Bellavegas(Microgaming) won't pay 20K

[spearmaster]

The following chart illustrates the three categories of online casinos, at least from my experience.

Note that two of the paths lead to becoming a Rogue.

[silcnlayc]

Purty picture !

[spearmaster]

I might also point out that this graph can be interpreted differently...

Replace "recommended" with "winner" and "rogue" with "loser".

Then replace "honest" with "cautious" and "dishonest" with "reckless".

Then, in your mind, replace "online casino" with "player".

[thelawnet]

Originally Posted by Pinababy69

I give up...you are just f**ing rude Caruso. Was it really necessary to post that long a post picking apart every single word she said?

To be fair she did jump right in blatantly accuse someone of fraud, cheating, conspiracy and lying about where she lived, when as far as I can tell from the start of this thread it has been clear that the player gave her address as Las Vegas, and you can bet every dollar that the player won that if there had been any issue of fraud or lying that the casino could have used against the player they would have done so.

I think pre-emptively accusing somebody of fraud is a lot 'f***ing ruder' than replying to a post pointing out that it is wrong as caruso did....

Maybe I'm wrong....

[Let_It_Ride]

Originally Posted by thelawnet

To be fair she did jump right in blatantly accuse someone of fraud, cheating, conspiracy and lying about where she lived, when as far as I can tell from the start of this thread it has been clear that the player gave her address as Las Vegas, and you can bet every dollar that the player won that if there had been any issue of fraud or lying that the casino could have used against the player they would have done so.

I think pre-emptively accusing somebody of fraud is a lot 'f***ing ruder' than replying to a post pointing out that it is wrong as caruso did....

Maybe I'm wrong....

IMO not wrong at all

so thank you for you post, as some of the comments on here have been bugging me all day, but I just couldn't find the words to express myself.

Maybe caruso cld have been more diplomatic but it was not fair he was the only one to get his wrists slapped, suzecat was out of order as well.

[suzecat]

Originally Posted by Let_It_Ride

IMO not wrong at all

so thank you for you post, as some of the comments on here have been bugging me all day, but I just couldn't find the words to express myself.

Maybe caruso cld have been more diplomatic but it was not fair he was the only one to get his wrists slapped, suzecat was out of order as well.

It must be "fried suzecat" day -- and I didn't get the memo!

Seriously folks, I stepped up to the plate (once it was pointed out that many players use the "pound edge") and admitted my lack in this area. So here are mea culpas for where they are due and thanks to the others.

[Pinababy69]

Originally Posted by suzecat

Seriously folks, I stepped up to the plate (once it was pointed out that many players use the "pound edge") and admitted my lack in this area. So here are mea culpas for where they are due and thanks to the others.

And therein lies the difference. My problem is not with information or opinions presented, it's with the presentation itself. Anyway, agree to disagree on my behalf. And I'm done.

[Johnny Empire]

Just for information, Lake Palace paid me out a little under $1k in 3 days. Req'd withdrawal Sunday, paid Tuesday.

I am over 21 though.

[caruso]

Good post, Vesuvio. Also Thelawnet's remarks - funny how you can seek to blacken a player who has in fact committed no wrong in the alleged department without ANY reprisal, but forecefully and rightly challenge / ridicule the blackening attempt and you practically consign yourself to the slag heap. Ha.

Whatever.

Back on topic. This is eCOGRA's stance on the matter (posted here at their behest):

1. It is an isolated incident, that happened more than 9 months ago;

2. It is a known fact in this industry that no foolproof system exists to identify underage gamblers, and it becomes even more complex when trying to match players in the 18-21 group against the laws of hundreds of countries and states;

3. When the player was identified, the operator followed eCOGRA's instructions on how to settle the player (I've always said that I believe the operator may have paid the player if this was our advice). The action they followed is also in accordance with the UK Gambling Commission's proposed license conditions and codes, which does not require contributions to third parties;

4. Since identifying this player, we are able to confirm that this operator has tightened its controls around underage gambling; and

5. PwC performed an investigative compliance review on this operator in October 2005, and no further evidence of registered underage gamblers was found.

If there were multiple instances of underage players and a failure to address this, then I have absolutely no doubt that they would lose their seal. But to withdraw it based on something that could conceivably happen at any reputable operator, is unfair and unreasonable.

My comments:

1) I see no reason to not take eCOGRA's word on this.

2) Agreed.

However, since Andrew mentions it, there is a side issue here of Nevada law: why are Microgaming casinos accepting signups from players from states where online gambling is illegal?

It seems to me you cannot break one law, but you can break another - and it will be entirely at the casino's descretion which will be enforced - dependent on the nature of your deposting / withdrawing? I will take a guess that Mr. Slots Kanot Kashout from Nevada will never be found to be breaking laws, while Miss Twen Ti Kay, also from Nevada but only 19, will find herself suprisingly caught up.

Microgaming casinos cannot choose which laws they enforce. Either they enforce ALL laws or NO laws - not those that suit them.

3) Agreed.

But why did the casino even contact eCOGRA? This is what should have happened:

"Dear Miss 20K.

It has come to our attention, after performing routine security checks following your large cashout, that as a Nevada resident you are technically underage. Regretfully, we are at this point obliged to close all your accounts with the Grand Prive Casino Group. Your £13,000 GPB cashout will be processed and sent to you shortly."

What actually happened? The casino went crying to eCOGRA, looking for them to get them off the hook and out of a big payment (that's my interpretation, not eCOGRA's). eCOGRA were admittedly in a tricky position, and had to recommend the casino not pay.

So rather than everyone being happy, now the casino is rogued by a reputable authority, eCOGRA take a load of understandable flack, the anti-gambling hardonites in the US admin have cannon fodder for their campaign, and NOBODY is happy.

All because Bella Vegas went crying to eCOGRA and didn't just handle the matter internally and properly and PAY THE GIRL.

4) Fair enough. No reason to doubt this.

5) Aside from the fact I don't invest much credibility in PWC, fair enough.

I understand eCOGRA's position on this. I don't understand or agree on eCOGRA's positions on everything by any means, but on this I do.

The casino should have just PAID the girl and have done. Instead, rather than cough up on a decent sized debt they decided to create as much trouble as they possibly could.

At the end of the day, they've saved themselves 20K.

BFD.

[caruso]

Originally Posted by caruso

there is a side issue here of Nevada law: why are Microgaming casinos accepting signups from players from states where online gambling is illegal? It seems to me you cannot break one law, but you can break another...

Just to clarify:

and it becomes even more complex when trying to match players in the 18-21 group against the laws of hundreds of countries and states.

Problems in this department acknowledged.