Questions about RTP

[chuchu59]

KK may be publishing info that is 2 years old but in the absence of fresh input from rtg that's about the best he can do. Personally, I have a gut feeling they have been lowered but of course there is no proof. If Dogboy reads this thread he may come out to clarify although he may be reluctant to do so if the settings are not 91%,95% and 97% any more. Slots like Fileld of Green and Crazy Vegas seem to have lower rtps but that is again based on a gut feeling. Fruit Frenzy hits closest to home as I am sure there was a glitch several years ago where the feature yielded only 5 free spins for every player during a certain period as was evidenced through numerous posts and my personal experience.

, for one, would love Dogboy to come out and relay to us the current rtp settings and if the settings vary among slots so be it. At least this will go some way to quash the theories, or otherwise, that rtg slots have become extremely tight. Should he decide not to do so its still understandable but may raise more conspiracy theories to the detriment of rtg.

 

[4 of a kind]

And 4oak, you were very disrespectful toward KK.

Why is everyone trying to make this personal? The fact is those RTP listings are bullshit, case closed.

I happen to like KK, and If I were to choose a casino from an affiliate, I would love to have KK on my side when their trying to rip me off.

 

[bb28]

I believe KK's or any other affiliate web site exhibiting RTG's RTP's as fact is misleading, and at best nothing more then an assumption. Saying two year old RTP information is current in the gaming world exposes your only intentions, which is obviously only to get ill-advised newbies to sign on.

Why would you consider my comments as personal?


Since KK is making money off the backs of newbies I feel it's only fair he advertises fact. Because he makes comments like: "All the information I provide is correct and accurate to the best of my knowledge and ability" doesn't mean he could advertise known bullshit.



An affiliate dangling ridicules bonuses in front of newbies is no different then dangling bullshit RTP's.

Why is everyone trying to make this personal? The fact is those RTP listings are bullshit, case closed.

I BOLDED the stuff from your previous posts in this thread in which you chose to make it personal regarding KK.

I wish my original post could just be what it was intended to be, discussion, theories and facts if known are welcome.

 

[Nifty29]

Why is everyone trying to make this personal? The fact is those RTP listings are bullshit, case closed.

I happen to like KK, and If I were to choose a casino from an affiliate, I would love to have KK on my side when their trying to rip me off.

So, KK's listings are bullshit....but your "inside information" and "backend screenshots" are all totally legit....along with the more recent RTP settings you posted.....oh hang on a minute....you didn't post any did you?

You also seem to forget that KK didn't create the listings, he just copied them from the RTG site. So, unless you think RTG planted those deliberately so people like kK could find them (now there's a conspiracy for ya), they are legit....far more legit, in fact, than anything you have posted from your "renegade RTG ex-licensee" (who would have no reason I'm sure to besmirch the RTG brand given that he obviously lost his dough, or otherwise he wouldn't be an ex-licensee...). I would put more trust in a screenshot of my backend.

Anyway, sorry for the slight derail there, I just thought it was relevant given that 4OAK was questioning KK's integrity.

 

[bb28]

KK may be publishing info that is 2 years old but in the absence of fresh input from rtg that's about the best he can do. Personally, I have a gut feeling they have been lowered but of course there is no proof. If Dogboy reads this thread he may come out to clarify although he may be reluctant to do so if the settings are not 91%,95% and 97% any more. Slots like Fileld of Green and Crazy Vegas seem to have lower rtps but that is again based on a gut feeling. Fruit Frenzy hits closest to home as I am sure there was a glitch several years ago where the feature yielded only 5 free spins for every player during a certain period as was evidenced through numerous posts and my personal experience.

, for one, would love Dogboy to come out and relay to us the current rtp settings and if the settings vary among slots so be it. At least this will go some way to quash the theories, or otherwise, that rtg slots have become extremely tight. Should he decide not to do so its still understandable but may raise more conspiracy theories to the detriment of rtg.

Hi chuchu, I wish Dogboy would come back and post too.

I've toyed with doing a poll on what posters think individual casino's/groups rtp is set at. Of course it would just be a poll but it might be interesting. Anyone else think so?

 

[aceking123]

I've toyed with doing a poll on what posters think individual casino's/groups rtp is set at. Of course it would just be a poll but it might be interesting. Anyone else think so?[/QUOTE]

its a good idea but problem is it shall indeed get totaly derailed by bickering here , could try , would be nice for all the forum to put the thinking caps on & come up with some brilliant ideas about RTP% across RTG .so many forum members with years behind them of online gaming , would give another look from the forum members.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Yeah why not - go for it .

 

[DiamondGeezer]

I think 4OAK's criticism of KK is justified because a greater reliance is placed on information provided by affiliates than that provided by say another player.

Nifty are you going to share the information you have then?

 

[4 of a kind]

I’ve been around here long enough to understand why and how the inner circle of members here must come to the aid of other members in that elite group, regardless how wrong one of them might be. With that being said, it should be obvious to most why those members are trying to make my comments about KK’s false advertising for personal gain a personal attack on KK.

A disclaimer is in order clarifying those RTP postings explaining the information was retrieved from the RTG web-site and has since been removed and now stored in the top secret files along with all of the other information players have a right to know about two years ago. He should also mention that he can’t guarantee those settings as confirmed fact.

He might want to also mention that he believes a 4th setting might have been added since, and that some other slots may be as low as 86%, since this information is just as worthy as what he has posted, since today (2 years later) it could only be considered for hear say.

Then again he could be totally honest and admit he really has no idea what any RTP setting might be today, since there is no regulation or enforcement in place to guarantee what he read or heard someplace.

KK’s integrity has a right to be challenged since he’s making money from dangling unconfirmed RTP settings in the faces of ill-advised newbies.

Niffty’s post above is a perfect example of an inner circle member coming to the defense of another, by bringing to the table comparisons of another issue so far off the topic trying to discredit my points. If he was a member that should be taken serious, he should have stood tall and agreed with the confirmed facts, that nothing could be confirmed.

In addition I have some pretty funny comments relating to a screen shot of Niffty’s backend, but unfortunately I’m unable to share them since I’ll be charged with baiting. But Niffty you can just keep throwing all the bucket loads of chum you want into the water, you won’t lure me in anytime soon. Not sure if anyone noticed but I obviously stay clear from all of Niffty’s postings.

 

[bb28]

I’ve been around here long enough to understand why and how the inner circle of members here must come to the aid of other members in that elite group, regardless how wrong one of them might be. With that being said, it should be obvious to most why those members are trying to make my comments about KK’s false advertising for personal gain a personal attack on KK.

Seriously you are the one who made it personal. You could have made your point - the snide remarks.

A disclaimer is in order clarifying those RTP postings explaining the information was retrieved from the RTG web-site and has since been removed and now stored in the top secret files along with all of the other information players have a right to know about two years ago. He should also mention that he can’t guarantee those settings as confirmed fact.

He might want to also mention that he believes a 4th setting might have been added since, and that some other slots may be as low as 86%, since this information is just as worthy as what he has posted, since today (2 years later) it could only be considered for hear say.

The above is a good suggestion and he could certainly say the below also. See this is where you and I differ, I don't think KK intends to mislead or take advantage of anyone, but you seem to feel differently and this is where the problem lies.

Then again he could be totally honest and admit he really has no idea what any RTP setting might be today, since there is no regulation or enforcement in place to guarantee what he read or heard someplace.



KK’s integrity has a right to be challenged since he’s making money from dangling unconfirmed RTP settings in the faces of ill-advised newbies.

OK, lets take that word dangling out of your sentence, do you see how that one word changes the meaning of what you said and makes the comment snide? You could make your point without the snide remarks. I wanted to say this to address the real meaning of your sentence, I doubt most newbies even know what rtp is.

Niffty’s post above is a perfect example of an inner circle member coming to the defense of another, by bringing to the table comparisons of another issue so far off the topic trying to discredit my points. If he was a member that should be taken serious, he should have stood tall and agreed with the confirmed facts, that nothing could be confirmed.

I'm not part of whatever you are referring to, hell I haven't even posted around here for I think going on 2 years.However I have lurked from time to time. Furthermore I have no issue with you, other than what seems to be your penchant for picking unfairly on KK because I enjoy reading your posts and think it's good some of the things you bring up.

In addition I have some pretty funny comments relating to a screen shot of Niffty’s backend, but unfortunately I’m unable to share them since I’ll be charged with baiting. But Niffty you can just keep throwing all the bucket loads of chum you want into the water, you won’t lure me in anytime soon. Not sure if anyone noticed but I obviously stay clear from all of Niffty’s postings.

***********see bolded

 

[Casinomeister]

Hi all........been lurking for quite a while but decided to come out and ask a few questions. With that said, I've got a few questions for some of you that have a good grasp on RTP. (I certainly don't.)

I have this assumption about B&M RTP and correct me if I'm wrong please. Let's say that they advertise their rtp as 93%. I assume that that means that not all machines will have a 93%, some may have 88, some may have 99, but it averages out to 93%. Is that a correct assumption?

Now with online rtp's and let's use RTG as the example because it seems to be widely accepted that there are 3 different settings that each casino can go with. So let's assume that this particular casino is set at the middle which is 95%. So assuming that is true, does that mean that each game is set at 95 or does that mean that some are lower, some are higher or is it a flat 95% across the board?

Also if my above assumption is correct about different games having different rtps, can the rtp be set differently for different bet sizes?


Hope my questions are clear.

This is straight from RTG:

There are three settings for the RTP on RTG slots. 91.5, 95 & 97.5%. When games are released they are set at the default 95%. The 91% is designed primarily for those operators who use RTG software for Asian kiosks and Internet cafes where these games are played. 95% of all RTG casinos have their slots set at 95%

Now this was from a little over a year ago, I'm sure the same applies now.

Interesting thing about the RTP in landbased casinos - I was at the Wynn this last week playing VP. The machine I was on had several games (Spin Poker, Super Times Pay Poker, etc.) I asked the floor manager about the RTP for the games. My question was "Is the RTP set for each individual game, or is the RTP set for the entire machine itself?" he said he was sure it was set for each individual game. I asked what the RTP was for the games. He said he didn't know: "They never tell us that." he said.

So at least in the online versions, we have a pretty good idea what we are getting. At the Wynn, we have to guess

But the bottom line is, the house always wins - it's right there in black in white. And whether it's a difference of a few percentages, it really doesn't make much difference in the end. The key to your bankroll's survival is knowing when to walk away.

 

[H1_Roller]

But the bottom line is, the house always wins

Quoted and seconded for truth.

 

[Tengil]

This is straight from RTG:

There are three settings for the RTP on RTG slots. 91.5, 95 & 97.5%. When games are released they are set at the default 95%. The 91% is designed primarily for those operators who use RTG software for Asian kiosks and Internet cafes where these games are played. 95% of all RTG casinos have their slots set at 95%

Now this was from a little over a year ago, I'm sure the same applies now.

Interesting thing about the RTP in landbased casinos - I was at the Wynn this last week playing VP. The machine I was on had several games (Spin Poker, Super Times Pay Poker, etc.) I asked the floor manager about the RTP for the games. My question was "Is the RTP set for each individual game, or is the RTP set for the entire machine itself?" he said he was sure it was set for each individual game. I asked what the RTP was for the games. He said he didn't know: "They never tell us that." he said.

So at least in the online versions, we have a pretty good idea what we are getting. At the Wynn, we have to guess

But the bottom line is, the house always wins - it's right there in black in white. And whether it's a difference of a few percentages, it really doesn't make much difference in the end. The key to your bankroll's survival is knowing when to walk away.

It actually makes a huge difference.

If we take the 91,5 vs 95 for example.
Wager 100k and the difference is 3,5k.
The difference becomes massive if you have an budget. 20k annual budget and betsize of 1 dollar the 95% version would give 400k spins whereas the 91,5% version would only give you ~235k spins.

 

[bb28]

It actually makes a huge difference.

If we take the 91,5 vs 95 for example.
Wager 100k and the difference is 3,5k.
The difference becomes massive if you have an budget. 20k annual budget and betsize of 1 dollar the 95% version would give 400k spins whereas the 91,5% version would only give you ~235k spins.

Maybe I'm not understanding the rtp stuff correctly so correct me if I'm wrong. Just because a slot as a 95% rtp doesn't mean that you will get that even if you wager 100k, at a 1.00 a pop, correct? So if my assumption is correct, you could spend that 100k and have a 75% return or you could get lucky on a few spins and have a 300% return right?

 

[Casinomeister]

Maybe I'm not understanding the rtp stuff correctly so correct me if I'm wrong. Just because a slot as a 95% rtp doesn't mean that you will get that even if you wager 100k, at a 1.00 a pop, correct? So if my assumption is correct, you could spend that 100k and have a 75% return or you could get lucky on a few spins and have a 300% return right?

Correct. A slot machine could be set at 75% and you may have a massive winning streak. It may be set at 97% and all you get is shit. It's random, so it could happen. Of course the longer you play, the closer you get to the RTP.

It actually makes a huge difference.

If we take the 91,5 vs 95 for example.
Wager 100k and the difference is 3,5k.
The difference becomes massive if you have an budget. 20k annual budget and betsize of 1 dollar the 95% version would give 400k spins whereas the 91,5% version would only give you ~235k spins.

I mean in the end. Game over. You lose. The longer you play, the closer you get to that -5% or -2.5%. No matter what the % number is, your bankroll is gone.

 

[Tengil]

Maybe I'm not understanding the rtp stuff correctly so correct me if I'm wrong. Just because a slot as a 95% rtp doesn't mean that you will get that even if you wager 100k, at a 1.00 a pop, correct? So if my assumption is correct, you could spend that 100k and have a 75% return or you could get lucky on a few spins and have a 300% return right?

Only used a simple example to illustrate the huge difference 3,5% would make. Running good or bad you would still "lose" the extra 3,5%.

I mean in the end. Game over. You lose. The longer you play, the closer you get to that -5% or -2.5%. No matter what the % number is, your bankroll is gone.

Well its the casinos who always says that its entertainment. If you knew you would get less value for money spent you would reduce your spending on that good, in this case gambling. Bottom line it would drastically change the consumers preferences and thus the utility function.

 

[Jufo]

I mean in the end. Game over. You lose. The longer you play, the closer you get to that -5% or -2.5%. No matter what the % number is, your bankroll is gone.

I don't agree with this argument. With -2.5% you get to play (on average) twice as long as with -5%, and players do value greatly how long their bankroll will last, ie. how much action they get for their buck. Also -2.5% gives much better chances to end up ahead than -5%.

With your argument one could say that 10% return is just as good as 95% return because the end result is always the same.

 

[Jufo]

Maybe I'm not understanding the rtp stuff correctly so correct me if I'm wrong. Just because a slot as a 95% rtp doesn't mean that you will get that even if you wager 100k, at a 1.00 a pop, correct? So if my assumption is correct, you could spend that 100k and have a 75% return or you could get lucky on a few spins and have a 300% return right?

Not quite. The larger the play data sample, the closer the actual RTP will converge to the theoretical RTP, due to

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. So, assuming a typical slot with medium variance, a 75% return after 500 spins is possible, it would be extremely rare to have 75% return after 100k spins.

Here are some stats for Loaded slot:

100 Spins - 97.5% chance that the RTP is at least 40%
500 Spins - 97.5% chance that the RTP is at least 61.2%
5000 spins - 97.5% chance that the RTP is at least 83.4%
50000 Spins - 97.5% chance that the RTP is at least 92.2%

So if you did 50000 spins on Loaded, it would be unusual for the total RTP to be below 90% (there is 99.9% a chance that the RTP is above 90%) but for a smaller number of spins it wouldn't be unusual. A 75% return after 50000 spins is so unlikely that my computer cannot even display the number so it just says that the chance for that is zero.

 

[Simmo!]

I don't agree with this argument. With -2.5% you get to play (on average) twice as long as with -5%, and players do value greatly how long their bankroll will last, ie. how much action they get for their buck.

I think CM is saying that were you were to play, say, "for ever" you would eventually run out of money on any game with a house edge, whetehr it be 0.0000000001% or 10%. Your argument is true for someone who either stops and cashes out or just wants to extend ther gambling time.

 

[Jufo]

I think CM is saying that were you were to play, say, "for ever" you would eventually run out of money on any game with a house edge, whetehr it be 0.0000000001% or 10%. Your argument is true for someone who either stops and cashes out or just wants to extend ther gambling time.

Yes but given that a person always has chance to replenish his bankroll (by working hard for example) it would be advantageous for the player that his current bankroll lasts longer so that he doesn't need to replenish it so often, right? So the "running out of money" argument isn't valid because the amount of money you have right now is not the same as the amount you will have across your whole lifetime.