Winner Casino is not paying. Who played recently?

[jetset]

It seems to me that this cannot be a fair solution for players who were winners, and after reading thelawnet's comment above on the technical possibilities I think the casino owes a more detailed explanation for their actions....that is if they want to hold on to their players, who by now must be thoroughly alarmed.

Exactly what sort of glitch was this? Is this sort of event covered in the T&Cs?

If it is a software fault, they are going to have to do an awful lot more than this to convince the players that they are offering fair and safe gambling.

 

[jetset]

I've just been re-reading Werner's initiating post on this thread, and in particular the first notifications that these casinos sent to players. Here is what they said:

QUOTE: During the period of March 10th to March 14th new software elements were implemented to our new game engine.

Few days after launching the new software we noticed that the Black Jack game engine was damaged during the implementation and all players of the Black Jack game were given significant advantage over the house, resulting in unfair results for the house.

As an immediate solution, the game engine was repaired on March 21st .

According to the terms and conditions you agreed upon installing the software, We will reverse the activity recorded between March 14th to March 21st .UNQUOTE

I'm assuming that in terms of the T&C's players are SOL if the casino claims there was a software malfunction, which is what they seem to be doing here. But is this unilateral and unsupported claim enough to convince players?

The operator here should bear in mind that limiting the damage caused to the casino by this glitch may be a short term solution with the T&Cs on his or her side....but this is going to cost them bigtime going forward in terms of lost business and a bad rep.

 

[thelawnet]

I've just been re-reading Werner's initiating post on this thread, and in particular the first notifications that these casinos sent to players. Here is what they said:

QUOTE: During the period of March 10th to March 14th new software elements were implemented to our new game engine.

Few days after launching the new software we noticed that the Black Jack game engine was damaged during the implementation and all players of the Black Jack game were given significant advantage over the house, resulting in unfair results for the house.

As an immediate solution, the game engine was repaired on March 21st .

According to the terms and conditions you agreed upon installing the software, We will reverse the activity recorded between March 14th to March 21st .UNQUOTE

I'm assuming that in terms of the T&C's players are SOL if the casino claims there was a software malfunction, which is what they seem to be doing here. But is this unilateral and unsupported claim enough to convince players?

The operator here should bear in mind that limiting the damage caused to the casino by this glitch may be a short term solution with the T&Cs on his or her side....but this is going to cost them bigtime going forward in terms of lost business and a bad rep.

They really need to give an explanation as to what 'unfair advantage against the house' means. Let's not forget that they set up the ****ing casino. They make the rules. Nobody complains when they go and play keno or blackjack or slots that the casino has an 'unfair advantage against the player' (which they do, 365 days a year). There doesn't seem to be any suggestion that anyone was exploiting their software.

What does this advantage amount to? Did they stick on soft 17 instead of hitting? Use 1 deck instead of 8? All of these things would reduce the player edge, or if the rules are good enough then the player might have a small advantage. They need to say what was wrong and how much of a % advantage they have.

At the moment it looks like a crappy casino where they 'set' the payout of their table games to whatever percentage they like, and on this occasion set it too high - and this is something that just isn't possible unless your casino is crooked.

 

[kenneth2816]

Imagine a land based casino contacting BJ winners days later asking for their money back because it was determined that the dealer was Bi Polar and failed to take his meds that day, thus giving the player a decided and unfair advantage over the house...................

 

[Linus]

What difference does it make what the T&C says?

Don't most (all?) casinos have say "we can do whatever we want" in their T&Cs?

If a player says, "Hey, I was drunk," does he get his money back?

What about, "I had a spasm in my hand and clicked the wrong button"?

It's unbelievable a casino could think they could get away with this.

 

[wernerw]

I also received an additional Email containing a 25$ amazon voucher telling me that I can restart playing my Bonus or withdraw the money if I want.

Of course this does not satisfy me and of course I think this solution is not fair (but maybe I am not really objective on this).

I reread the T&C and did not find anything that would allow them to act as they did (but then, I am not a lawyer).

I am not 100% sure, but I did not notice any obvious malfunction in the software (such as wrong payout, wrong calculations etc.). The only thing was that after going down to (do not remember exactly) 10 from 285 I went up again so I could withdraw 600, but I was not flatbetting.

I still feel they stole me the money and if this is the final solution I will not play there but get my money out (if they give it to me).

About the software problem they were talking (I am an IT guy, too), I was thinking what it could have been. I agree partly with other posters. If the game is fair I do not see an easy way how this could happen.

Maybe they changed the SNG calculation. It there was a bug what could help the players? More face cards?

More likely they have a feature to modify the distribution of cards, allowing them to deal more lower cards, giving the casino an advantage. But of course we do not know and probably they will not tell us.

Is the CM statement a final one?

 

[winbig]

I've been in touch with the operators, and they've told me that all acounts of players who participated in this game were reset.

As of now, all players that played in either casino during this time have had their account balances reset to the amount of their initial deposit plus any relevant bonuses, regardless if they won or lost. The funds are now back in their casino account and they may cash out their deposits or stay and play.

I'm sure there were plenty of players that weren't affected by this (by not playing blackjack). Did they reset their balances also? Would be interesting to know...

In a perfect world they'd be regulated, and forced to show actual PROOF of this "error". Maybe they took a huge hit during that week and didn't feel like paying out?

 

[Casinomeister]

Here is the email that explains a bit more on what happened:

In regards to the situation at hand, please allow me to briefly explain what has happened.

We replaced the hosting facilities for both winner.com and casinoforaces.com.
Both casinos were down for a few days while this transfer was made.

During the transfer the blackjack game engine code was partially corrupted and even though we tested it many times before re-launching, unfortunately, the corrupted code was only revealed to us only after the launch.

As of now, all players that played in either casino during this time have had their account balances reset to the amount of their initial deposit plus any relevant bonuses, regardless if they won or lost. The funds are now back in their casino account and they may cash out their deposits or stay and play.

 

[winbig]

We replaced the hosting facilities for both winner.com and casinoforaces.com.
Both casinos were down for a few days while this transfer was made.

During the transfer the blackjack game engine code was partially corrupted and even though we tested it many times before re-launching, unfortunately, the corrupted code was only revealed to us only after the launch.

This is such a vague and fishy response from them. I'm assuming that they reset every single player's balance judging by that email. Their reason, to me, is a crock. The only way the code could be "corrupted" is if they changed it...but yet the reason they give doesn't even say anything about changing code. It just says they changed hosting companies. I've worked for 2 different ISP's in the past, and trust me, if something's broken, it's broken. No "weird results" as they're claiming.

If the files themselves were corrupted, the game would give off errors. Even if they used new machines and recompiled the code on them, numbers just don't change. Again, if the files were corrupted, they would have known it well before they put it live...And again, if there was such a player advantage, how could they NOT notice it (if in fact they tested it)? How many hands did they play to test it? 10?

Point of the matter is that sole fact. They either changed the code and don't want to admit it, or as I was thinking before, they took some unusually big hits and didn't want to eat the losses.

[edit] Lest we not forget the fact that they have no clause for "Malfunctions" in their T&C. In the business world, you never assume sh**. If it's not in writing, then your bad, not the players. Pay up and change the T&C to cover your asses.

 

[jetset]

QUOTE[edit] Lest we not forget the fact that they have no clause for "Malfunctions" in their T&C. In the business world, you never assume sh**. If it's not in writing, then your bad, not the players. Pay up and change the T&C to cover your asses.UNQUOTE

Holy moley - that does make a major difference!

 

[Casinomeister]

I would say malfunctions and voiding winnings are covered here:

4. LICENCE TO USE SOFTWARE

4.4 WE DO NOT WARRANT THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL BE NON-INFRINGING OR THAT THE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE ERROR FREE OR UNINTERRUPTED OR THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE SOFTWARE WILL BE CORRECTED, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE OR THE SERVERS ARE VIRUS-FREE. IN THE EVENT OF COMMUNICATIONS OR SYSTEM ERRORS OCCURING IN CONNECTION WITH THE SETTELMENT OF ACCOUNTS OR OTHER FEATURES OR COMPONENTS OF THE SOFTWARE NIETHER US NOR OUR SOFTWARE PROVIDER WILL BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY COSTS, EXPENSES, LOSSES OR CLAIMS ARISING RESULTING FROM SUCH ERRORS. WE FURTHER RESERVE THE RIGHT IN THE EVENT OF SUCH ERRORS TO REMOVE ALL RELEVANT GAMES FROM THE SOFTWARE AND THE WEBSITE AND TAKE ANY OTHER ACTION TO CORRECT SUCH ERRORS

and further...

9. RESERVATION OF RIGHTS

9.1 We reserve, at our sole discretion, the right to:
9.1.2 refuse to accept any wager on the Online Casino;

9.3 In the event of any dispute regarding a wager or winnings, our decision will be final and binding.

These are the terms and conditions one agrees to when the software is downloaded. These are also the same terms and conditions most casinos use - in fact these are identical to Playtech's. Must have the same lawyers

 

[Pinababy69]

Well, I think it stinks. Absolutely no different than Playtech voiding winnings due to "bonus abuse", or the whole Joyland mess - blaming that on a technical glitch, when in actuality it was more likely a programming/human error (setting the comp points rate incorrectly). They've certainly covered their asses, let this serve as a warning to anyone who may consider playing there.........DON'T!!!! RUN!!!!!

Any casino that voids winnings using the catch-all phrase of "technical glitch" is a bad actor in my book. How many days did it take them to notice this? How's this scenario? "Oops, suffered a technical glitch while depositing my hard-earned money....only meant to deposit $50, not $500, the zero on my keyboard must have stuck without me noticing it. Yeah, it took me a week or so to realize what had happened. I'll just get my bank to put a stop payment on that cheque before it actually goes through. Well, I know I played the $500 in credits but so what? I didn't win and see absolutely no reason to pay you the whole amount when I obviously made an error." Please. Sounds to me like they got hit hard that particular week, and were looking for a way out. So what are they saying? That the RNG was damaged, or in this case card generator? I'm no programmer, so someone explain it to in layman's terms.

Sorry CM, I know there's not much you can do given the above T & C's but it still stinks.

 

[winbig]

These are the terms and conditions one agrees to when the software is downloaded. These are also the same terms and conditions most casinos use - in fact these are identical to Playtech's. Must have the same lawyers

thanks, musta missed it. That still doesn't give them the right to reset players winnings that weren't even affected by not playing blackjack. If you ask me, that's total bulsh**.

Funny about the T&C being identical to playtech's....ought to make 'em aware of this and go after them for copyright infringement if they want

 

[caruso]

I would say malfunctions and voiding winnings are covered here:

4.
9.1 We reserve, at our sole discretion, the right to:

9.3 In the event of any dispute regarding a wager or winnings, our decision will be final and binding.

These are the terms and conditions one agrees to when the software is downloaded. These are also the same terms and conditions most casinos use - in fact these are identical to Playtech's. Must have the same lawyers

You must be kidding! These are the terms that **watches words carefully** casinos-which-don't-rank-at-the-very-tippity-top-for-stellar-performance-and-general-player-satisfaction use to disallow winnings. We all know, and have for a long time, that this clause is disregardable as it applies to casinos which DON'T fall into the above bracket. If and when such a casino were to unjustly apply it, into that bracket will they go.

You will never see an honest casino unfairly implementing that term. Something is clearly up here.

 

[schankwart]

I would say malfunctions and voiding winnings are covered here:

4. LICENCE TO USE SOFTWARE

4.4 WE DO NOT WARRANT THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL BE NON-INFRINGING OR THAT THE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE ERROR FREE OR UNINTERRUPTED OR THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE SOFTWARE WILL BE CORRECTED, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE OR THE SERVERS ARE VIRUS-FREE. IN THE EVENT OF COMMUNICATIONS OR SYSTEM ERRORS OCCURING IN CONNECTION WITH THE SETTELMENT OF ACCOUNTS OR OTHER FEATURES OR COMPONENTS OF THE SOFTWARE NIETHER US NOR OUR SOFTWARE PROVIDER WILL BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY COSTS, EXPENSES, LOSSES OR CLAIMS ARISING RESULTING FROM SUCH ERRORS. WE FURTHER RESERVE THE RIGHT IN THE EVENT OF SUCH ERRORS TO REMOVE ALL RELEVANT GAMES FROM THE SOFTWARE AND THE WEBSITE AND TAKE ANY OTHER ACTION TO CORRECT SUCH ERRORS

and further...

9. RESERVATION OF RIGHTS

9.1 We reserve, at our sole discretion, the right to:
9.1.2 refuse to accept any wager on the Online Casino;

9.3 In the event of any dispute regarding a wager or winnings, our decision will be final and binding.

These are the terms and conditions one agrees to when the software is downloaded. These are also the same terms and conditions most casinos use - in fact these are identical to Playtech's. Must have the same lawyers

C'mon Bryan.... I can hardly recall a Casino out there that does not have terms that sounds any different than these. Basically any outfit out there does have similar words to back themselves up with, but it is obviously only the evil ones that do abuse them. -Usually in order to cover their butts after withholding a player's "unlawful" winnings.

 

[Casinomeister]

thanks, musta missed it. That still doesn't give them the right to reset players winnings that weren't even affected by not playing blackjack. If you ask me, that's total bulsh**.

Funny about the T&C being identical to playtech's....ought to make 'em aware of this and go after them for copyright infringement if they want

They probably are using this with permission since these casinos are operated/managed by people who have been heavily involved in some of the major Playtech operations a few years ago.

As far as I know, only the players who played blackjack were affected by this. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Zoozie]

As a software enginer I have a VERY hard time understanding how a server-side software error in this case (BJ) could be blamed.

A good example when a software error can be blamed is in case of
a wrong 'weighting' (mapping from RNG to event actually) of typical 3-reels slots. This could happen at new games or changing of paytables. Actually this is a configuration error and not a software error.

In the case of BJ (or VP or dice-games) there is no weighting involved, since these games must simulate the real world by law( though some fruit-slots, pub-slots excluded).

In this case the RNG was spitting out apparently random numbers, but yet still they claim it did not. So the RNG was still random, but not random 'enough'?

Anyone have a good tecnical explanation?

 

[dresden]

CM, can you press them for a detailed and technical explanation? It seems everyone with knowledge of programming is highly doubtful of the casino's statement.

It would seem that if they want to salvage themselves they would be forthcoming with such an explanation if one were legitimate.

 

[Casinomeister]

CM, can you press them for a detailed and technical explanation? It seems everyone with knowledge of programming is highly doubtful of the casino's statement.

Yeah, as soon as I finish yesterday's newsletter and get this week's news up online, I'll be contacting them to see if they can provide a better explanation. I'll also make some suggestions on how to handle this.

 

[winbig]

As far as I know, only the players who played blackjack were affected by this. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I would hope so. Please let us know when/if you get a more detailed explanation. What if those same players that played blackjack also won money from other games? I for one would be super pi$$ed if I had hit at slots or vp for 4-5 figures, just to have it voided because I played a few hands of blackjack.


Seems to me they should have simply shut the casino down, audited every single account, and adjusted balances accordingly. Sure it would have taken more time, but would have avoided this PR nightmare they're stuck with now. Also, players would have been more than happy to know they were on the ball with things.

 

[hermanikann]

Ohh No

Oh no I also received the mail. I cashed out 1200 Euro and left the 185 in my account. I did only play BJ. I do not belive this. This is not fair. I hope CM can talk some sense into them.

 

[caruso]

They probably are using this with permission since these casinos are operated/managed by people who have been heavily involved in some of the major Playtech operations a few years ago.

Truly, I would never have believed this.

 

[wernerw]

I would say malfunctions and voiding winnings are covered here:

4. LICENCE TO USE SOFTWARE

4.4 WE DO NOT WARRANT THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL BE NON-INFRINGING OR THAT THE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE ERROR FREE OR UNINTERRUPTED OR THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE SOFTWARE WILL BE CORRECTED, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE OR THE SERVERS ARE VIRUS-FREE. IN THE EVENT OF COMMUNICATIONS OR SYSTEM ERRORS OCCURING IN CONNECTION WITH THE SETTELMENT OF ACCOUNTS OR OTHER FEATURES OR COMPONENTS OF THE SOFTWARE NIETHER US NOR OUR SOFTWARE PROVIDER WILL BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY COSTS, EXPENSES, LOSSES OR CLAIMS ARISING RESULTING FROM SUCH ERRORS. WE FURTHER RESERVE THE RIGHT IN THE EVENT OF SUCH ERRORS TO REMOVE ALL RELEVANT GAMES FROM THE SOFTWARE AND THE WEBSITE AND TAKE ANY OTHER ACTION TO CORRECT SUCH ERRORS

and further...

9. RESERVATION OF RIGHTS

9.1 We reserve, at our sole discretion, the right to:
9.1.2 refuse to accept any wager on the Online Casino;

9.3 In the event of any dispute regarding a wager or winnings, our decision will be final and binding.

These are the terms and conditions one agrees to when the software is downloaded. These are also the same terms and conditions most casinos use - in fact these are identical to Playtech's. Must have the same lawyers

Sorry, but I think these terms do NOT allow them to do what they did.

First they say that they do not warrant that the software is error free. Good. I accept. So what?

Then they are talking about communication and/or system errors. Technically speaking neither occurred. They now are talking about a software bug. This is not a system error that occurred. A system error is something like a crash.

But still if you would interpret what happened as a "system error", they reserved the right to
- remove affected games (which they did not)
- take any action to correct the error (which they did after a week, but which has absolutely nothing to do with not paying out).

9.1.2 says that they may refuse any bet. Good. No problem. But they accepted my bets.

and 9.3. Come on guys, no court in the world would accept such a thing in a contract. What it means is: And anyway, if we want to fxxx you we fxxx you.

So 9.3 is the only point that is valid in this case. We were fxxxed

 

[winbig]

You know, another angle on this is on the date (or right before) they sent this email out, their databases were corrupted, leaving them with only a backup from the date of the "transition"...reverting everyone's balance back to that date

Never know...

 

[Zoozie]

Since it was only BJ that seems to be a problem, was there a really obvious mistake with the paytable? (that could give the player the advantage they claimed).

Since other games seems have worked,they will have a hard time blaming it on the RNG (and other server side errors).

No matter what they should have informed the players excacly was wrong, noone will accept:
UPS, there was a software malfunction, all winnings are void. Have a nice day.