% to wagering, so I doubt he played it to completion), he would expect to bet $1500 instead. An extra $500 bet at a house edge of somewhere around 0.3% amounts to an extra $1.50 going to the house on average.

This should not be considered material - a 30% of bonus max bet limits players to $74 bets, and if you've ever played any amount of blackjack, you will realise that you can easily get your balance to high levels.

Besides its obvious he wanted to abuse the bonus with these large bets.......

What does this mean? If I am walking through a casino in Las Vegas with $100 in my pocket, and I throw it all down on one hand, are they going to get upset? No, of course not. But the reality is I have a much better chance of winning by doing that than if I bet $10/hand.

So what. The player is entitled to want to win ('abuse the bonus' as you put it). If he breaks the rules, those rules having been explained clearly in advance, the casino can decide not to pay him, otherwise they have to pay him. 'abuse' is a nonsense word.

This is an important point . Alot of Casinos which limit the betsize ,if a bonus is included, allow loyal customers to make larger bets with their bonuses if the request it . Anyway only the minority of players will do that . If you are a player for entertaining purpose you wouldnt place bets bigger then 50 % of your bankroll because you dont want to loose your bankroll within 2 minutes .
I doubt the OP would place a 350 dollar bet with a bankroll of 500 dollars without a bonus.

I've seen it done. Walking through the casino, table shows 10 reds in a row, player puts everything on black. What is this 'entertaining purpose' - if you want to play for entertainment, you don't deposit money, you just play in free play mode.

The only reason to play for money is because you can win.

Additionally he lives in a country known for a high rate of bonus abuse .

racist.

In my point of view Betways decision is correct , because the 30 % rule was broken .

it wasn't. Five separate bets on five separate events. All five of them had a separate chance to win, lose, or push, just like making five bets one after another.

 

[daywalker]

Did the OP double down any of those $70 hands making one of the 'single bets' a $140 hand?
Seems irrelevant given what's been said I guess, I've just been caught out on this one before.

 

[thelawnet]

Did the OP double down any of those $70 hands making one of the 'single bets' a $140 hand?
Seems irrelevant given what's been said I guess, I've just been caught out on this one before.

IMO, that would then be a 'double bet'.

I think the 3cp a+p/casino hold em-type scenario, where you must place the additional bet to play is trickier, however.

 

[heador112]

In this case however, it is possible (for example) to win 2 bets, lose 2 bets, and push 1. Which is potentially no different from making 5 successive bets at $70/hand, on single-hand blackjack. It is clear that this is not one single $350 bet from this fact. If I go to the bookies, and I bet $70 on five different players scoring home runs in the course of a baseball game, each of my five bets can win or lose, and no one would suggest they are anything other than five single bets, even though the outcomes are correlated (a strong opposing pitching performance means my bets are more likely to all come off losers, just as the dealer turning over a 20 means all five blackjack bets are likely to lose also).

Well its also possible that the dealer busts and the player wins all 5 hands. Some doubles or splits may increase the bet .

The Variance is much bigger with those 5 x 70 Dollar bets then 1x 70 Dollar . The player knows that and he plays more hand to increase the expectet value of the bonus . Its not the same like a single 350 dollar bet but its obvious he wants to exploit the given bonus with one of the biggest possible variance bet .

What does this mean? If I am walking through a casino in Las Vegas with $100 in my pocket, and I throw it all down on one hand, are they going to get upset? No, of course not. But the reality is I have a much better chance of winning by doing that than if I bet $10/hand.

This is a poor comparison .

In Vegas you dont have any kind of bonus . So you will loose the long run . Note that every online casino will give you probably a Vip status if you make similar bets without a bonus . If you make it with bonus...... well they will confiscate your winnings .

If you are a card counter in vegas and make large bets during a positive count they will ask you to leave the casino .

I've seen it done. Walking through the casino, table shows 10 reds in a row, player puts everything on black. What is this 'entertaining purpose' - if you want to play for entertainment, you don't deposit money, you just play in free play mode.

The only reason to play for money is because you can win.

Its called progression


You cant compare that to online bonus play . I have alot of friend playing Roulette in landbased Casinos and nobody goes to a Casino buys chips for 1000 bet the hole amount on Black or Red and leaves the Casino after he have won or lost .

Gaming is entertainment ! And the majority of players gamble because its fun.

racist.

This is a mediocre comment . You often read "The Sun" newspaper arent you ?

it wasn't. Five separate bets on five separate events. All five of them had a separate chance to win, lose, or push, just like making five bets one after another.

This is not correct . Its la total bet of 350 and therefore against the rules .

If you play 100 hand Videopoker with a 10 bet . Its will be counted at 10 bet and not 10 cent .

The term "single bet " means nothing more then the total bet played in a single round . The player has broken this rule and Betway has confiscatet a part of his winnings . This guy is lucky he received the first part of his cashout so he shoud not complain .

 

[BigSD]

Surely 5 bets of $70 are exactly that....5 separate bets. I would only consider them to be a solitary bet if there was no way to get a different win/loss result on one bet different to the others. If the rules say there is a maximum amount you can bet per round of play then that would be different.

 

[maphesto]

Additionally he lives in a country known for a high rate of bonus abuse .

Do you really mean that you are from Germany and you think it`s a good idea to discuss what people from different regions are known for? Isn`t this called discrimination?

It doesn`t matter if a player comes from the moon or if he likes wearing red socks to his pink shoes.

Seriously, I am tired of those bonus abuse accusations against people from certain countries.

Casinos are giving away bonuses to get customers but they are afraid of advantage play.

Bonus abuse is when players start several accounts and things like that. Advantage play is NOT ABUSE.

 

[heador112]

Do you really mean that you are from Germany and you think it`s a good idea to discuss what people from different regions are known for? Isn`t this called discrimination?

It doesn`t matter if a player comes from the moon or if he likes wearing red socks to his pink shoes.

Seriously, I am tired of those bonus abuse accusations against people from certain countries.

Casinos are giving away bonuses to get customers but they are afraid of advantage play.

Bonus abuse is when players start several accounts and things like that. Advantage play is NOT ABUSE.

Yes i think its a good idea because it can help to find out if a player made just a mistake with his betting patterns or it was his purpose to exploit a promotion .


So all casino operators discriminate people because they exclude cetain countries and regions from their promotion knows for a higher rate of abuse ?

Its far away from discrimination its just business.

Before you use such words you should understand them .

"Advantage play" ?

If a player makes large bets to a high target and then starts grinding out the wager requierements to cash out as soon as possible i call it abuse .

Besides the player have broken the rules of the casino so it is indeed abuse

 

[thelawnet]

Well its also possible that the dealer busts and the player wins all 5 hands. Some doubles or splits may increase the bet .

The Variance is much bigger with those 5 x 70 Dollar bets then 1x 70 Dollar . The player knows that and he plays more hand to increase the expectet value of the bonus . Its not the same like a single 350 dollar bet but its obvious he wants to exploit the given bonus with one of the biggest possible variance bet .

The difference is very small. You can generate just as much variance by playing a couple of extra hands on single hand (at an expected cost of around 0.2% of the additional wagering, which is nothing really) as you do playing multihand. And actually by playing 5 hands @ $70, you have a risk of not having enough to cash to make all the doubles and splits, so the expected value may actually be lower.

This is a poor comparison .

In Vegas you dont have any kind of bonus . So you will loose the long run . Note that every online casino will give you probably a Vip status if you make similar bets without a bonus . If you make it with bonus...... well they will confiscate your winnings .

There are plenty of casnos that don't scrutinise your bet sizes, and have never been heard confiscating winnings.

This is a mediocre comment . You often read "The Sun" newspaper arent you ?

One national stereotype not enough for you? Am I supposed to respond with stereotypes about Germans? Give it up.

This is not correct . Its la total bet of 350 and therefore against the rules .

If you play 100 hand Videopoker with a 10 bet . Its will be counted at 10 bet and not 10 cent .

The term "single bet " means nothing more then the total bet played in a single round . The player has broken this rule and Betway has confiscatet a part of his winnings . This guy is lucky he received the first part of his cashout so he shoud not complain .

If it means 'total bet', they should write that. But they didn't.

So they have no grounds for confiscating funds.

 

[thelawnet]

So all casino operators discriminate people because they exclude cetain countries and regions from their promotion knows for a higher rate of abuse ?

Its far away from discrimination its just business.

No, you made the claim. You are not the/a casino operator are you? So you really have no idea how Russian players play, on average.

And anyway, you are attempting to rationalise a decision of discretion on the basis of the player's nationality. That is definitely discrimination. Excluding them up front is a different thing.

"Advantage play" ?

If a player makes large bets to a high target and then starts grinding out the wager requierements to cash out as soon as possible i call it abuse .

You can call it what you like, but the bottom line is the casinos have free will to offer (or not) bonuses, and needs to live with the consequences of that decision, which means paying winners (like I said, if you want 'entertainment', go play on your Nintendo, not at a casino).

Besides the player have broken the rules of the casino so it is indeed abuse

Not proven.

 

[heador112]

The difference is very small. You can generate just as much variance by playing a couple of extra hands on single hand (at an expected cost of around 0.2% of the additional wagering, which is nothing really) as you do playing multihand.

Its actually not very small . 5x 70 have a similar variance to 1x 160 . Its a big difference .

And actually by playing 5 hands @ $70, you have a risk of not having enough to cash to make all the doubles and splits, so the expected value may actually be lower.

Im sure the OP would have had decreased the betsize in this case .

There are plenty of casnos that don't scrutinise your bet sizes, and have never been heard confiscating winnings.

The number is increasing and it will increase in future too .

One national stereotype not enough for you? Am I supposed to respond with stereotypes about Germans? Give it up.

Youre the one starting with stereotypes . So what do you expect?

If it means 'total bet', they should write that. But they didn't.

So they have no grounds for confiscating funds.

Its not necessary to write that because its obvious. As i said with the Videopoker example . Imagine you make a Slot spin with 30 lines with 1 cent per line . Now take a look at Playcheck . It will state you made a 30 cent bet .

 

[Jufo]

How effective are these maximum bet limitations anyway because you could circumvent them by playing higher variance game with lower bet size to get the same advantage - for example playing video poker and doubling up wins (0% house edge!) until reaching target bankroll. There are many different ways to play to get an advantage from a bonus and the bet size limitations don't have any effect on most of these.

 

[heador112]

No, you made the claim. You are not the/a casino operator are you? So you really have no idea how Russian players play, on average.

And anyway, you are attempting to rationalise a decision of discretion on the basis of the player's nationality. That is definitely discrimination. Excluding them up front is a different thing.

Take a look at the Terms and conditions of some casino bonuses and take a look at bannend countries . You dont need to be a opeartor to know that . But you need a brain

Its just a indicator not more not less as i said in post . Is ridiculous i have to tell you that again . You dont understand the word discrimination . Youre the one who discrimates people here . Germany is a multicultural Country and there is no discrimination against foreighn countrys . There is no difference in a straight up exclusion from a opeartor and my comment . If you are not able to see that i feel sorry for you .

 

[maphesto]

Yes i think its a good idea because it can help to find out if a player made just a mistake with his betting patterns or it was his purpose to exploit a promotion .

Well, I can see the similarities with a store who have signs that says gypsies and spanish people have 10% higher price because so many of your people only buy our lower price goods or are stealing.

So all casino operators discriminate people because they exclude cetain countries and regions from their promotion knows for a higher rate of abuse ?

Its far away from discrimination its just business.

It`s of course both business and discrimination. Yes, the casinos who say people from China, Sweden and Italy are not allowed to have any free money or bonuses over 20% discriminate people. They do it for a reason, they want to earn money.

The easy way for many rogue casinos is to give away a lot of bonuses to have more customers. The risk they take is that some customers use (don`t ABUSE) their bonus to gain advantage. The rogue casinos then removes regions from their bonus offers, they are then of course discriminating people from those regions.

.
Before you use such words you should understand them .

I do believe that you don`t know the difference between race discrimination and discrimination.

You can discriminate people in a lot of ways. Male/female, rich/poor and russians/germans. I hope you understand.

"Advantage play" ?
If a player makes large bets to a high target and then starts grinding out the wager requierements to cash out as soon as possible i call it abuse .

I call it advantage play as long as the player doesn`t break the rules.
Many of the rogue casinos have removed regions for abuse when they mean many people from your region have managed to cash out real money from free chips.

Besides the player have broken the rules of the casino so it is indeed abuse

According to the casino!

In this particular case it`s a bit tricky. Did he break the rules or not?
I am surprised that he was allowed to play BJ with the bonus at all.

He actually placed 5 different bets. I understand those who think that you can call it a single bet also because it was in one round.

 

[heador112]

How effective are these maximum bet limitations anyway because you could circumvent them by playing higher variance game with lower bet size to get the same advantage - for example playing video poker and doubling up wins (0% house edge!) until reaching target bankroll. There are many different ways to play to get an advantage from a bonus and the bet size limitations don't have any effect on most of these.

Sooner or later they will close all loopholes.

 

[Jufo]

Sooner or later they will close all loopholes.

Perhaps it would be simpler to stop offering bonuses they can't afford to offer instead

 

[maphesto]

Sooner or later they will close all loopholes.

Yes! And then they have to find new customers in other ways. Like better software, better support staff, quicker payments and other things.

The casinos have to compare in a more serious way, like 3Dice have done with the chat system/community/screenshots etc.

 

[heador112]

The easy way for many rogue casinos is to give away a lot of bonuses to have more customers. The risk they take is that some customers use (don`t ABUSE) their bonus to gain advantage. The rogue casinos then removes regions from their bonus offers, they are then of course discriminating people from those regions.

I dont agree . This is no discrimination . I dont feel discriminatet if my Country is excluded in a Casino .This is ridicilous .......

I do believe that you don`t know the difference between race discrimination and discrimination.

You can discriminate people in a lot of ways. Male/female, rich/poor and russians/germans. I hope you understand.

Its something completely different then beeing country bannend in a online casinos .Come on this is a Casino if you dont like it dont play there
I hope you understand .

 

[maphesto]

I dont feel discriminatet if my Country is excluded in a Casino .

Would you feel discriminated if you had to pay a higher price at the mall just because you are from Germany? It`s the same thing.

Come on this is a Casino if you dont like it dont play there

They still treat their customers different if they have country rules based on other customers winnings. If it`s ok at casinos it soon is ok at stores. They are both selling things. The casino sells entertainment and gambling an stores are selling milk, bread and lottery tickets.

Hey! Your lottery ticket is 50c more expensive because you have red shoes. Other people with red shoes have won a lot lately..

 

[dancinggoon]

just to add a little offtopic "discrimination", it looks like heador112 is the best example for a typical german smartass with too much freetime or other small things..

 

[jackieonweb]

Clearly these are 5 separate bets.

Another case of a Casino using their ambiguous terms to get out of paying their winners.

 

[thelawnet]

Its actually not very small . 5x 70 have a similar variance to 1x 160 . Its a big difference .

That is not a very good analogy. It is better to wager 1 * $160 than 5 * $70, because in the former case the expected loss is only the house advantage * $160, whereas in the latter case it is the house advantage times $350.

The bottom line is that you can generate exactly the same amount of variance by betting single-hand as you can multi-hand, you just need to play more hands. The significance of that is fairly minor, when you consider that the expected loss is close to zero either way you look at it.

The player could have made that even closer to zero by playing video poker (which has higher variance), or a different blackjack game with lower house edge.

Im sure the OP would have had decreased the betsize in this case .

If he placed 5 $70 bets first-up, then he was already taking a risk that benefited the house, given that his balance was only enough for two additional bets.

The number is increasing and it will increase in future too .

Nonethless there are large casinos that have a sufficient mass of players not to worry about this. I don't see any such terms at the major UK-facing casinos.

Youre the one starting with stereotypes . So what do you expect?

I think you are confusing me with you. You said (in not so many words) 'he is Russian, they are all bonuys abusers', I pointed out that this is a stereotype, and then you followed this up with a stupid comment about The Sun.

Its not necessary to write that because its obvious. As i said with the Videopoker example . Imagine you make a Slot spin with 30 lines with 1 cent per line . Now take a look at Playcheck . It will state you made a 30 cent bet .

Why confuse things, when the player didn't play video poker or slots, he played blackjack? As a matter of fact if you play multi-hand video poker at playtech, each hand is considered separately in playcheck. Slots are different again because there is often some sense of state (free spins will re-trigger at a different level).

There is plenty of evidence that multi-hand blackjack is different from other games - a casino offering multi-hand video poker will set lower coin sizes for players playing more hands, on roulette it is common to set the maximum bet for the sum of all bets on the table, but on multi-hand blackjack each hand is separate, and optional - you can participate in as many hands as you like, and bet max bet on each one (if your balance is sufficient).

 

[jackieonweb]

I think you are confusing me with you.

Classic

You are right by the way, there's hardly any advantage in doing it this way over separate rounds.

All this stuff about being a 'bonus abuser' and his country having a bad rep crap. You either break terms or you don't. In my opinion the OP hasn't as i'm sure most people would agree that different positions on a BJ table are separate bets.

 

[heador112]

just to add a little offtopic "discrimination", it looks like heador112 is the best example for a typical german smartass with too much freetime or other small things..

Wow thats a useful post for this topic . Well its better to be a smartass then dumb f*ck like you .


Playing at betway was always a great experience and i have won in total more then 12.000 Dollars there and was paid without any problems . All my cahsouts were processed within 48 hours (excluding weekends ) . .


@thelawnet

I will to waste my time for you so i make it short :

That is not a very good analogy. It is better to wager 1 * $160 than 5 * $70, because in the former case the expected loss is only the house advantage * $160, whereas in the latter case it is the house advantage times $350.

The bottom line is that you can generate exactly the same amount of variance by betting single-hand as you can multi-hand, you just need to play more hands. The significance of that is fairly minor, when you consider that the expected loss is close to zero either way you look at it.

The player could have made that even closer to zero by playing video poker (which has higher variance), or a different blackjack game with lower house edge.

I dont agree . The player placed in a single round a 350 dollar bet and therefore violatet the terms and conditions .

Nonethless there are large casinos that have a sufficient mass of players not to worry about this. I don't see any such terms at the major UK-facing casinos.

The UK has alot of bonus abuser and fraudster communities thats why alot of Casinos exclude them . Note that even UK forced Casinos have changed rules in the past 32Red for example made excluded a Blackjackversion relatet to a high rate of bonus abuse and limited the betsize during bonus play .

Its just logical that the industry have to change promotionstructures to limit the number of abusing players .

Why confuse things, when the player didn't play video poker or slots, he played blackjack? As a matter of fact if you play multi-hand video poker at playtech, each hand is considered separately in playcheck. Slots are different again because there is often some sense of state (free spins will re-trigger at a different level).

There is plenty of evidence that multi-hand blackjack is different from other games - a casino offering multi-hand video poker will set lower coin sizes for players playing more hands, on roulette it is common to set the maximum bet for the sum of all bets on the table, but on multi-hand blackjack each hand is separate, and optional - you can participate in as many hands as you like, and bet max bet on each one (if your balance is sufficient).

I think you are confusing me with you. You said (in not so many words) 'he is Russian, they are all bonuys abusers', I pointed out that this is a stereotype, and then you followed this up with a stupid comment about The Sun.

I didnt say that if you are not able to see that its your problem not mine . You may think about your first comment why i made this comment .


Finally i can say that Betway is a reputable place if you dont break any rules . Well if your main purpose is to exploit online gaming promotions its probaly not the best place

 

[jackieonweb]

You keep on talking about exploiting casinos etc but the fact is this customer has not exploited anything as they have followed the rules. Betway should not have ambiguous terms too, they are in the wrong.

Also you seem more like the dumb fuck if you gamble thousands dollars

 

[The Dude]

just to add a little offtopic "discrimination", it looks like heador112 is the best example for a typical german smartass with too much freetime or other small things..

Wow thats a useful post for this topic . Well its better to be a smartass then dumb f*ck like you ....

...Also you seem more like the dumb fuck if you gamble thousands dollars

Please keep the acerbic comments as internal dialogue. If this continues, I won't be happy and I'll start handing out free passes to the detention area.

Please be mellow - thank you.

First and last warning.

 

[thelawnet]

Wow thats a useful post for this topic . Well its better to be a smartass then dumb f*ck like you .


Playing at betway was always a great experience and i have won in total more then 12.000 Dollars there and was paid without any problems . All my cahsouts were processed within 48 hours (excluding weekends ) . .


@thelawnet

I will to waste my time for you so i make it short :

I dont agree . The player placed in a single round a 350 dollar bet and therefore violatet the terms and conditions .

In a single round 5 $70 bets. Not a $350 bet. He bet on five separate events - there can be no argument about that. In a single round yes, but that is not what the wording says.

The UK has alot of bonus abuser and fraudster communities thats why alot of Casinos exclude them . Note that even UK forced Casinos have changed rules in the past 32Red for example made excluded a Blackjackversion relatet to a high rate of bonus abuse and limited the betsize during bonus play .

Its just logical that the industry have to change promotionstructures to limit the number of abusing players .

???

You've completely missed my point. Some of the largest, most successful casinos, such as Ladbrokes are FOCUSED on the UK, and they don't bother with these terms, and you don't hear about them getting into disputes about the ambiguous meaning of their terms.

Finally i can say that Betway is a reputable place if you dont break any rules . Well if your main purpose is to exploit online gaming promotions its probaly not the best place

Maybe. But like I said, there are plenty of large successful casinos that simply don't have these kind of rules to break. A really reputable casino makes it so that it is not possible for the player to accidentally break the rules in this way.

 

[dancinggoon]

The problem in this case is the vague wording of Betways T&C and their loosely interpretation on a case by case basis.

The main question is clearly, why does Betway use such vague T&Cs and why are the not preventing too big bets by adjusted tablelimits for bonus users, as setting tablelimits its a simple feature of the microgaming software?

The answer is easy, they want to have a little joker to void some of the bigger winners, increasing their revenue through the backdoor.

The bonus Terms of a casino should have no room for any kind of interpretation that may lead to the confisciation of winnings. If a casino deliberately uses such vague terms to void winnings, it is clearly a rogue behaviour and should be penalised. If a casino has succes with this kind vague terms, other casinos will follow shortly!

Playing at betway was always a great experience and i have won in total more then 12.000 Dollars there and was paid without any problems . All my cahsouts were processed within 48 hours (excluding weekends ) . .

You should consider to withdrawl the money to your bank account, it would be a shame if you loose it back too quickly, as it looks like you have a very compulsive personality...

 

[vinylweatherman]

In a single round 5 $70 bets. Not a $350 bet. He bet on five separate events - there can be no argument about that. In a single round yes, but that is not what the wording says.



???

You've completely missed my point. Some of the largest, most successful casinos, such as Ladbrokes are FOCUSED on the UK, and they don't bother with these terms, and you don't hear about them getting into disputes about the ambiguous meaning of their terms.



Maybe. But like I said, there are plenty of large successful casinos that simply don't have these kind of rules to break. A really reputable casino makes it so that it is not possible for the player to accidentally break the rules in this way.

Not so, unfortunately. They have introduced such a term by using a sneaky "back door" method. Neteller deposits now either do not qualify for promotions, or have to be wagered TWENTY TIMES more than other deposits in order to qualify. Neteller is primarily a UK and Europe facing web wallet, since they do NOT take customers from either of the two main online gambling markets, Canada and the US. Neteller also block quite a few other countries from using them for gambling transactions.

It seems that too many casinos are taking the lazy option, even though there ARE tools available to prevent what they see as "abuse". Betway, for example, could simply have used the software feature that limits bets whilst a bonus is in play, and set a max of 10 chips (50 total) per position on multi-hand blackjack. The OP could never have made this 70 chip per position bet in the first place, even though the terms were ambiguous enough to suggest it was allowed.

Reputable casinos should be using EVERYTHING at their disposal to PREVENT breaches and manipulations of promotions, and NOT relying on their power to confiscate winnings after the fact "by management decision".

Players should have software that makes it IMPOSSIBLE to place bets outside of those allowed for a particular promotion. This should have been implemented long ago, considering that promotions have played such a MAJOR part in online gambling since the very beginning.

 

[alfrema7]

Do you really mean that you are from Germany and you think it`s a good idea to discuss what people from different regions are known for? Isn`t this called discrimination?

Yes i think its a good idea because it can help to find out if a player made just a mistake with his betting patterns or it was his purpose to exploit a promotion .

I think that this statement of yours is definitely a racist statement. So you want to say that if the russian gambler and the german gambler play the same betting pattern then ,according to your racist logic ,the russian has more chances to be accused of bonus abuse than the german? Just because he is russian? Using some analogy, if the russian and the german are caught shoplifting then you ,as a racist judge, will put the russian in the jail for a couple of years and will let the german go home stating that he has just made a mistake.