Think slots are rigged? Read this first...

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Please send me the YouTube link.

Just sent you link

 

[trancemonkey]

If you read my post again I stated I know of a company that used it in the past. I never said at this moment in time. Therefore I can’t state for sure that they do now. Only surmise that it’s highly likely. The reason I won’t go into more depth publicly is that due to the complexity of how I got this information they would immediately know who I am. I like to sleep at night if you know what I mean. You obviously don’t have to believe a word I say. Why would you? There does seem to be a little bit of double standards here though @trancemonkey as in we are expected to believe everything you say (and I believe you are genuine) but you make statements defending the randomness of slots as if you are speaking on behalf of the entire industry then by your own admission state that there is rigged software out there and you can’t speak for everyone. The problem for us then is we don’t know who’s “at it” and who isn’t. Still waiting for a reply on the millionaire question.

I think you'll find that I've always stated that I can only speak for companies I've worked for, or those that I know of or know employees of. Which is a lot of companies. I have never, ever stated that every single company in the world is whiter than white. What I can say though is that all the points in this thread (first post) are facts and questions you should consider.

Also, you state you know of one company that did. But most of the threads on here state that ALL slots are rigged and we all somehow work together to rig everything. So even if you could prove one did (and I have knowledge of stuff in the past too... before we became highly regulated), it doesn't mean all are.

 

[snorky510238]

I think you'll find that I've always stated that I can only speak for companies I've worked for, or those that I know of or know employees of. Which is a lot of companies. I have never, ever stated that every single company in the world is whiter than white. What I can say though is that all the points in this thread (first post) are facts and questions you should consider.

Also, you state you know of one company that did. But most of the threads on here state that ALL slots are rigged and we all somehow work together to rig everything. So even if you could prove one did (and I have knowledge of stuff in the past too... before we became highly regulated), it doesn't mean all are.

So you are as good as saying before it became highly regulated there may have been a lot more providers “at it”. At least that how it reads. I still await the answer to the millionaire question if you could shed any light please.

 

[Gaz237]

By the way trance any explanation for the randomness of the answer always being the highest percentage when you choose to walk away on millionaire?

It would be great if you could shed some light on this please TM.

I guess it's allowed, but it should not be.

 

[CasinoNinja]

It would be great if you could shed some light on this please TM.

I guess it's allowed, but it should not be.

I am pretty sure I have walked away, and it was not the highest percentage answer that was correct. So I highly doubt that this is the case everytime. But ofcourse it should be most likely, as you have the highest percentage.

I like to think of the millionaire gamble like a pie gamble. Say it was 80% chance of winning, the wheel would spin in the background and either hit green which would be the majority of the pie, or red which would be 20% of it. 60% win chance is equal to extra chili on the higher levels. You can still lose easily.

 

[Siohmy]

With WWTBAM I’d suspect that when you walk away it doesn’t bother playing out the gamble as if you’d carried on. Would explain the high level, if not 100%, highest %age is correct when you do. If this is the case, it is a bit shady as it does imply you should have gone with the highest %age answer. Maybe BTG could clarify. Not played it enough, or maybe walked away enough , to know how prevelant this is.

 

[trancemonkey]

So you are as good as saying before it became highly regulated there may have been a lot more providers “at it”. At least that how it reads. I still await the answer to the millionaire question if you could shed any light please.

You can read it how you want...

And as for millionaire, I've seen ones that aren't the top one be the answer. But seeing as the biggest percentage is the most likely, it's not surprising really is it.

 

[snorky510238]

I have walked away dozens of times and it has always without fail been the highest percentage even when it’s marginal like 28%. This is of course nowhere near in line with the dreaded 83% which is wrong most of the time.

 

[xexe]

IF they were rigged, it wouldn't be in a lower-the-RTP way, it would be in a keep-customers-playing way. Like making them very streaky to make it more possible to win and lose rather than just slowly bleeding away. On a loss streak? Luck's due any time now. On a win streak? This slot is awesome, I gotta keep playing it. On a loss streak after the win streak on that slot? I just gotta hit that sick bonus streak I got last time, it'll make up for everything! Any second now..

Do I think it's like this? Not really (except for quickspin jk). I'm aware that randomness would cause streakiness naturally. But IF they were to be rigged, I think it would be in a way that could literally not possibly be traced; not by straight up lowering the RTP in the age of slottrackers. I also don't buy the disgruntled employee argument, it's not like there are millions of slot-programmers out there. And out of the few there are, even fewer would probably specialize in rigging them. And they'd probably have to sign NDAs. I'll emphasize once more though that I don't really believe they are rigged in any way, but I also don't exclude the idea that some of them could be.

 

[trancemonkey]

IF they were rigged, it wouldn't be in a lower-the-RTP way, it would be in a keep-customers-playing way. Like making them very streaky to make it more possible to win and lose rather than just slowly bleeding away. On a loss streak? Luck's due any time now. On a win streak? This slot is awesome, I gotta keep playing it. On a loss streak after the win streak on that slot? I just gotta hit that sick bonus streak I got last time, it'll make up for everything! Any second now..

Do I think it's like this? Not really (except for quickspin jk). I'm aware that randomness would cause streakiness naturally. But IF they were to be rigged, I think it would be in a way that could literally not possibly be traced; not by straight up lowering the RTP in the age of slottrackers. I also don't buy the disgruntled employee argument, it's not like there are millions of slot-programmers out there. And out of the few there are, even fewer would probably specialize in rigging them. And they'd probably have to sign NDAs. I'll emphasize once more though that I don't really believe they are rigged in any way, but I also don't exclude the idea that some of them could be.

You can't sign an NDA that stops you whistleblowing someone breaking the law... so that's just not a valid argument. Do you think that would stand up in court? "Yes Judge, i knew what they were doing was illegal, but i'd signed an NDA so i couldn't tell the UKGC or the police". It still amazes me that people honestly believe that a contract can overrule law.

Also, clearly you don't understand how many software engineers are employed in our industry - the gambling industry is huge.

 

[xexe]

You can't sign an NDA that stops you whistleblowing someone breaking the law... so that's just not a valid argument. Do you think that would stand up in court? "Yes Judge, i knew what they were doing was illegal, but i'd signed an NDA so i couldn't tell the UKGC or the police". It still amazes me that people honestly believe that a contract can overrule law.

Tell that to Manning, Assange or Snowden. Jokes aside, scratch the NDA part then. Replace it with the fact that they would've been breaking the law themselves by programming rigged slots and wouldn't want to destroy their own life due to being... disgruntled?

Also, clearly you don't understand how many software engineers are employed in our industry - the gambling industry is huge.

Yeah but not very many of them would work specifically with slot RNG. And out of the ones that do, an even smaller part would in that case work with rigging them.

Why are you so aggressive & defensive about this anyway? It's not like either of us know for sure so chill out.

 

[trancemonkey]

Yeah but not very many of them would work specifically with slot RNG. And out of the ones that do, an even smaller part would in that case work with rigging them.

Why are you so aggressive & defensive about this anyway? It's not like either of us know for sure so chill out.

Again, your statement shows how little you know about the industry, the roles people play, the homologation processes or the PML responsibilities.

And in some cases, yes I do know for sure

 

[xexe]

Again, your statement shows how little you know about the industry, the roles people play, the homologation processes or the PML responsibilities.

And in some cases, yes I do know for sure

Right now you've got nothing to come with other than ad hominems. "Oh you don't know the industry" Why even create a thread if you're going to resort ad hominems every time somebody even remotely disagrees? I emphasized like thrice that I don't believe they're rigged, but that nobody knows for sure if some of them are rigged in some way. And guess what? I'm objectively correct, we don't know for sure whether some of them are rigged in some way or not.

Sometimes you just gotta take a couple of deep breaths, bite the bullet, and admit when you're wrong bud. No hard feelings

Peace ♥

 

[Gaz237]

Right now you've got nothing to come with other than ad hominems. "Oh you don't know the industry" Why even create a thread if you're going to resort ad hominems every time somebody even remotely disagrees? I emphasized like thrice that I don't believe they're rigged, but that nobody knows for sure if some of them are rigged in some way. And guess what? I'm objectively correct, we don't know for sure whether some of them are rigged in some way or not.

Sometimes you just gotta take a couple of deep breaths, bite the bullet, and admit when you're wrong bud. No hard feelings

Peace ♥

Just WOW.

Looks like your new to the forum.

Perhaps you should do a bit more reading, more so on the AMA thread.

TM has nothing to gain by lying and chooses to share his experience with us members.

There is rigged slots out there, but not on any decent licensed casinos.

As for people not whistle blowing because of their careers. Of course they would, TM being an example that he has worked for different companies and moved on.

 

[mack341]

Trance me ol mucka here's some bits I've been pondering..... If you took the random number generator used by wms/sg and switched it with the one used by netent, igt etc... would there be any difference to how the game played or 'felt' as it were?

And do the smaller slot developers use their own proprietary RNG or something generic they can buy in? Why isn't there just one RNG program for all slot developers to use? [ or maybe there is ] Is it a security concern to have just one or are some viewed as more random than others?

Lastly is the RNG program that a developer uses the same across all their titles, like netent, would twinspin use the same RNG program as vikings, but obviously with different values/results attached to the numbers pulled out.

PS. I know next to bugger all about the making of slots, so the above may be so far off the mark as to reality

 

[trancemonkey]

Here is the code for a Mersenne Twitter Pseudo-RNG .... many companies will use something like this.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

As you can see, it's not very big...

And yes any game will play the same on any RNG.

 

[trancemonkey]

Right now you've got nothing to come with other than ad hominems. "Oh you don't know the industry" Why even create a thread if you're going to resort ad hominems every time somebody even remotely disagrees? I emphasized like thrice that I don't believe they're rigged, but that nobody knows for sure if some of them are rigged in some way. And guess what? I'm objectively correct, we don't know for sure whether some of them are rigged in some way or not.

Sometimes you just gotta take a couple of deep breaths, bite the bullet, and admit when you're wrong bud. No hard feelings

Peace ♥

I'm not attacking you with ad hominems. I'm telling you the truth... you clearly don't understand the development process to say ""only a few are involved in the RNG" which is demonstrably false. Whereas I lead multiple teams through the development process, so I know exactly how it works

The RNG (as I've posted above) is a bit of software that 1. Has to be certified in its own right by the test labs as passing all the tests that RNGs have to go through (check out the GLI website or just Google RNG tests). 2. The coding of the maths is not done in isolation. And it's all tested and retested by in house peer review, stats tests, simulations, and then by the test labs such as GLI or BMM. So no... there aren't only a few people who "work on the RNG" because the rng isn't the maths.

 

[mack341]

Here is the code for a Mersenne Twitter Pseudo-RNG .... many companies will use something like this.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

As you can see, it's not very big...

And yes any game will play the same on any RNG.

Thank you for the link, it looks far too complicated though for my tiny brain It's amazing how clever mathematicians and programmers are, what in the name of old mother riley does it all mean:

"y = (mt[kk] & UPPER_MASK) | (mt[kk + 1] & LOWER_MASK);"



ps. That was only a rhetorical question, any explanations are wasted on me as I never got to grips with algebra, letters appearing in the maths lesson dumbfounded me as I'd only just got used to calculating numbers

 

[trancemonkey]

Thank you for the link, it looks far too complicated though for my tiny brain It's amazing how clever mathematicians and programmers are, what in the name of old mother riley does it all mean:

"y = (mt[kk] & UPPER_MASK) | (mt[kk + 1] & LOWER_MASK);"



ps. That was only a rhetorical question, any explanations are wasted on me as I never got to grips with algebra, letters appearing in the maths lesson dumbfounded me as I'd only just got used to calculating numbers

It's what we programmers call "bit twiddling"

 

[dunover]

Right now you've got nothing to come with other than ad hominems. "Oh you don't know the industry" Why even create a thread if you're going to resort ad hominems every time somebody even remotely disagrees? I emphasized like thrice that I don't believe they're rigged, but that nobody knows for sure if some of them are rigged in some way. And guess what? I'm objectively correct, we don't know for sure whether some of them are rigged in some way or not.

Sometimes you just gotta take a couple of deep breaths, bite the bullet, and admit when you're wrong bud. No hard feelings

Peace ♥

Well let's see the evidence you have that he is wrong?

So far we've had historic instances of poker software and hi-lo gambles which are very basic programmes and nothing like slots, and were very likely not audited in a decent jurisdiction from the start.

We have the GameArt demo scandal, but this was a developer maths model released in error via demo links instead of the compliant real-play version.

Think those demo videos I do sometimes where I have access to a menu to trigger things for purposes of demonstration.

So I am asking you to show me evidence of any slots games licensed and audited in the UK or Europe that have subsequently been proven to be rigged?

This of course would be in conjunction with records of the colossal fines and sanctions the licensed developers and operators would get for providing them in the first place.

You know, 'let's skim the players of a few % RTP over hundreds of thousands of spins and make us and the operator an extra 2k in profit to enjoy before the £5m fine hits us'

 

[goatwack]

I don't know what this thread proves really. There'll be those that believe that slots are bent and others who believe it to be holier than Mother Theresa's chu-

Neither 'camp' is going to be swayed. We'd get more out of a 'Are vegans normal?' discussion

 

[snorky510238]

It has been explained plausibly that slots can come with different rtp settings and that casinos have to display which one they are using. As I understand it this is done by removing certain symbols and therefore lessening the amount of winning combinations. That seems logical and wouldn’t need any other form of “interference”. My point here is that when you have a game like roulette that has a fixed house edge of around 2.7% (European roulette) the programming I would have thought would be relatively straight forward. As in there are 37 numbers and the rng spits one of those out for every spin. I know for a fact that the provider who I didn’t name were running their roulette at a shockingly low 75%. Anything lower than 97.3% can only be achieved if they were using dodgy software or rngs. Which tells you when they were audited/tested whatever you want to call it there are either ways of doing it that can’t be detected or the testing is not sufficient.

 

[goatwack]

It has been explained plausibly that slots can come with different rtp settings and that casinos have to display which one they are using. As I understand it this is done by removing certain symbols and therefore lessening the amount of winning combinations. That seems logical and wouldn’t need any other form of “interference”. My point here is that when you have a game like roulette that has a fixed house edge of around 2.7% (European roulette) the programming I would have thought would be relatively straight forward. As in there are 37 numbers and the rng spits one of those out for every spin. I know for a fact that the provider who I didn’t name were running their roulette at a shockingly low 75%. Anything lower than 97.3% can only be achieved if they were using dodgy software or rngs. Which tells you when they were audited/tested whatever you want to call it there are either ways of doing it that can’t be detected or the testing is not sufficient.

Or how games go stone-cold dead a la 'the switch', when scatters and other top symbols go AWOL. So the RNG still picks random symbols......from a pool of five

 

[lockinlove]

I don't know what this thread proves really. There'll be those that believe that slots are bent and others who believe it to be holier than Mother Theresa's chu-

Neither 'camp' is going to be swayed. We'd get more out a 'Are vegans normal?' discussion

Welcome to the trump thread of slots. At some point you have to realize you can argue til youre orange in the face but this thread or any thread will not change anyones minds. But maybe it's good info for some/lurkers I dunno.

 

[spiker1977]