KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings!

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Micki said:
We would have been perfectly within our rights to not allow her to start again, but we decided to return her inital deposit and bonus permitting her to start again.

You should have stopped while you were ahead.

The T&Cs state that you can confiscate winnings from excluded games. It doesn't allow you to confiscate deposits.

Furthermore, reviewing your T&Cs, the confiscation clause is buried.

You bold the fact that excluded games do not count towards the WR, but then bury the confiscation part within another paragraph.
 
Restricted games are so "playtechish", and there is no need at all for an honest reputable casino to have rules like these. It is not rocket science.Just set up your bonuses and promos allowing all games. With a little creative thinking it can still be profitable for the casino,and incentive for the player. I have many good ideas I will use after I land my job as a online casino manager.
 
soflat said:
The T&Cs state that you can confiscate winnings from excluded games. It doesn't allow you to confiscate deposits.

What part of the casino giving the player back her deposit AND bonus (which is currently still sitting in the player's account) do you not understand? :what:

I'm sorry, but I still can't see how people expect casinos to allow players to build up their bankroll on excluded games so that the player stands a better chance of making money (or merely keeping the bonus) after meeting WR on allowed games.
 
Macgyver said:
What part of the casino giving the player back her deposit AND bonus (which is currently still sitting in the player's account) do you not understand? :what:

The casino rep acts like they were doing her a favor by not confiscating the deposit:

We would have been perfectly within our rights to not allow her to start again, but we decided to return her inital deposit and bonus permitting her to start again.

Which part of the T&Cs do you understand to mean they can confiscate deposits? It only mentions winnings being confiscatable.

If they feel they can confiscate deposits without stating that in the T&Cs I would consider that extremely shady.
 
Spearmaster I concede on that. I misused the term 'hung out to dry' and in the EH thread you seem remarkably non biased.

Micki, I think you are confusing your terms.

As many of you have pointed out our T & C's state: '...the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group.' This statement is there to allow us to make an exception at our discretion, it does not obligate us. We have made many exceptions and will continue to do so if we feel it correct.

The 'exception' which the terms refer to is of seizing winnings "These winnings may be deemed null & void and will be removed/confiscated from your account balance or withdrawals at the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group."

The 'exception' which you refer to is of NOT seizing winnings. There is a big difference between innocent until proven guilty and guilty until proven innocent. The burden of proof on justifying why an exception should be made (ie. the confiscation of winnings) should lie with the casino not with the player having to justify why an exception should not be made.

Hiding behind the terms is pretty poor show. The terms allow you to make an exception and confiscate winnings but by no means obligate you to do so.

It is an active decision to invoke this term and make an exception. You are muddling your 'exceptions'. And saying "we are allowed to do it" does not win the argument. All it does is link you in the minds of players with unscrupulous Playtech operators who use a virtually identical term to seize winnings.

I don't like to be saying this about King Neptunes. As you know I USED to consider them pretty much the best around. Now thats relegated to "better than average" which is not much of a title considering the rest of the industry
 
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elscrabinda said:
Spearmaster I concede on that. I misused the term 'hung out to dry' and in the EH thread you seem remarkably non biased.
LMAO... now if I could only convince the other 99% :)

The 'exception' which you refer to is of NOT seizing winnings. There is a big difference between innocent until proven guilty and guilty until proven innocent. The burden of proof on justifying why an exception should be made (ie. the confiscation of winnings) should lie with the casino not with the player having to justify why an exception should not be made.

Hiding behind the terms is pretty poor show. The terms allow you to make an exception and confiscate winnings but by no means obligate you to do so.

I don't think I can agree with this argument - though I do see where you could say "winnings WILL be void and null and shall be confiscated" - this is something that perhaps Trident can look at.

However - the fact remains that Trident was fully entitled to take the action it did. I personally would prefer the terms worded as I explained above - but I would also understand the word "exception" to mean a hand or spin or two on an excluded game in a session which is otherwise clearly dominated by games which do count towards playthrough.

In this case - I somehow doubt $6700 was "accidentally" won in a hand or two. I honestly cannot see how this could be considered an exception. Yet Micki chose to look beyond that and look at the first qualifying bet - which the player lost - so in my opinion every opportunity was afforded in analyzing the situation even though I think this is well beyond what any casino should be required to do.

It is an active decision to invoke this term and make an exception. You are muddling your 'exceptions'. And saying "we are allowed to do it" does not win the argument. All it does is link you in the minds of players with unscrupulous Playtech operators who use a virtually identical term to seize winnings.

Again I have to disagree, for the reasons stated above. The PT operators you refer to generally abuse the wording in their T&Cs. I can not in any manner see this as abuse.

soflat said:
The casino rep acts like they were doing her a favor by not confiscating the deposit

I think her statement was just kind of poorly written. I don't think Micki would even consider not returning a deposit as a bare minimum. I know of cases where she was badly taken advantage of and she paid out every single cent.
 
whats a fair casino

whats a fair casino accredited casinos no i dont think so i think its a casino who acts fairly and pays to winners no matter if they won from bonus or not its been about fair and good i dont think this player was a bonus abuser imagine what will happen if that player won major millions after playing a restrcited game wont they pay 1mill becouse of time diffrent the player has read the terms before and regester 1 day later do you think is it good thing for players to check terms day by day if terms changed its not stockexchange it casinos for godsake :what: i think king neptunes will do the right thing
 
vedat said:
whats a fair casino accredited casinos no i dont think so i think its a casino who acts fairly and pays to winners no matter if they won from bonus or not its been about fair and good i dont think this player was a bonus abuser imagine what will happen if that player won major millions after playing a restrcited game wont they pay 1mill becouse of time diffrent the player has read the terms before and regester 1 day later do you think is it good thing for players to check terms day by day if terms changed its not stockexchange it casinos for godsake :what: i think king neptunes will do the right thing

As far as I know, progressives are also excluded from playthrough requirements. In fact, I am quite certain of this because the casino will have to make a contribution to the jackpot for each bet on a progressive. If such a strange situation were to actually occur, I suspect the jackpot would simply be reset to its past level - and both the player AND the casino lose money.
 
I did notice today that Neteller has a special "policy changes" page with a link on the left side of the main page when you view your account. If Trident had such a page this whole issue would be much more clear.
 
spearmaster said:
As far as I know, progressives are also excluded from playthrough requirements. In fact, I am quite certain of this because the casino will have to make a contribution to the jackpot for each bet on a progressive.
On the other hand the casino would not have to pay out if the player hit the jackpot. Ignoring any cut by the software provider, the two should balance out in the long term, especially for smaller jackpots which hit more frequently.
 
GrandMaster said:
On the other hand the casino would not have to pay out if the player hit the jackpot. Ignoring any cut by the software provider, the two should balance out in the long term, especially for smaller jackpots which hit more frequently.

This will depend on the provider. If it is Microgaming we're talking about, notice I mentioned that a cut of each bet would go to the jackpot - and thus the jackpot is paid out by Jackpot Madness, not the casino. The casino makes less on a progressive bet than on an equivalent bet in another game, even if the house edge is higher.
 
Let's compare progressive and non-progressive slots with 95% payout or equivalently, 5% house edge.

Non-progressive: The casino pays out, on average, 95c out of every $1 wagered and keeps 5c as gross profit.

Progressive: Let's assume that the progressive jackpot accounts for 5% of the payout and 90% is paid out on the other wins, and that the casino pays 5% to the software provider. Now the casino only gets 95c out of every $1 wagered, but only has to pay out 90c, so the casino's expected profit is still 5c. Assume now that the jackpot only accounts for 4%, and the other wins 91%, but the casino still has to pay 5% of the amount wagered to the software provider. Now the casino has to pay out 91c out of 95c, so it is essentially a slot machine with 4% house edge.

Maybe someone closer to the industry could supply more accurate percentages, but the principle is clear.
 
elscrabinda said:
And saying "we are allowed to do it" does not win the argument. All it does is link you in the minds of players with unscrupulous Playtech operators who use a virtually identical term to seize winnings.
I don't think King Neptunes have the deliberately unclear terms of unscrupulous operators, but this "trigger" term that forfeits winnings is unworthy of a casino aspiring to be among the best (as some still seem unclear on this, the usual standard is for play on disallowed games simply not to count towards wagering).

The problem with triggers is that it's a certainty that a consistent stream of recreational players will fall for them . It'd be interesting to see the figures for the amounts forfeited weekly, but I'd assume that around any change in terms and conditions it skyrockets. It's fair enough for casinos to earn money due to the house edge and variance - I think aggressively taking advantage of errors is something that should be restricted to the lower end of the industry.

The one valid argument in favour of the term would be mathematical, but it's not convincing. A lot of people are being blinded by the huge sum the player built up here, as if playing a restricted game somehow made that likely. Most of the other players caught out playing deuces wild at this time no doubt lost their deposits. Sharp players don't need to play restricted games to ensure a significant expected profit.

Micki, in the interests of attracting and retaining players it might genuinely be worth your while to reconsider forfeiting winnings. At the very least you might consider mitigating the effects when you switch terms and have more players making mistakes.
 
GrandMaster said:
Let's compare progressive and non-progressive slots with 95% payout or equivalently, 5% house edge.

Non-progressive: The casino pays out, on average, 95c out of every $1 wagered and keeps 5c as gross profit.

Progressive: Let's assume that the progressive jackpot accounts for 5% of the payout and 90% is paid out on the other wins, and that the casino pays 5% to the software provider. Now the casino only gets 95c out of every $1 wagered, but only has to pay out 90c, so the casino's expected profit is still 5c. Assume now that the jackpot only accounts for 4%, and the other wins 91%, but the casino still has to pay 5% of the amount wagered to the software provider. Now the casino has to pay out 91c out of 95c, so it is essentially a slot machine with 4% house edge.

Maybe someone closer to the industry could supply more accurate percentages, but the principle is clear.

Somehow I misread your post to mean that the casino DID have to payout the jackpot... my mistake :(

Your description is correct - but I remember that there was a reason why progressives did not count. I'll have to look that up.
 
Seem to have caught the ass end of this one, so I shant input any further except stating that Micki is probably one of the most honest casino operators around.

The old timers will probably remember the sunny group fiasco. imo Micki's impeccable integrity was sealed with her action on that one. If you don't know about that google it I'm sure there is still info around.

While I'm whistling on my soap box, (this is not a justification either) but running a casino is not a bed of roses or a walk in the park. Each day bonus whores are consistently trying to screw you over.

IMO casino T&C's are over the top, but if they didn't have all their T's crossed and their i's dotted, they'd be royally screwed over by every bonus whore around. Not everyone is a bonus whore, unfortunately the casinos a so paranoid of the scams these days that they are on high alert always.

The good old days have long gone!
 
Trezz said:
IMO casino T&C's are over the top, but if they didn't have all their T's crossed and their i's dotted, they'd be royally screwed over by every bonus whore around. Not everyone is a bonus whore, unfortunately the casinos a so paranoid of the scams these days that they are on high alert always.
As many examples show, they don't have their t's crossed and i's dotted.
 
Vesuvio said:
I don't think King Neptunes have the deliberately unclear terms of unscrupulous operators, but this "trigger" term that forfeits winnings is unworthy of a casino aspiring to be among the best (as some still seem unclear on this, the usual standard is for play on disallowed games simply not to count towards wagering).

"Standard"?? :confused:

There is no standard for a casino's T&C, which is part of the problem. I've been playing bonuses for almost 3 years now ... I've always read T&C to be that if you play an excluded game, you risk forfeiting your bonus and winnings.

However, if you're arguing that there should be a standard, I'm in 100% agreement with you.
 
Partly convincing

I am afraid the part about the player leaping on the DW as soon as possible is not a convincing case as the player believed this game was OK. Her move to 3 card poker can be explained because this game also has the excitement of having a big payout potential on a single bet. I can't see the relevance to her first bet happening to be 400, this is simply the table max, and the fact that is matches the deposit and bonus is irrelevant. I suspect the player simply wanted to go for another big win by playing large bets. Surely if the aim was to abuse the bonus I would have expected a switch to slots on low stakes and autoplay to clear the WR painlessly overnight, followed by the full 8000 being requested. (I am assuming the player has not lied to the forum in her posts, or otherwise attempted to mislead).

I have played just this pattern without a bonus when I have hit a royal flush. I take a few bets on the 3-card poker to see if it is hot, and try the other VP games.
If I was wanting to win from a Trident bonus, I would probably start on 3-card poker, given that last month JorB and A&F did not apply. With all VP now excluded, I would still try a little 3-card poker, but would then play the free spin slots.
If only slots were allowed, and I wanted to go for the big hit, I would lump 4.50 per spin on 5-reel drive till any 5 in a row hit and then played something like Sonic Boom on a low stake. This "abuse" strategy is still available under the current terms.
Players who take a bonus expect to have a chance of winning big, to hammer the terms down to the extent that winning is not seen as desirable is not going to attract new customers. I would love to know how such a balance was built up on DW from 400, this alone seems extremely lucky, and I would expect 99.9% of bonus hunters trying this would lose everything pretty quickly on the variance. True, JorB might give them a chance to clear WR and take the bonus, but not anything with a higher variance.

Whatever the reputation of a casino, I am wary of such confiscation terms as the decision is subjective (unless applied in all cases). Mikki has not mentioned whether any of the other 4 restricted games played were also restricted in the T & C the player claimed to have thought applied, this could weaken the players case significantly, as the current belief is that the player only played DW because this was a new restriction not present in April.

I recall the case earlier of the 86 year old Israeli who argued with Fortune Lounge against the confiscation clause. The forum rallied round in part and Fortune Lounge reconsidered and allowed another chance. Personally, I found 86 year old Israeli woman gambling online hard to swallow, and I didn't really think the player stood much chance as this was a pretty clear circumstantial indicator of a player "trick", yet only a couple of posts brought this up.

I would urge all MG casinos to use EZBonus, such problems as this simply could not happen. The bonuses on offer should be reassessed so that they have the same expected value as before. Another thing to look at is severely cutting the max wager size on new player accounts. MG supports this, Casino Action used it last year on bonus and tournament accounts. These two changes will prevent the arguments about WR, and will prevent the big bet scenario used by some bonus chasers to get a head start.
Another way of offering a bonus might to be to give back 1%, or so of total wagering in the first x days the account is open. The cashback will be weighted according to the games that qualify so as to not provide a long term positive expectation that could be ground out on autoplay.
 
The $400 is relevant. Actually, it can be argued that winnings on 'non-excluded games cannot be confiscated if it can be shown that this was won through the deposit and bonus and not from winnings derived from non-excluded games. The fact that she lost her first bet of $400 means that she would have already lost her deposit and bonus and she used her 'winnings' to place further bets. Conversely, if she had won her $400 bet, she would have $800 of her own money to continue playing and it is possible that some of the additional winnings on 'non excluded games' are legitmate and the casino should pay her.
 
Macgyver said:
"Standard"?? :confused:

There is no standard for a casino's T&C, which is part of the problem. I've been playing bonuses for almost 3 years now ... I've always read T&C to be that if you play an excluded game, you risk forfeiting your bonus and winnings.
By standard for reputable casinos I just mean that that's the way almost all of them have worked. Terms that mean you can forfeit all your winnings for a small mistake have generally been found only at the more dubious Playtechs & RTGs.

I think Microgaming understand the ill-will that creates which explains why they designed the EZBonus system (which vinylweatherman mentioned) with no such trigger for forfeiting all of a player's funds. That looks like the new standard, though it'll be interesting to see if casinos like King Neptune's move over to it or continue to risk their player base with their present terms (they'll weigh the bad publicity against the extra bonanza they get in forfeited winnings).
 
piecar said:
Just a few things...

Again, as I have said before I read the Terms & Conditions on the evening of March 31st. I made my deposit and played at about 6 pm on April 1st. I would say the total elapsed time was about 20 hours between reading and playing. My bad. Again, I made an HONEST mistake and was hoping that this forum would help me to have King Neptunes relax their position on thier right to 'void and confiscate all winnings made on excluded games...'

BTW Casinomeister, you chastised me for posting this in the forum instead of dircetly "pitching a bitch." I went to pitch my bitch but there was a note on the webpage that said you were away and to just post in the forum. And that is what I did. I was following your instructions.

Anyway you should all know that played many games at King Neptunes. I played slots, cyber stud poker, roulette, craps, blackjack, tri card poker. I played A LOT there. I wagered A LOT. And I only cashed in a small portion of my nearly 8,000 pound balance--I cashed in for 1,000 pounds and fully intended to play with the rest at a later date.

I admit that it is my responsibility to read and understand the casino's Terms & Condtions. My only gripe is the extreme interpretation of their "right to void winnings" clause. This was an honest mistake!!


I dont know if it's been said, but for what it's worth, you have my sympathies. 8k pounds is probably a lot of money to you (it certainly would be to me!), and it's doubly frustrating, because you'll probably never see another run like that again.

I consider myself reasonably experienced, but I can easily see myself making the same mistake you did - checking the terms and conditions on one day, and depositing and playing on the next, without realizing the terms and conditions had changed overnight in the meantime.

Online casinos are very sophisticated when it comes to these kinds of traps - if you're going to play online, you have to be at least as sophisticated as they are. And it pays to remember even if you do everything right, they reserve the right to seize all your winnings anyway. It really is the wild west out there - it's not like playing in Vegas, or Atlantic City. There's no one to appeal to, if something goes wrong. --And that includes even running rigged games against the players.

It's also important to remember that affiliates - people who promote casinos and refer customers to their sites - make money only when players lose. So they have very little sympathy for a winner - because winners cost them money too.
 
Linus said:
It's also important to remember that affiliates - people who promote casinos and refer customers to their sites - make money only when players lose. So they have very little sympathy for a winner - because winners cost them money too.


Actually that's not strictly true - there are options for "CPA" or even % of deposits in most cases. Also, speaking personally, an affiliate's main concern is (should be) that a player likes the casino they were recommended, and winning is obviously part of that. It not only reflects well on the affiliate, but means the player will remain loyal to the casino.

But I accept many affiliates don't see this approach initially. More fool them.
 
Ditto to what Simmo! said.

For what it's worth, I've been in touch with Microgaming about this and they're going to try to have their programmers find a way to disable disallowed games for bonus play. This would eliminate problems like this. I hope to see this implemented in the near future.
 
Casinomeister said:
For what it's worth, I've been in touch with Microgaming about this and they're going to try to have their programmers find a way to disable disallowed games for bonus play. This would eliminate problems like this. I hope to see this implemented in the near future.

Bloody brilliant idea :D
 
I realize that I am at King Neptunes mercy here. And the terms say that the casino reserves the right not to pay at their own discretion. I really wish they would reconsider and honor my winnings.

Their "discretion" not to pay is to a player who made a mistake. An honest mistake. I played less than a day after the terms had changed from what I had read. I abided by the old terms; I did not violate them.

Look, I registered at King Neptunes to play. And I played a lot. And I cashed in a little. I wanted to walk away with a small profit (1,000), so I made a cash out and left the rest there to play later.
 
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