Are accredited casinos 'allowed' to try and persuade me to reverse a withdrawal?

[H1_Roller]

I PM'd Bryan but got no response.

As titled. I made a large withdrawal from an accredited casino earlier, only to receive a phone call from them offering me a 'cash bonus' if I reverse some of the withdrawal.

I didn't want to start a thread but, as I said, Mr Meister hasn't replied. I won't name the casino until I'm fully informed as to whether or not this is acceptable practice. I don't think it is.

 

[rainmaker]

From "Standards for Accredited Casinos"

"Will not entice players to reverse cash withdrawals with bonuses or other incentives"

So no, they are not "allowed" if they want to be listed on the accredited list

 

[jod5413]

I don't know if it is OK or not, but to me it just sounds like a sales pitch. A little tacky but maybe not totally roguish. It will be interesting to get Bryan's take on this.

Dang, Rainmaker! Do you know every rule on this site or what!

 

[chuchu59]

i dont like the sound of it. this should only be acceptable if it applies to your next deposit as well. i dont believe it can be a cas bonus as there is bound to be some conditions attached. in any case, dont fall for it. meanwhile, to satisfy our curiousity, you can let us know the details of the offer without naming the casino. i dont think bryan will mind.

 

[H1_Roller]

i dont like the sound of it. this should only be acceptable if it applies to your next deposit as well. i dont believe it can be a cas bonus as there is bound to be some conditions attached. in any case, dont fall for it. meanwhile, to satisfy our curiousity, you can let us know the details of the offer without naming the casino. i dont think bryan will mind.

It was a woman. She just said that it was a 'special offer' for new players who make large withdrawals. I was offered a cash bonus if I reversed a portion of my withdrawal to continue playing.

I never got to hear her terms and conditions because I flat out refused (I withdraw for a reason!). It's only when I hung up the phone did a little alarm bell ring. I was certain I had read that in the accredited standards list.

EDIT - I have to go to bed (Children have to go to school), so I'm not intentionally leaving this topic hanging.

 

[rainmaker]

In general, I feel very strongly about issues like these. I see it as absolutely fundamental that a casino don't use a strategy like this in an attempt to convince the player not to withdraw.

In your case, the casino has even contacted you on the phone. They also calls it a "special offer", that is bullshit. This is unacceptable for a casino listed on the accredited list.

And Jod Yeah, I know every rule here, well not really...I only know where to find them, and how to copy and paste

 

[SlotMonster]

I would advise casinos to implement an option, a check-box for example. And by checking this check-box (while registering) I confirm that casino stuff can call me offering new bonuses. If this check-box wasn't checked - calling me with any promotion is not allowed.

 

[chuchu59]

in this instance its not really whether its a promotion or not. the casino may offer anything it wants but to tempt a player to reverse a withdrawal is unethical imo. any offers should be linked to fresh deposits and the withdrawal should be processed quickly without any hassles.

 

[3mptyseat]

Thats why they used the phone....

I have a relationship with an accredited casino where I have asked them to bait me with reverse-ur-withdrawal promos... But as mentioned above, unsolicited 'fishing' for something like that is certainly not part of an accredited casino...

And I am quite sure thats why they used the phone... Bc if they used the chat or an email, well then, u might have a record of it... And with such, they might be headed for a lil contemplative time in the corner, so to speak...

Keep on the watch for other signs of cash flow issues from this joint... Just bc a casino is accredited, doesn't mean they are listed in perpetuity... And given the climate in the USA at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if some casinos, MG's in particular, go under in the next few months, bc many of the casinos that have pulled out of the US marketplace, must be hurting for income...

The other possibility is the operator who phoned you is in charge, and hence also in charge of the bottom line at this place... And as such, they wanted to gamble a lil themselves... Meaning, they made you a reasonable offer, one where you could have easily increased your withdrawal with a touch of luck, or, more likely, given some of it back...

Nothing wrong with it per se; and ppl should note: while this may seem to be predatory, its not uncommon in land based casinos for VIP's who have won and are on their way out, to be lured by comps and other perks offered by the VIP hosts, to stay and play awhile... So, while its definitely not good for a CM accredited casino to be playing this game, its not intrinsically unethical...

 

[Casinomeister]

The reason I didn't answer your PM was that it came in late - 7:44 pm. I wasn't working last night

Casinos should not be doing this - especially those on the accredited list. Unfortunately, the marketing arm sometimes forgets the standards of what they should and should not be doing.

They should not be making deals for you to reverse your withdrawal. I can understand their stance on this - trying to cut processing costs, especially if you are probably going to redeposit funds. And they consider this a favor to the customer since it's convenient for both parties. The problem is is that this technique can be abused - thus it's in our standards for "Accredited Casinos".

Another thing, you should never agree to anything over the phone UNLESS they send you an exact copy of the agreement via email. Don't accept phone calls either. You're being called by a salesperson who is being PAID to ensure you agree to whatever. It's easier to delete an email than it is to saying no on the phone

Go ahead and post the casino name if you'd like. Out of courtesy, please inform the i-Gaming rep so he/she has a chance to respond. Thanks!

 

[H1_Roller]

There is no harm done, and I have no actual 'proof' that this happened because it was a phone call rather than chat or email. I also don't want to drag a good name through the mud because of the actions of an individual.
So what I will actually do is wait until the monies are back in my bank account, and if that is problem-free I'll let it go. I really just wanted to ask the opinions of you guys on this.

 

[Rhyzz]

It's not right but most people do it, we just don't hear about it. I do not agree with being able to reverse a withdrawal but an operator will always use the 'cost of processing' as it's reason for offering this option. Fact is for big operators processing billions of £€$ over a year pays peanuts for fund transfers, so they have no excuse, yet it's the bigger ones who have these people employed to call up players and encourage a reversal for a small bonus.

Name and shame I say, I doubt many of us agree with the practice and they'll only learn if they get some stick for it.

 

[chayton]

I occasionally get an offer of a bonus for reversing a withdrawal from a MG group - it may even be the same one that the OP is talking about. But there's absolutely no pressure or anything like that, I go to flush my withdrawal, they tell me that they'll give me a bonus if I reverse, I say no thanks, they say my WD is flushed, have a nice day.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have had such offers, but they are nearly always WORSE than the offers for making new deposits, and often the best percentage is reserved for reversing the WHOLE amount.

Normally, saving processing costs is NOT the real motive, because in order to claim bonuses the norm is for casinos to INSIST that you allow the withdrawal to go through, and then make a "fresh deposit from your payment method" in order to qualify for the bonus. Sme casinos have gone as far as to say it is "abusive" to claim the bonus from a reversal, rather than a fresh deposit, and players thus disciplined have been told NOT to do this, but to let the withdrawal go ahead, and make a fresh deposit.

 

[Rhyzz]

the norm is for casinos to INSIST that you allow the withdrawal to go through, and then make a "fresh deposit from your payment method" in order to qualify for the bonus.

That's probably one of 2 things - restrictive bonus system that won't recognise a reversal as a deposit and won't trigger the bonus, or they're fudging their deposit figures to make it look like the bonus generated alot of income Most likely the latter!

 

[Pulver]

I have had the same thing happen to me several times from this group aswell...

They recently took over my favorite casino to play at, and on my first withdrawal after the take over they called me offering me a 20% bonus on whatever I reversed. I said no and that was fine, but it is still annoying as h--ll.

I hate it when casinos are calling me and for that reason I never pick up the phone when I don't know the number that is calling me.

 

[deucebag]

I really don't see what the big deal is. What's the difference if you get a bonus for reversing a withdrawal vs a deposit bonus for a fresh deposit? Do you all also think a casino should not offer a deposit bonus for x number of days/weeks after a withdrawal has been processed? If so, what is x?

I don't like casinos calling me, but if they make the offer in email I'm fine with it.

 

[pokerdan]

I had only had this happen to me once before about 8 years ago from golden palace. They kept trying to get me to reverse my money and then they would give me a 100% bonus on the money. It was a $1000.00 withdrawal. Needless to say they never paid me and found some other angle to keep the money. They ended up becoming rogue! I would be very upset if any company did this to me, and would not play on there site ever again out of precaution. the only time I ever talk to a casino on the telephone is if i call them, or they contact me because I have become a new member and they want to confirm my account. Good luck

by the way, there is a big difference in giving you a bonus after your withdrawal as opposed to upon cashout as a reversal. They clearly do not want to pay you your winnings and are trying to get you to gamble back all your winnings. Most people that cashout large sums do not redeposit that full amount!!

 

[sparkz]

I had a few experiences. In fact there was 2 casinos that would give you a "thank you" free chip upon cashout.


They were both rivals and I actually remember having an email saying something like "Congrats on your winnings, they will be pending for 3 days until we process them, to thank you for being a member heres a $20 free chip to play with". Somewhat at the time I was naive and thought "wow this casino is really generous". But now I realize that it was just a ploy to get me to gamble with the chip and when I lose it im more likely to reverse (and lose) my withdraw.

Tactics like this happened at a few other casinos too

 

[pumacat]

I think a great bonus idea would be

"deposit again with us within 5 days of your withdraw and receive a 500% bonus"

This allows for the casino to have a chance at another deposit from the player and with the player not feeling like the casino doesn't want to pay them their original winnings.

Kind of win win that way

 

[jstrike]

There are two competing schools of thought about this, right? Larry Flynt says people are always calling on him to do more in his casinos for problem gamblers, and he says he doesn't have time to "deal with other people's problems." Okay. We're all adults. The competing school says, let's have some f*ing empathy and understand that some people have weaknesses, and not prey on that. Mmm? So if you view yourself as a customer, and the casino as a business servicing you, then it makes sense to choose one that has some empathy and isn't just waiting to pounce on you the second you make some money off of them.

I know for my thing, when it opens, we're going to have a policy that reversals will not be done, even upon request. Players will have to re-deposit.

There's another thing at work here too, though. It's the churn rate. The fact is, casinos pay a lot to get players in the door, and the average length of time those players stay is pretty short. As soon as they lose, they tend to move on. If they have a winning month, they're obviously more likely to come back, but even after a string of wins, losses tend to send player loyalty out the window. And I think the calculation on the part of casinos that do withdrawal reversals is, it's a lot cheaper to hold this player than to go out and find a new one. Which in and of itself is fair enough. It's just that the way they go about it, if they try to get you to reverse your withdrawal, is pretty shady and that goes back to preying on human weakness and a lack of empathy and understanding of the player. Pumacat's suggestion is pretty good, but it leaves out the fact that you might not have to pay to acquire a new player, if this player who just withdrew doesn't think you're a rogue casino, and comes back a few weeks later on their own. So split the difference. But chasing after people who try to withdraw, in the context of an online industry that's notorious for making withdrawals difficult and holding player funds, is obviously not doing yourself any favors as a casino outfit.

 

[3mptyseat]

It started in good faith... Since, it has become a revenur tool...

The og. reason casinos created the 'reversable withdrawl' was bc of the ever increasing cost of deposit processing...

If a place takes visa or MC they are automatically paying the company 7+ percent, and thats the minimum. Now, maybe their bank will eat a lil of that cost if they are high volume, but then we must also consider fraud, e-wallet collapse, soverign and draconian government seizures, and I bet I could think of a few more things...

So lets make up a number, how about 12 percent of every deposit is 'lost' to the corporate card companys and the intermediaries who faciliate those transactions... I know this number to be on the lower end of the spectrum, but lets say its a normal amount...

A withdrawal reversal is free. There is no processing fees, no risk of fraud, no chance of

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and their chargeback-happy banks... (for more on him see this article on

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)



Thats 12percent that the player might see somewhere in the RTP... Prolly not, but u know what I mean... When u consider that the worst RTP% we are supposed to believe RTG casinos can function at, it was 88.?% RTP right, well you can see how much the bottom line would be affected by fee-free deposits then?

Correct me if I am wrong, but at least for the sliver of deposits that a casino gets from withdrawal reversal, thats a pretty sizable amount...

So while I see the need for honest and speedy w/d policy, I also think the policy and its inherent value can only truly be measured when its attached to an operator with integrity. I mean, I know that I am one of the play-back kings at a couple places, and so they are serious about giving me options to protect myself from myself... But u think Inetbet would ever answer an email in under 4 hours while I had a w/d pending, given that I have played back on seperate sessions wins of 6k and 10k, both starting with $50 dollar deposits? Hell no, and I dont blame them... I cant ever play there again, but I dont think they deserve to lose accredidation for something like that... Had I proved early in the relationship that I wasn't going to pay off their mortage, I bet subsequent w/d attempt would have been executed with haste...

I know a very celebrated place that takes as much time as the 'impulsive' player needs to play back large wins, to get w/ds done... And I know other places that will lock a w/d, preventing it from being reversed... And I could see a scenario where both places are accredited... Is my point... I think...

I am rambling... Later...

 

[4 of a kind]

3mptyseat made very factual valued points about overhead in the above post by him, and only scratched the surface. From affiliate fees to note payments and everything in between the actual overhead must be tremendous.

High volume casinos even though having the same if not more overhead expenses then smaller ones, would have no problem operating on a smaller take from the players. Online high volume casinos is a tiny percentage when compared to its online competition, unlike its counterpart land based casinos. Imagine how long the strip would have to be in Vegas to showcase a building for every online casino that exists. How could they possibly fill them and all be high volume? I know the www changes that a little, but certainly not enough when considering the number of online casinos that do exist.

I think it is safe to say that the majority of online casinos are not all created equal and certainly are not automatically sharing the same rewards. The whole online bonus creation was a direct result of fighting for customers, since that’s pretty much all they had to offer, and once again the complete opposite of land based casinos. In the early days of bonuses, many players were having a field day conquering their offers. Today bonuses evolved into what they presently are, a "Frankenstein". Regardless, bonuses and the small depositors are like the retired bus loads of seniors unloading into land based casinos that kept their heads above water, for the most part. A high rollers online experience of course would be different then a low roller.

My point being is that I don’t believe (98%) of online casinos could possibly operate with lets round it off to an average 5% casino hold let alone the famous well known consistently bragged about 97.8% online rtp setting, (2.2% casino hold) Many people here consistently throughout the years and still insist otherwise.

I think online you’d be lucky if you were getting 86% rtp’s at most casinos, and if you were lucky enough to win, I don’t blame the casino for delaying or other tactics their being forced to abuse. All these actions are nothing more then fighting for survival. Of course the obvious blatant crook is one thing, but other tactics I understand.

The way online casinos have proven to operate, and considering the size of the rogue list here and getting even 10 times bigger when adding all the different rogue lists together; now throw in the actions with the USA, I predict a huge correction with online gaming. (I recommend the short players to step up) Of course the big boys will have some time left, but it’s only a matter of time till the collapsed sites start dribbling out even more negatives, casting to much doubt in it’s present form to survive.

 

[H1_Roller]

.......
I know a very celebrated place that takes as much time as the 'impulsive' player needs to play back large wins, to get w/ds done... And I know other places that will lock a w/d, preventing it from being reversed... And I could see a scenario where both places are accredited... Is my point... I think...

I am rambling... Later...

Great post, interesting reading. The bold line is one of the reasons I love Ladbrokes more than any other online casino. You click [withdraw] and it's processed there and then.

 

[azzagirt]

Done to me

I also was approached by a friendly CR by phone when I withdrew as little as $900. She suggested that if I was to say reverse $200. she would give me a $40.00 cash bonus.I said I didn't want it if there was a playthru involved, she assured me it would not have any attached wagers and I could withdraw imediately so I agreed she reversed the money and added my extra $40.00.
I withdrew $1000. at the same casino last w/e and got another call from them I advised that I was at work and it was not suitable to talk she asked when it would be suitable ,I said after mid day tomorrow then I turned my phone off. I kept my withdrawal at the 1,000. and was paid in 10 days after supplying id.