Casino Club closed account of 167'500 JACKPOT winner

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Well, I think it's a good thing that a high-profile case such as this will be argued in a court of law. If it turns out that Casino Club's fraud charge against the player involves nothing more than "bonus abuse," then I'll be very interested to know how the courts handle that argument.

It won't be.

I'm actually surprised the casino are doing this.

My experience is that when it comes to legal actions, the usual behaviour of casinos is 'Come sue us in Costa Rica/Malta/Antigua if you want to'. In other words it's made impossibly complicated, expensive and risky for the average player to get proper legal redress.
 
My experience is that when it comes to legal actions, the usual behaviour of casinos is 'Come sue us in Costa Rica/Malta/Antigua if you want to'. In other words it's made impossibly complicated, expensive and risky for the average player to get proper legal redress.

Spot on.

No average casino player is going to sue an outfit like this simply because it is so complicated to ascertain exactly what address to file legal papers on. You can probably guarantee that the address they use for correspondence is not their financial headquarters, and if you were to take legal action on an address which is invalid, it's going to be an expensive mistake, and quite simply not worth the risk. And as thelawnet stated, most of these casinos run from one of a few countries - although who knows whether this is just their servers - and personally, I have absolutely no knowledge of the legal system in places such as Costa Rica, meaning that unless by some stroke of good fortune, you happened to live there, the problem would come down to finding a local lawyer who was confident of handling this case, or flying out to there and trying to track someone down who can help.

And you can almost know for certain that no reps/lawyers of the casino in question would bother to turn up should you be successful in getting this to court. One man against a giant organisation rarely wins.

I would presume Casino Club would have taken this matter to the small claims court, if they have such a thing over there, obviously in an attempt to recoup 'illegitimate' wins by the player. This should prove interesting. The CC rep said, quite rightly, that if they return the money to the pool, someone wins that jackpot, and then the court decides the player should be paid, CC would have to pay it out of their own pocket, which isn't fair.

BIG flaw in that statement though. That tells me the player is counter-suing Casino Club for the jackpot win which was denied. Going upon the presumption that CC want previous withdrawals repaid, this is what the player is being sued for. But if the casino loses, that doesn't mean they are then legally required to pay this jackpot. They should of course, but most of the rogue casinos were given that status for non-payment to players, and nothing has been done about that. Hopefully, if this does proceed, in my opinion, irrespective of the decision, CC should pay this jackpot win if the player did nothing illegal to win it. Looking at both what the player provided, and what the casino has said, it doesn't appear that it was won due to anything dodgy, it was won fairly but further checks discovered something they don't like. If they refuse to pay because it's unfair on players who have not tried to cheat the casino - totally agree :thumbsup: - but if they are withholding because the player cheated in the past (and of course now they want this back) - not right :mad:

I wonder if the growing concern now is that CC are going to consider not returning these funds due to the seemingly improbable chance of contacting the player. The jackpot is not Casino Clubs', it is a culmination of wagers from thousands of players who played the game. They won't be losing their own money if they do pay.

Perhaps to attempt to regain respect, Casino Club should look at donating this money to charity. I think a prominant story about them donating over 150,000 Euro to such a cause would cause a positive stir, as they really need something to boost their image now after ongoing sagas such as this.

But, as I said a while ago, their main problem is still communication. How long does it take to post on here, to at least acknowledge this debate, if they are not prepared to address it.
 
Perhaps to attempt to regain respect, Casino Club should look at donating this money to charity. I think a prominant story about them donating over 150,000 Euro to such a cause would cause a positive stir, as they really need something to boost their image now after ongoing sagas such as this.


Eh?

It's not their money to donate. It belongs to the players, Casino Club shouldn't get what amounts to a giant tax write-off by making such a donation
 
True, but if the player who won it did nothing wrong, what reason other than their history do they have for refusing to pay it to him? I think it's quite clear that the player isn't going to get it.
 
Two interesting posts by 'realplayer' on the German forum:


Casino Club will be holding onto this jackpot money indefinitely. This is a never ending story. There is no legal action against me and not against CC. That is a lie of CC.
I am registered with CC under my correct address and my correct identity. They sent the security code (needed for payout) to this address and again and again the CC-magazine. Additionally they have my document of identification copy and the copy of a phone bill. They confirmed the receipt of the copies in August 2008. After the blockage of my account CC stopped all communication.
A further lie of CC is the following:
CC statement is the money is frozen. That is not true.
I have information of WebDollar: my CC account balance is 6 Euro and 94 Cent. That means, CC robbed 198750 euros of my account and not the money is frozen.


And in German, another post by the same player:

bei Casinomeister wurde das Thema im Januar noch diskutiert und es kam die berechtigte Frage auf "warum ist das Geld nicht wieder im Jackpot obwohl der Gewinn schon Monate her ist". CC behauptet, sie wollen erst das Ergebnis eines Gerichtsverfahrens abwarten. Nur gibt es kein Gerichtsverfahren und auch keine Klage.

My translation:

The subject of discussion at Casinomeister in January was why the money has not been returned to the jackpot after so many months. Casino Club claim that they are waiting for the results of a court case, but there is no court and no case.

Auch stimmt es nicht, da CC mich nicht erreichen kann. Den Anwalt von CC habe ich Anfang Januar angeschrieben, er htte sich also bei mir melden knnen aber das war nicht der Fall. Schwieriger ist es den CC zu erreichen. Nach Auskunft des CC Kundendienst geben sie keine Postanschrift heraus.
Es ist eine Lge von CC zu behaupten, sie htten mich verklagt genauso wenig wie ich CC verklagt habe.

It is also not true that Casino Club cannot reach me. I wrote to their lawyer at the start of January - he could therefore contact me, but has not done so. It is more difficult to reach Casino Club [than me] - Casino Club refuse to give me a correspondence address. It is a lie from CC to claim that they have sued me, as I have in fact sued them.

[Note: there are addresses here for the owners Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

In dem anwaltlichen Schreiben geht es um die Begrndung warum sie mir das Geld nicht zahlen, ist im typischen Stil der CC Sicherheitsabteilung geschrieben von dem ja schon einiges verffentlicht wurde.

The lawyer's letter describing why they will not pay is in the style of Casino Club's department, as discussed before [on forums]

Etwa 2 Monate vor meiner Kontosperrung soll ich an mehreren Tagen BlackJack gespielt haben, was durchaus sein kein. Ich soll aber nicht selbst gespielt haben, sondern einen bot (automatische Spielprogramm) verwendet haben. Dieser bot soll in der Lage sein die Spielergebnisse durch Berechnungen vorher zu sagen.
Also einen super-bot mit hellseherischen Fhigkeiten. Wie das funktionieren soll konnte man mir nicht sagen aber man wrde das an den gettigten Einstzen sehen.
Mit anderen Worten, CC unterstellt mir bzw. der bot-Software magische Fhigkeiten und ich sei damit in der Lage echte Zufallszahlen vorher zu sagen und damit einen finanziellen Vorteil zu erlangen.

[I think the following is Casino Club's claim, not the player's, but I'm not sure]
For about two months before I was banned I played blackjack on several days. Actually a bot was used. This bot can make calculations before play to predict the results of the hand. A clairvoyant bot in other words. The bot software has magical powers to read random numbers in advance and provide a financial advantage.


Hier noch ein original Zitat:
"Da die Gewinne aus den vorgenannten Aktionen fr weitere verschiedenartige Spiele genutzt wurden, wurden die gesamten Daten Ihres Spieler-Kontos, Ihr Nickname und Ihr Passwort gelscht. Ein Anspruch auf den ursprnglich ausgewiesenen Betrag auf Ihrem Spieler-Konto besteht nicht"
Zitat Ende


The original quote:
"As a result of these actions, your winnings on other games are void. Your account has been closed. You will not be paid your winnings."


Damit wird auch klar, der CasinoClub hatte nie die Absicht das Geld in den Jackpot zurck zu zahlen und hat es auch nicht eingefroren.

This shows Casino Club never intended to pay back the jackpot and it has not been frozen.
 
[I think the following is Casino Club's claim, not the player's, but I'm not sure]
For about two months before I was banned I played blackjack on several days. Actually a bot was used. This bot can make calculations before play to predict the results of the hand. A clairvoyant bot in other words. The bot software has magical powers to read random numbers in advance and provide a financial advantage.

That part just sounds sarcastic.

If the player's story is even partly true, he really needs to sue.
 
That part just sounds sarcastic.

If the player's story is even partly true, he really needs to sue.

Maybe translation has muddled things up, and the alleged bot simply calculates "perfect strategy".

If CC start claiming the player really had such a "clairvoyant bot", they will do themselves untold damage, especially since the size of the disputed jackpot will ensure this remains a major issue till something is resolved.

The forum only has the word of the player concerned about their side, and we only have the official statements by the casino to balance against this.

The balance in webdollar may simply be down to the legal machinery used to freeze the disputed funds, perhaps by moving them into some kind of escrow account pending the outcome of legal actions, after which they are either paid, or returned to the jackpot pool.

If the player is sueing CC, then in time we will hear more, and it will become a matter for court records which may well become available to the public once the action is decided.

I would not be surprised if the mainstream media began to pick up on this, since it involves a confiscation of a large jackpot because of an unconnected, and unprovable, event the previous year.
 
Etwa 2 Monate vor meiner Kontosperrung soll ich an mehreren Tagen BlackJack gespielt haben, was durchaus sein kein. Ich soll aber nicht selbst gespielt haben, sondern einen bot (automatische Spielprogramm) verwendet haben. Dieser bot soll in der Lage sein die Spielergebnisse durch Berechnungen vorher zu sagen.
Also einen super-bot mit hellseherischen Fhigkeiten. Wie das funktionieren soll konnte man mir nicht sagen aber man wrde das an den gettigten Einstzen sehen.
Mit anderen Worten, CC unterstellt mir bzw. der bot-Software magische Fhigkeiten und ich sei damit in der Lage echte Zufallszahlen vorher zu sagen und damit einen finanziellen Vorteil zu erlangen.

To stop any assumpties, this is my attempt to translate this part as close as possible to the text provieded:

About 2 months before my account was locked, I am said to have played BlackJack on several days, which is absolutely possible. However, I am said to not have played myself, but have used a bot. This bot is said to be able to predict game results by doing calculations [upfront]. So to say a 'super bot' with clairvoyant abilities. They were not able to tell me how this exactly works, but they were able to identify that regarding the placed wagers.
In other words, CC assume that I have (resp. the bot-software has) magical abilities and I am said to be capable to predict real random numbers and to gain a financial advantage [by applying these skills].
 
That's a good translation hzock2.

But, if that is what Casino Club actually said, it is quite frankly unbelievably pathetic. So they are saying a bot has been created which is capable of predicting random results. Hmm. Let's think about this.

Either their software is not fair, because they fail to adhere to the shuffling which the blurb says occurs each xxx times, or this programme has compromised their software. If it's the latter, they should remove this game, along with all others until a full investigation has been carried out. They shouldn't be operating a game if it's possible to tamper with it. Therefore we can presume that's not the case. It's not improbable to create such a programme, but personally I can't see it. It would involve a huge group taking millions out of casinos, not one guy flatbetting on blackjack.

If their software isn't fair, then a card counting programme might have been responsible. Those are available, I know of a couple in existence. Therefore, if they stated words to that affect, fair enough. Yet using the term clairvoyant just defies belief. If the player used a card counting bot, it didn't make predictions or calculations, it used previous data to confirm what cards were due to appear. Hence, it knew what hand the dealer and player had, and what they would have. Therefore, it could place higher wagers when it knew the player would win, and likewise lower ones when the player would lose. But I've seen enough of the players' logs to know this isn't the case. There again, a player could quite easily write all the cards down and come to the same conclusions, although it would be more complex. Still, it's against the t and cs, so CC are within their rights.

What frustrates me more than anything here is that the blackjack bot is completely irrelevant to the issue in hand. They cannot refuse to pay the jackpot win due to past play - unless the win was on a bonus and that same play occured on both blackjack and video poker.

BUT, they are using that very reason. If they said the player used a video poker bot, it hardly gave him an unfair advantage but they could say the use of 3rd party software is against their terms and hence he won't be paid. They are saying he played blackjack with a bot, and this is a justifiable reason for refusing all wins.

It's disappointing that the forum is in German. Evidently, it is still being talked about and as translation programmes are not perfect, getting a good transcription isn't possible.

However, someone is lying here. Either the player, or the casino. The player says Casino Club have not contacted him, they are not suing him (after all, just why would they?) but the casino said a legal resolution was pending, thus why the jackpot money was in limbo. But it's not. They paid him, and then took it back. So they still have it.

I can't help but feel sorry for this 'Mike' guy. Deep down, I would love him to sue Casino Club and win. If he is completely legit, I be tempted to thrown in a defamation suit and really hit Casino Club where it hurts. Yet I know that the chances of him winning are virtually zero. One unknown guy against a huge company is destined to fail. Not that that would put me off. So I hope it doesn't him.

This story doesn't seem to have hit the news much. At least not here. I don't know all that much about Germany's press, but here in the UK, some of the tabloids would love a story like this. Perhaps this might improve the chance of a resolution here. My fear is that this is going to die away. The player won't get the money, and it won't be returned to the jackpot pool either. I'd like to see a statement from Casino Club. We are probably the only people wondering what's going to happen here. As far as all other players at the casino are concerned, the jackpot was won. It was posted on their newsletter that all members are emailed. I just wonder what they might say about this.
 
That's a good translation hzock2.

But, if that is what Casino Club actually said, it is quite frankly unbelievably pathetic. So they are saying a bot has been created which is capable of predicting random results. Hmm. Let's think about this.

Either their software is not fair, because they fail to adhere to the shuffling which the blurb says occurs each xxx times, or this programme has compromised their software. If it's the latter, they should remove this game, along with all others until a full investigation has been carried out. They shouldn't be operating a game if it's possible to tamper with it. Therefore we can presume that's not the case. It's not improbable to create such a programme, but personally I can't see it. It would involve a huge group taking millions out of casinos, not one guy flatbetting on blackjack.

If their software isn't fair, then a card counting programme might have been responsible. Those are available, I know of a couple in existence. Therefore, if they stated words to that affect, fair enough. Yet using the term clairvoyant just defies belief. If the player used a card counting bot, it didn't make predictions or calculations, it used previous data to confirm what cards were due to appear. Hence, it knew what hand the dealer and player had, and what they would have. Therefore, it could place higher wagers when it knew the player would win, and likewise lower ones when the player would lose. But I've seen enough of the players' logs to know this isn't the case. There again, a player could quite easily write all the cards down and come to the same conclusions, although it would be more complex. Still, it's against the t and cs, so CC are within their rights.

What frustrates me more than anything here is that the blackjack bot is completely irrelevant to the issue in hand. They cannot refuse to pay the jackpot win due to past play - unless the win was on a bonus and that same play occured on both blackjack and video poker.

BUT, they are using that very reason. If they said the player used a video poker bot, it hardly gave him an unfair advantage but they could say the use of 3rd party software is against their terms and hence he won't be paid. They are saying he played blackjack with a bot, and this is a justifiable reason for refusing all wins.

It's disappointing that the forum is in German. Evidently, it is still being talked about and as translation programmes are not perfect, getting a good transcription isn't possible.

However, someone is lying here. Either the player, or the casino. The player says Casino Club have not contacted him, they are not suing him (after all, just why would they?) but the casino said a legal resolution was pending, thus why the jackpot money was in limbo. But it's not. They paid him, and then took it back. So they still have it.

I can't help but feel sorry for this 'Mike' guy. Deep down, I would love him to sue Casino Club and win. If he is completely legit, I be tempted to thrown in a defamation suit and really hit Casino Club where it hurts. Yet I know that the chances of him winning are virtually zero. One unknown guy against a huge company is destined to fail. Not that that would put me off. So I hope it doesn't him.

This story doesn't seem to have hit the news much. At least not here. I don't know all that much about Germany's press, but here in the UK, some of the tabloids would love a story like this. Perhaps this might improve the chance of a resolution here. My fear is that this is going to die away. The player won't get the money, and it won't be returned to the jackpot pool either. I'd like to see a statement from Casino Club. We are probably the only people wondering what's going to happen here. As far as all other players at the casino are concerned, the jackpot was won. It was posted on their newsletter that all members are emailed. I just wonder what they might say about this.

A card counting program does not predict the result, it predicts PROBABILITIES that certain outcomes will occur. When the deck is rich in "10" cards, the game will be in the player's favour overall, and this is when bets should be increased. When the deck is rich in low cards, the dealer is favoured, so this is the time to ride things out with low bets. Such programs are ahead of mere "perfect strategy" bots, as they track previous hand data. They have to know when the deck is shuffled though, otherwise they can go spectacularly wrong.

If the argument is over a blackjack "bot", of whatever nature, HOW COME HIS ACCOUNT WASN'T LOCKED THERE & THEN? This, by far, is his strongest weapon in court. There is a strong possibility that the judge would reject the "bot" argument since the player was allowed to continue depositing, playing, AND LOSING for the two months following this, and up to the time of the Jackpot win. The Jackpot win would then be looked at as a separate incident in it's own right. In casino terms, a moment of time where the balance is zero marks each new "contract" between player and casino (this is the rule CASINOS often use themselves when describing how promotions work). IF the player did NOT use this "clairvoyant bot" between the zero balance and the jackpot win, he should win any court case, as the casino would not only have to prove bot use, but prove it took place in the disputed "contract".
The player could further strengthen his case by having had a successful cashout paid AFTER allegedly using the bot, and with no further evidence of bot use submitted between that cashout and the disputed jackpot. This would be pretty clear (although circumstantial) evidence of the casino CHOOSING who to pay, rather than sticking to the rules.
Such a case should attract the "no win, no fee" firms, unless these are banned in Germany. This would change the situation from one of small player vs big company to something more balanced. These "no win, no fee" firms know what they are doing, and have a HUGE incentive to win their cases, they don't get paid if they lose. If such a firm refuses a case, it is because they do not think it is strong enough to be worth the risk of losing and not getting paid. As well as the jackpot, the player could sue for further damages for defamation - he has been branded a cheat by the casino. To defend this, the casino would have the lesser burden of merely proving bot use at any time in the account whilst being against the rules; however, can they PROVE this to the level required in a civil case where THEY are seeking to confiscate a win that was most certainly NOT the direct result of bot use.

If this player really is being honest, then he HAS to be putting together a legal action, although perhaps hoping the casino will do what often happens in these cases, offer an "out of court" settlement but ban the player from the casino because "the business relationship has irretrievably broken down".
CC have one HELL of a lot to lose reputation wise should they indeed LOSE such a legal case, so they had better be sure they know what they are doing, and are sure their facts are right.
 
I'm as curious as the player to see what bot was used, considering Casino Club themselves refused to divulge that information. To my knowledge, the only sort of bots available for blackjack are the standard perfect strategy ones, along with a few, virtually untested, ones which basically card count. They work perfectly if you can find a casino which doesn't shuffle the deck. The only information the programme needs is the amount of decks, and of course the amount of hands. So as long as this information is available, you can use it. I've seen a couple in action and they do actually work. I don't know that I'd agree with them calculating probabilities, because provided the deck is not shuffled, the programme keeps track of where the cards are in a deck, in much the same way a card counter in a B&M casino would, therefore it knows for a fact what cards will be dealt. But if the deck is shuffled, which virtually occurs everywhere, unless you can establish when this occurs (i.e. some do it after every hand, which would make using this kind of bot impossible) there's little point in using the system, as sooner or later the chain is going to break and you'd have to start afresh.

However, I'm sure the player can't have been using one of these. For a start, as these programmes go for many , I really can't fathom one single person using it. Moreso, the logs show the guy was flatbetting, so he can't have been using this system.

As vwm said, the player really does need to sue them. There must be someone who is prepared to take this on. If only I spoke German and my firm would allow me to tackle a case like this, I would jump at the chance. It's so clear cut. The player won a jackpot, they paid him, they advertised that they paid him, then presumably they found something in the records of this player which they didn't like, and so they took it back. It would be interesting to hear from Moneybookers as to what logic CC gave for requesting the money back. And that is the biggest mistake they made. If they really do believe this player was abusing their casino and won unfairly, had they left the money in his account, they could have him for fraud. But they can't, as they took it back. So whatever this player does, he's not going to be countersued unless they are looking at recouping what he may or may not have won when using a blackjack bot. In my opinion, I think they took the jackpot win back to compensate themselves, and they never counted on such a huge debate about it.

I notice their rep still visits here from time to time. Why not actually comment on this? Either the player is lying, or you are. It would be nice to know the truth.
 
I'm as curious as the player to see what bot was used, considering Casino Club themselves refused to divulge that information. To my knowledge, the only sort of bots available for blackjack are the standard perfect strategy ones, along with a few, virtually untested, ones which basically card count. They work perfectly if you can find a casino which doesn't shuffle the deck. The only information the programme needs is the amount of decks, and of course the amount of hands. So as long as this information is available, you can use it. I've seen a couple in action and they do actually work. I don't know that I'd agree with them calculating probabilities, because provided the deck is not shuffled, the programme keeps track of where the cards are in a deck, in much the same way a card counter in a B&M casino would, therefore it knows for a fact what cards will be dealt. But if the deck is shuffled, which virtually occurs everywhere, unless you can establish when this occurs (i.e. some do it after every hand, which would make using this kind of bot impossible) there's little point in using the system, as sooner or later the chain is going to break and you'd have to start afresh.

However, I'm sure the player can't have been using one of these. For a start, as these programmes go for many , I really can't fathom one single person using it. Moreso, the logs show the guy was flatbetting, so he can't have been using this system.

As vwm said, the player really does need to sue them. There must be someone who is prepared to take this on. If only I spoke German and my firm would allow me to tackle a case like this, I would jump at the chance. It's so clear cut. The player won a jackpot, they paid him, they advertised that they paid him, then presumably they found something in the records of this player which they didn't like, and so they took it back. It would be interesting to hear from Moneybookers as to what logic CC gave for requesting the money back. And that is the biggest mistake they made. If they really do believe this player was abusing their casino and won unfairly, had they left the money in his account, they could have him for fraud. But they can't, as they took it back. So whatever this player does, he's not going to be countersued unless they are looking at recouping what he may or may not have won when using a blackjack bot. In my opinion, I think they took the jackpot win back to compensate themselves, and they never counted on such a huge debate about it.

I notice their rep still visits here from time to time. Why not actually comment on this? Either the player is lying, or you are. It would be nice to know the truth.

You have fallen into the same trap the casino seems to have done. Even though there may be 6 decks at the start, and you know they are NOT shuffled, all you can know is the initial composition in terms of how many cards of each value remain in the shoe, you simply CANNOT know for a fact that, say, card 12 is an Ace, and card 23 is a King. It is all down to probabilities. Perfect strategy is the default, based on calculations that do not take into account any cards used in previous hands. Card Counting seeks to recalculate "perfect strategy" using what remains in the shoe. This allows for changes where decisions are marginal, but also allows for increases of stake where the shoe becomes heavily weighted because many low cards leave in the initial few hands. This compensates for the poor performance of those early hands, and the increased stake is what confers the overall advantage to the player.
Flat Betting for hours on end would indicate a simple basic strategy bot, one that would NOT give the player any advantage UNLESS it was used for clearing a +EV bonus. The casino should have noticed this at the time. This is a well worn strategy, bot or no bot, and such excessive Blackjack play and winning should have been caught for audit long before the jackpot incident. This can easily be used in court to demonstrate that it was probable that the casino knew this player was playing, and winning, through endless hours of Blackjack play, yet only acted once the player won a significant amount on a SLOT. This would demonstrate the act of choosing when to enforce a rule, and when to let it pass, and would further show such decisions to have been made to favour the casino, and NOT in the player's best interests. The player's best interests would have been served by banning him from the casino so that he could never have been in the situation of having won such a jackpot, only to have it confiscated.
If the money was already paid, and THEN confiscated from Moneybookers, then this makes the case even STRONGER for the player, and also puts Moneybookers in the frame, and they may be required to produce evidence as to the procedure behind this removal of funds already paid. Moneybookers will not be happy with this, as it undermines confidence in their brand, and if they are found to have acted inappropriately, they could have the regulators on their case. This would have been FAR worse if this were a UK player - worse for the casino that is. A UK player could complain directly to the IOM and/or FSA about the part Moneybookers played in this, and your firm could take this on;)

If the player does NOT sue, then the suspicion will be that he was, after all, a fraud, and has walked away from this huge sum knowing that his case stands no chance in court. If he is legit, he will at least make every effort to try the courts, and only stop if the COURT refuses to hear the case, or he cannot find a firm out there willing to take this on. Even if he has to agree to a 50/50 split to get a firm on board, this is still better than nothing.
 
I have to say, with your knowledge on this, having you as an expert witness would probably go a long way! My theory is that the player WAS using a bot when he played blackjack. It was probably just a standard perfect strategy one, and it doesn't explain how his balance got to 30k Euros. But somehow (unless he did actually deposit 30k) his balance reached that. Perhaps he then used another bot (I never played VP on Casino Club so I don't know whether the autohold is used) and played 25 Euro hands. He then hit the jackpot, in both senses of the word, and withdrew. Casino Club paid him, but later checks by their oh-so stringent security revealed this flat betting. From that they saw the player had done this many times in the past, and so retracted their payment to this player.

The player is quite obviously annoyed about this, and seeks to get this payment back. He is legit, with a real name, address, card details etc, BUT he thinks that because he used a bot, and the casino can prove it, he is in the wrong. This is true, but it depends on if the deposit was on a bonus or not. If it wasn't, it's hard to link the two together. The jackpot is not Casino Club's money, so whether they pay it or not doesn't affect them. Hence, where has it gone?

So, the player can't risk suing because in all likelihood, he will be found out, and even while we can see there shouldn't be a link, Casino Club can bring this across well enough to convince the court. However, if as vwm said, Germany has the no-win-no-fee arrangement, provided a firm can be found that's willing to represent him, it's a goer.

On the other hand, if the player has done nothing wrong, he can tackle this well. One case to retrieve the jackpot win, and another for defamation. The latter will be strong. Casino Club's rep on this very forum called him a cheat. They may have said similar elsewhere. Enough people read this forum for the players' reputation to have suffered severely. It would be even better if this affected him in the real world as well as the online one. He could get more that way.

But all the above is dependent on him not using a bot. If he admits this to a legal firm, they probably won't want to represent him. If he doesn't, when they find out it could invalidate the contract and the no-win-no-fee wouldn't apply. So severe financial implications could occur.

If I remember correct, I'm sure the company behind Casino Club is listed on the London Stock Exchange. So potentially, he could tackle them through the Serious Fraud Office (they usually aren't interested unless the value is of 1 million or more, but I reckon this is of big enough importance to attract their attention) and I could just jump at the chance to represent him :D But sadly, there's virtually no chance my firm would want this case. As a rule we don't deal in anything gambling related, we are mainly concerned with contract law especially those in the family and employment division. And my position in the company is far too low down the pecking order to be able to mount any challenge to this :mad: But never mind.....

Perhaps any native Germans in this forum could keep a check on the other forum. It will be interesting to see how this progresses. Evidently we aren't going to hear anything from the casino so it's up to the player. Either way, this is going to take a long time, and if the player does sue, it will be a long drawn out process. I just hope I am not alone in wanting a resolution one way or the other. Either the player is a fraud, and the money is returned to the pot (with interest, if it's being stored in one of Casino Clubs' accounts) or the player is paid, with an apology from the casino. A big one, at that.
 
Eh up.
Less than surprised to see another "bot" issue on the forum and there will be more to come.
Agree with your posts VWM, as I usually do, but I think you are missing an angle CC may well take in court to prove the winnings are illegitimate.
If they can prove to the courts satisfaction that a bot was used initially to win and increase the players balance they could then argue that the jackpot was won with these funds and thus since the money used to make the wager was illegitimately won so was the money wagered to win the jackpot.
Of course this would mean that the player had not made a successful cashout since bot play and the jackpot was not won from a fresh deposit.
I dare say that is the angle they are pursuing already.

Anyway it is my belief that bot play can not be proved in a court of law by merely presenting playlogs.
At best from such evidence one could only consider there was the possibility of a bot being used.
There can be no conclusive evidence of bot play. There will always remain reasonable doubt.
The only exception to this would be if the game was not entirely random and results could be predicted or in other words the game was rigged and the offending algorithm had been hacked.

IF The player is genuine and IF Casino Clubs case rests entirely on proving previous bot play was used and IF I were a Solicitor I would take the case tomorrow on a no win no pay basis and earn myself a nice fee. ;)
 
Is the only issue here whether the player used a bot? If he did, how do they know? Is there a way to tell? If not i would sue the h.ll out of Casino Club.

Really sounds like they just dont want to pay the huge jackpot the guy won.
 
Eh up.
Less than surprised to see another "bot" issue on the forum and there will be more to come.
Agree with your posts VWM, as I usually do, but I think you are missing an angle CC may well take in court to prove the winnings are illegitimate.
If they can prove to the courts satisfaction that a bot was used initially to win and increase the players balance they could then argue that the jackpot was won with these funds and thus since the money used to make the wager was illegitimately won so was the money wagered to win the jackpot.
Of course this would mean that the player had not made a successful cashout since bot play and the jackpot was not won from a fresh deposit.
I dare say that is the angle they are pursuing already.

Anyway it is my belief that bot play can not be proved in a court of law by merely presenting playlogs.
At best from such evidence one could only consider there was the possibility of a bot being used.
There can be no conclusive evidence of bot play. There will always remain reasonable doubt.
The only exception to this would be if the game was not entirely random and results could be predicted or in other words the game was rigged and the offending algorithm had been hacked.

IF The player is genuine and IF Casino Clubs case rests entirely on proving previous bot play was used and IF I were a Solicitor I would take the case tomorrow on a no win no pay basis and earn myself a nice fee. ;)

Potentially yes, but bear in mind that the judge is highly unlikely to have any prior information as to what exactly a bot is, and what it does, so as you correctly said merely presenting play logs and saying 'look here, this guy played for x hours straight without a break, therefore he must be a bot' would fail because a defence could quite easily be 'allow me to play for x hours to prove that it is humanly possible'. That of course depends on just how long the session went on for.

However, my continuous problem with this saga is Casino Club can NOT rely on precedent for their reasoning for not paying. As was stated long ago, this money isn't theirs, so the only justifiable reason for not paying, or should I say, taking the money back, is because it's unfair on the other players. Do we really think that is the case?

Moreso than that, this is a major cockup on their behalf. They paid the player and later found something to be wrong. Here in the UK, if a bank pays you money you know isn't yours, whether it be in error or whatever, they are legally allowed to retrieve it. So if you spend it, ultimately you will still have to pay it back. My point here is that when Casino Club's bank paid the player, it WAS his money. He won it. Therefore, what reason did they give for requesting it back? It clearly wasn't made in error. Well actually, perhaps it was. But we aren't talking about the actual payment here, as that was no error - he won it, but it took this jackpot win before the casino realised what had allegedly gone on. Therefore, they made an error. A big one at that, but an error all the same. In most real life instances, the company has to live by that error, yet in this example somehow they were able to address it rather rapidly. If there is some arrangement between Casino Club and Moneybookers whereby funds can be taken in a snap, it really should have us all at least thinking about what these arrangements are, and potential ramifications they could have on all of us.

If my memory serves me right, Casino Club actually took the entire withdrawal away from Mike's Moneybookers account. Something like 30k more than the jackpot. Hence, they cannot just say they're refusing to pay the jackpot win because of past play, as the entire withdrawal was confiscated. There's now more to this than just the jackpot win. Meaning - they have also taken his deposit. If those comments were from Casino Club, they catagorically stated they will not be returning any monies, including his deposit. That's something that may come back to haunt them if this player does sue.
 
Is the only issue here whether the player used a bot? If he did, how do they know? Is there a way to tell? If not i would sue the h.ll out of Casino Club.

Really sounds like they just dont want to pay the huge jackpot the guy won.

I think that is exactly it. We've heard so many conflicting stories that noone does know for certain.

It seems the player in question played blackjack using a bot. His playlogs suggest that, but it's open to interpretation. He then went on to win that VP jackpot.

Casino Club paid him. They then realised he might have been using a bot, and took the money back. For some reason, they also sued him. WHY is a good question. But apparently, he provided a false address so they can't contact him.

The player says there is no legal action from them. He has given the right details but their lawyer hasn't responded to him. He now wants to sue them.

Confused yet? I think we all are.

As far as we know now, they took the money back and it's in limbo. The player doesn't have it, nor has it been returned to the jackpot pool. The casino says they can't return it until legal proceedings have been finalised, but the player says this hasn't occured.

Just what is going on is a mystery. And once again Casino Club's lack of communication does not help their cause.
 
Eh up.
Less than surprised to see another "bot" issue on the forum and there will be more to come.
Agree with your posts VWM, as I usually do, but I think you are missing an angle CC may well take in court to prove the winnings are illegitimate.
If they can prove to the courts satisfaction that a bot was used initially to win and increase the players balance they could then argue that the jackpot was won with these funds and thus since the money used to make the wager was illegitimately won so was the money wagered to win the jackpot.
Of course this would mean that the player had not made a successful cashout since bot play and the jackpot was not won from a fresh deposit.
I dare say that is the angle they are pursuing already.

Anyway it is my belief that bot play can not be proved in a court of law by merely presenting playlogs.
At best from such evidence one could only consider there was the possibility of a bot being used.
There can be no conclusive evidence of bot play. There will always remain reasonable doubt.
The only exception to this would be if the game was not entirely random and results could be predicted or in other words the game was rigged and the offending algorithm had been hacked.

IF The player is genuine and IF Casino Clubs case rests entirely on proving previous bot play was used and IF I were a Solicitor I would take the case tomorrow on a no win no pay basis and earn myself a nice fee. ;)

I know for a fact that a bot exist for Casino Club, and up to 70+ others if you pay for the "premium" version. It is a flat betting basic strategy bot, used to extract the best outcome from +EV blackjack friendly boni. The same internet site also sells a Video Poker bot. Casinos usually use play history as "proof" of bot use, they cannot get real "smoking gun" proof.

The legalities could be complex if indeed the player DID use a bot. However, what has he actually done. he has "breached the terms of a consumer contract", he has NOT "committed fraud". Here in the UK, it is ILLEGAL for a company to apply a PENALTY for such a breach, this is covered by consumer contract laws, companies can ONLY charge for the costs they incur in pursuing and remedying the breach, plus any beneft that may have been gained by the breach.
Interpreting this for this case, the casino claims that 30K was a benefit obtained by the player through breaching the rules. Provided the player successfully withdrew this 30K, was not banned, and was allowed to deposit and play again (thus further risking their own funds), the casino has a worryingly leaky case for anything other than the return of the original 30K.
Worse for the casino, they didn't deny the withdrawal, they took it back out of his Moneybookers account without permission of the account holder. This is ONLY allowed under specific circumstances, and companies are NOT allowed to simply dip in to take back what is merely a disputed payment. In legal terms, a disputed payment stays where it is, until a legal action is concluded. By pre-empting the legal process by acting as though it has already won (taking back the money), CC has left itself open to being before a "hostile" court, the judge perhaps viewing this action as a circumvention of the courts juristiction. The court would be more sympathetic to the player as a result, and since these cases are resolved by balance of probability, the casino might come over as a high handed and bullying corporation pitted against a simple "man in the street".

CC may believe the player KNOWS he has no chance, and will NEVER go to court, but are hanging onto the jackpot just in case. The player should call their bluff, and serve papers. This would in all probability pave the way for an out of court settlement, where CC would not have to admit they acted wrongly, and the player at least gets a portion of the winnings, perhaps with the 30K + "costs" deducted. CC can then close the matter and repair the integrity of it's progressive jackpots.

To force the issue, another body could take action based on the question "who has the jackpot money, and are they entitled to keep it?"
Normally, where entrants have contributed to a prize pool and, for whatever reason, the prize is not awarded, the accumulated entry fees must be returned to the entrants.

A progressive is just a sequential lottery. Each spin or hand adds a stake to the pool, and grants the player a chance at winning it all. In this case, returning the jackpot to the pool is the only viable way CC can comply with this principle, and this seems to be what all the other players are arguing about, even if they accept the casino's view that the original winner cheated.

If this was over a more modest amount, this issue would be nowhere, but it is over a pretty big progressive win, and CC have to realise that simply by waiting this out, it will NOT go away until the missing funds are accounted for one way or the other. Other players could also worry that THEY may win a progressive, and have it confiscated without a proper right of appeal, and for whatever reason the casino sees fit. This would be quite a deterrent from playing the progressives there, and maybe even the whole casino.

While this bot is out there, and CC are only able to INFER that it was PROBABLY used, then INNOCENT players could still end up labeled as "bot cheats" with no way to fight back in order for CC to get rid of the guilty ones.
This is all completely unnecessary, as the bot gives no advantage to the player, and Microgaming casinos have one installed on nearly all their blackjack and VP games for players to freely use (even if the odd casino bans it's use when a bonus has been claimed).
 
According to another forum the jackpot has been hit again (70000 Euro, 'rainer1323' ). This makes this issue even more interesting for the case, that the 167k jackpot winner would indeed have been a fraudster. Will the money then be returned to the current jackpot or is rainer1323 the legit winner of 70k+167k ?
 
According to another forum the jackpot has been hit again (70000 Euro, 'rainer1323' ). This makes this issue even more interesting for the case, that the 167k jackpot winner would indeed have been a fraudster. Will the money then be returned to the current jackpot or is rainer1323 the legit winner of 70k+167k ?

I doubt 'rainer1323' would get it. That wouldn't really be fair for them to just give it to him. And of course, unless that player reads this forum, or the German one, he has no reason to suspect anything. Arguably, he would have won it should the player who did win it either didn't win, or it was instantly returned. But as it hasn't been, the fairest thing to do is just return it to the pool. That way, someone's going to get a nice treat.

Unless of course the 'fraudster' isn't a fraudster, and thus he should get it returned.

Perhaps I'm a cynic. In fact I know I am :D but I don't reckon it's ever going to materialise.
 
I doubt 'rainer1323' would get it. That wouldn't really be fair for them to just give it to him. And of course, unless that player reads this forum, or the German one, he has no reason to suspect anything. Arguably, he would have won it should the player who did win it either didn't win, or it was instantly returned. But as it hasn't been, the fairest thing to do is just return it to the pool. That way, someone's going to get a nice treat.

Unless of course the 'fraudster' isn't a fraudster, and thus he should get it returned.

Perhaps I'm a cynic. In fact I know I am :D but I don't reckon it's ever going to materialise.


All the same, this latest win opens a can of worms for CC. Had they not dithered, and returned the jackpot to the pool then rainer1323 would have received it. Now, if CC return it to the pool, it will be obvious, and rainer1323 may start digging, or be tipped off. If they cover it up by keeping it so many players never know what happened, the few that do will create such a stink that the issue WILL eventually have to be dealt with. CC may now have to offer rainer1323 a settlement to induce him to forfeit his potential rights to the 167K should the original player be found a "cheat" and lose the court case, or drop the case.
 
All the same, this latest win opens a can of worms for CC. Had they not dithered, and returned the jackpot to the pool then rainer1323 would have received it. Now, if CC return it to the pool, it will be obvious, and rainer1323 may start digging, or be tipped off. If they cover it up by keeping it so many players never know what happened, the few that do will create such a stink that the issue WILL eventually have to be dealt with. CC may now have to offer rainer1323 a settlement to induce him to forfeit his potential rights to the 167K should the original player be found a "cheat" and lose the court case, or drop the case.

Amid all this confusion, one thing is for certain. This is going to be very interesting.....
 
According to another forum the jackpot has been hit again (70000 Euro, 'rainer1323' ). This makes this issue even more interesting for the case, that the 167k jackpot winner would indeed have been a fraudster. Will the money then be returned to the current jackpot or is rainer1323 the legit winner of 70k+167k ?

Of course rainier123 should not be paid the 167k. If the jackpot had been 167k it would attract considerably more play and somebody else might have won it.

He chose to play a game that offers a 70k jackpot, and he won it.

I was playing at William Hill a while back and due to a server error I was unable to login. About 2 hours later the 130k jackpot had been hit by somebody else. That was tough luck for me, but you can only win what's on offer.

BTW, I've asked the player to answer some questions about his behaviour. See here:

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He has not responded to my post although he is active on that forum.

That doesn't speak well.
 
There's a reply on that site suggesting the screenshots are faked :confused:
 
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