Bonus Complaint 888 locks my account after wagering. deposit returned 1200 profit gone!

Droste01

Dormant account
PABnononaccred
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
Location
Nijmegen
hi everyone,

this is my first post here, found this forum after googling for my problems with 888.com.

I signed up and got the 140 euro bonus after making a deposit. I mostly play Blackjack and not really read the T&C very carefull. Got lucky on BJ but after reading the T&C again saw that BJ doesn't count that much for the wagering requirement... (only like 5% i think?)

So i continued to wager on slots and was so lucky to don't loose that much on the slots, even made a gain on it! Very lucky me:notworthy:notworthy

After finishing my wagering i uploaded my Drivers licence to pre-approve my account for withdrawal. Documents got approved by email and couple of days later tried to login to cashout my balance. To my surprise my account was temporarily locked!
This was on 14th of august, immediately sent an email but got no response (they have 72 hours time frame to respond). Got no response, sent a new email on 21th of August, also no reply at all.

Today i sent another email asking what is going on and asked: "Where are you licensed so i can file an complaint regarding your way of working?"

Suddenly i have a reply within 2 hours saying this: (why can i they reply suddenly within 2 hours....?? because i ask where i can file an complaint??)
"We have taken the decision to end your membership with ourselves.

This decision was taken after a detailed review of your game play. Our review revealed that you are employing a gaming strategy in order to maximize the return from your game play, and the amount of bonuses you receive. This is against our Terms and Conditions, and we will be revoking your membership due to this.

As a gesture of goodwill due to the delay in responding to you regarding the status of your account, we have now processed a withdrawal of your deposited amount of 140EUR back to your Neteller account."

What can i do? I haven't broken any rule, and what kind of strategie are they talking about.

Should i contact 888.com again or anything else?

Full review of this casino can be found here
 
Hi Droste01,

The best place to start would be a PM to the casino rep for 888, who you can find here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/

Send her a PM and then give her a couple of days to look into your issue and respond then go from there.

Welcome to Casinomeister. :)

Thanks for that! sent a message to her, but i also hasn't been on this forum since 14th august... (My first email also was on 14th august, but probably just coincedence...)
 
Thanks for that! sent a message to her, but i also hasn't been on this forum since 14th august... (My first email also was on 14th august, but probably just coincedence...)

I would not worry too much about that. Most reps like myself will get an alert when a message is PM'd to us here. Plus, I occasionally drop by briefly without logging in and Rachel may have done the same. She's an active rep so she'll be stopping by before long I'm sure.
 
This looks like a "spirit of the bonus" confiscation, so a PAB is well worth pursuing. Cassava have a history of doing this, even though no terms were actually broken. To defend their decision, they will need to demonstrate that you broke a clear term, such as betting more than an allowed maximum when playing on a bonus.

If you bet your entire bankroll on the first hand, you probably have broken such a max bet term - you will have to show that no such term exists.
 
I would not worry too much about that. Most reps like myself will get an alert when a message is PM'd to us here. Plus, I occasionally drop by briefly without logging in and Rachel may have done the same. She's an active rep so she'll be stopping by before long I'm sure.


Yeah, Rachel is very helpful and a great rep for 888. I am sure that she will take a look at this case quite quickly.

OP: 888 was accredited on Casinomeister only a few weeks before they were removed. I think that many players around the world are enjoying playing at 888, but I personally would not play there as they have a tendency to mess things up. I would advise you to check out the accredited section next time you want to find a new favorite casino.

But again...Rachel is great :D
 
already got a reply from Rachel! Nice quick response. Gave her all the details and she will be look into it.

Regarding the max betsize:
- i think i betted 100 hands or something on BJ
- but there is nothing mentioned about max betsize in the casino.
- if there is no mention of it how should you know what "the good spirit of the bonus" is. That can be anything from betting max 0,1 or playing a wrong strategy on blackjack... Or you need to whistle when you are behind the game and they want a record of that... Can be anything...
- if there a bet limits, they should implement it in the software and not in the Terms & Conditions... I work in the IT and it's so easy to make a max betsize when a bonus is involved...

well have to wait on the outcome, but online casinos......:confused::confused::eek:
 
Rachel can't be of any help.....

"They have advised though that they are unable to consider reopening your account due to the patterns of game play that you have exhibited - but they have refunded your initial deposit so that you have not lost any of your own money through your account. Unfortunately they are not going to reconsider and continue with your account membership. This is due to the gaming strategies that they reviewed on your account, with regards to the wagering of the initial welcome bonus, which is considered a pattern of abuse.
"

what a complete nonsense, what is the pattern of game play that is NOT allowed and why arent' these mentioned in their T&C if they are NOT allowed.

Also asked the CS team of 888 to a contact person or their regulator, they just ignore that question.

Going to contact Gribraltar gaming commision... or should i first PAB?

How is it possible that online casinos get away with this, and i may be "happy" that i not have lost any of my own money....

Never play at 888.com, shame on you 888...
 
Rachel can't be of any help.....

"They have advised though that they are unable to consider reopening your account due to the patterns of game play that you have exhibited - but they have refunded your initial deposit so that you have not lost any of your own money through your account. Unfortunately they are not going to reconsider and continue with your account membership. This is due to the gaming strategies that they reviewed on your account, with regards to the wagering of the initial welcome bonus, which is considered a pattern of abuse.
"

what a complete nonsense, what is the pattern of game play that is NOT allowed and why arent' these mentioned in their T&C if they are NOT allowed.

Also asked the CS team of 888 to a contact person or their regulator, they just ignore that question.

Going to contact Gribraltar gaming commision... or should i first PAB?

How is it possible that online casinos get away with this, and i may be "happy" that i not have lost any of my own money....

Never play at 888.com, shame on you 888...

The terms state:

888casino reserves the right, following the limitations above and other discretions, to ask a member to provide 888casino with documented proof of identity, refuse withdrawals, or enforce further wagering before a bonus is withdrawn, and to block or terminate all accounts and remove bonus money and any winnings derived from the bonus without notice.

In other words, if they don't want to pay you, they just won't.

It's a horrible term, but you accepted the terms when you deposited, so you have nobody to blame but yourself.

If you don't want to be bound by such terms, be more careful about where you play.

My feeling is that you put in some big BJ bets to build your bankroll and play the rest off on slots. Nothing illegal about that, but just about every casino will ban you as a result....but I'm sure you know that, as this isn't something a newb does.
 
Rachel can't be of any help.....

"They have advised though that they are unable to consider reopening your account due to the patterns of game play that you have exhibited - but they have refunded your initial deposit so that you have not lost any of your own money through your account. Unfortunately they are not going to reconsider and continue with your account membership. This is due to the gaming strategies that they reviewed on your account, with regards to the wagering of the initial welcome bonus, which is considered a pattern of abuse.
"

what a complete nonsense, what is the pattern of game play that is NOT allowed and why arent' these mentioned in their T&C if they are NOT allowed.

Also asked the CS team of 888 to a contact person or their regulator, they just ignore that question.

Going to contact Gribraltar gaming commision... or should i first PAB?

How is it possible that online casinos get away with this, and i may be "happy" that i not have lost any of my own money....

Never play at 888.com, shame on you 888...

A classic "spirit of the bonus" confiscation. Forget their regulator, use the PAB here. If this is confirmed as merely a "spirit of the bonus" thing, rather than you having violated any terms, or made any misrepresentations, this case could contribute to them being the subject of a "casino warning".

Had you broken a term, they would have said so, and you would be able to see from your play which term this was.

The 888 stable have a long history of this bullshit, but recently decided to turn over a new leaf and become accredited here. This didn't last as they were not prepared to stop spamming players with offers that were misleading, and which in some cases lured players into breaking "spirit of the bonus" terms by taking them up.

They are a very big group, and seem to view themselves as "above the law", walking out rather than adhere to standards of behaviour that become too inconvenient for them to follow. They remain big by having a very aggressive marketing strategy that yields a steady supply of new players. Coupled with their "spirit of the bonus" confiscations, it keeps the money rolling in. It would be a simple matter for them to use a "strictly slots only" welcome bonus, but this would make it much harder to declare play as "abusive" since there is no real slot strategy as there is with Blackjack.

You could ask for a copy of your play history, and if you don't want to PAB for the winnings (they won't take you back in any case), you can post it here so that we can see on what basis they feel your play violates their "spirit code".

BTW, when they became accredited, there was a bit of an outcry from some members who couldn't believe this notorious outfit had somehow changed their ways enough to warrant it. These same members have been vindicated.

It rather looks like accreditation was a marketing stunt with no real commitment to change for the long term. If you lose and play "stupidly" you will be treated well, and paid without fuss. However, the same can be said of most rogue outfits, where players only find out who they are really dealing with the day they have that great run of luck and withdraw a considerable sum that the operator thinks will not be coming back to them.
 
Going to contact Gribraltar gaming commision... or should i first PAB?
If it were me - I would definitely PAB first.
The Gaming Commission might be able to help - but I'm pretty sure it would take MUCH longer than the PAB process.

KK
 
If it were me - I would definitely PAB first.
The Gaming Commission might be able to help - but I'm pretty sure it would take MUCH longer than the PAB process.

KK

They side with the casino when the claim is "the spirit of the bonus has been violated", hence the player just waits a long time before they too get violated.

A PAB may be quicker, provided Max doesn't have too big a backlog, and we all know what Bryan thinks of casinos that void winnings for "abusing the spirit of the bonus".
 
It's a horrible term, but you accepted the terms when you deposited, so you have nobody to blame but yourself.

If you don't want to be bound by such terms, be more careful about where you play.

A very large number of casinos have similar terms - in fact 'spirit of the bonus' terms are just about universal. The difference between a reputable venue and a rogue venue is that a reputable venue will pay the winnings if no specific term has been broken, then either bonus bar the player or lock their account. A rogue venue will use this rule to justify 'lose but can't win situations' where they'd be happy to keep your funds if you lose, but won't pay if you win.

The rule is technically there and the player has technically agreed to it, but as the playing party in this instance couldn't know in advance what would cause this rule to be enforced it would not be technically legally enforcable in any contractual situation in the majority of western legal systems. Contract law simply doesn't allow for such vague and one-sided terms.

That said, it does sound on the surface like the player was using the classic sticky up the balance before clearing the wagering requirent. However, if 888 don't like this style of play they need to add a clearly defined max bet rule rather than enforcing vague and unfair terms.
 
Sounds Typical Confiscate the winnings lock the account pffft ...about to open up on one myself stay on their case sounds like you got royally done there.
 
filed a PAB using the webform, but did not get any confirmation by email.

Is this normal? Or should i file again?
 
It rather looks like accreditation was a marketing stunt ....

It's my belief that this is not true, or at least not the whole truth. Rachel was the primary force behind the 888 Accreditation proposal and I am convinced that her efforts were genuine. We told her early on what would be required of 888 and she thought she could get her management people on-side. Unfortunately that didn't happen so the whole effort was doomed. Senior 888 management may have had a cynical view of the Accreditation process, I am quite certain Rachel did not. The failure was their doing, not hers.

filed a PAB using the webform, but did not get any confirmation by email.

PAB received. I'll be contacting you via email shortly.
 
Have you been through the bonus abuse terms and conditions? Are there any at all? :confused:

That strategy is one used by advanced players but generally frowned upon by casinos. In fact, a casino that doesnt cover itself by clearly outlining this particular strategy as a method of abusive play is opening itself up to a ton of bonus abuse.

If you start wagering on a game like blackjack, where using perfect strategy could narrow the margin down to virtually evens, and by staking a large hand of say close to 100% of the player's bankroll and winning, the player could easily put themselves into positive expectancy, meaning a guaranteed cashout using the free funds given by the casino. The reason why an aggressive gameweight will be placed on a game like blackjack is because of its minuscule casino margin, forcing the player through a reasonable amount of volume in order for the margin to begin to take effect. If the player decides to stake most of their bankroll and wins on the low margin game, and then proceeds to play a higher casino margin game like slots with a 100% game weight, the player will then be able to turn over the bonus easily once he brings down his average hand value drastically to as close to perfect RTP as he can.

Heres an example:

Deposit 500, get 500 bonus at a 60x bonus wagering requirement.
Gameweights set are 2% for Blackjack and 100% for slots.
Total wagering requirement = 500x60 = 30,000

Player stakes ALL his bankroll including bonus on BJ, winning. Therefore, the player now has 2000 bankroll. In order to clear the bonus wagering, he will have to wager the 30,000 wagering requirement at a 2% gameweight, meaning he has to wager 1,500,000 if he continues on the same game(Blackjack). If the player continues upon this route, he has to take into consideration the fact that single deck blackjack casino margin is approx 0.13% using perfect strategy, meaning he is EXPECTED to lose 1,950 of that 1,500,000(0.13% of 1,500,000 = 1,950) he is being forced to wager. Therefore, he is expected to be out of bankroll should he even come close to completing the mindnumbing volume to be wagered. Switching to slots at this stage(now that he has doubled his bankroll to 2000) with a 100% gameweight will leave him with almost only 30,000 to be wagered, meaning if he lowers his hand value to say €1 in order to try and hit optimal RTP%, and taking for example a 5% casino margin slot game, he should end the process losing about 5% of the 30,000 he has to wager for the bonus, which is 1500, putting him into a mathematical positive expectancy as he is profiting €450 due to using the free funds the casino provided the player to extend his gameplay in a way that guarantees a cashout simply through manipulative use of calculated wagering of bonus funds.

It wouldnt be a problem if the player switched to a higher casino margin game(including 100% game weight) if the player decided to maintain his very risky €1000 per hand gameplay on the higher margin games, but bringing his hand value down drastically in order to aim for perfect RTP is what would get him in hot water.

Really, it all comes down to whether the casino has stated that this tactic is not allowed to be employed when using the bonus funds provided!
 
Looking at the above again, I've made a slight miscalculation.

The player made 450, but lost his original 500 deposit meaning he made a net loss of 50.

The maths remain the same though a higher wagering requirement or a game with a slightly larger margin than single deck blackjack needed to be used for the example to put the player into positive expectancy! :oops:
 
Heres an example:

Deposit 500, get 500 bonus at a 60x bonus wagering requirement.
Gameweights set are 2% for Blackjack and 100% for slots.
Total wagering requirement = 500x60 = 30,000

Player stakes ALL his bankroll including bonus on BJ, winning.

He can also lose, you missed that bit.

he should end the process losing about 5% of the 30,000 he has to wager for the bonus, which is 1500, putting him into a mathematical positive expectancy as he is profiting €450 due to using the free funds the casino provided the player to extend his gameplay in a way that guarantees a cashout simply through manipulative use of calculated wagering of bonus funds.

Im confused...So he deposited £500. Had a flick of a coin bet so he was on zero or £2000.
IF hes lucky enough to get to £2k, he then plays a 5% game for £30,000 losing £1500 so leaving him with.....£500

Or in other words, his initial deposit?

So he might as well have had no bonus, have the full £500 on 1 hand or spin. If he wins, hes plus £500 if he loses hes in the same situation he would have been in your example, LOST £500
 
He can also lose, you missed that bit.



Im confused...So he deposited £500. Had a flick of a coin bet so he was on zero or £2000.
IF hes lucky enough to get to £2k, he then plays a 5% game for £30,000 losing £1500 so leaving him with.....£500

Or in other words, his initial deposit?

So he might as well have had no bonus, have the full £500 on 1 hand or spin. If he wins, hes plus £500 if he loses hes in the same situation he would have been in your example, LOST £500

Hey GOCC,

Thats why i said theres a slight miscalculation in my example. I needed to use a higher wagering requirement or a game with a slightly larger casino margin than single deck blackjack but that retains the same game weight.

My point is, the bonus funds are provided by the casino to extend gameplay, not to manipulate the house edge and turn the tables on the casino by potentially pushing the RTP to over 100% into positive expectancy.

Make no mistake, if the casino did not specify in its terms and conditions that this is a form of bonus abuse, then the player has done absolutely nothing wrong and should not be penalised for it. However the maths do not lie, and this tactic can easily turn the tables on the casino with some forethought, so it is always in the casino's interest to clearly state that employing it will result in an automatic bonus forfeit and retention of winnings won with only the bonus funds.

You stated that the player can also lose when he goes for the almost evens odds of wagering all his bankroll in one hand. Yes, that is correct. But at that time, the player has not yet employed any strategy that could contradict any terms. A player is in full right to wager all his bankroll, and he may indeed double it or lose it, however the problem arises once he shifts game to a higher margin/better gameweight that the abuse can be confirmed, as the projected losses when calculating the casino margin from the wagering requirement will be less than the doubled bankroll obtained through a bonus.

I agree fully with the player's annoyance, however i do also understand the stance of the casino. It comes down to whether the casino was clear about what it deems to be bonus abuse, and whether the casino clearly outlines this practice in its terms and conditions. I strongly detest any form of vague excuse supplied for penalising a player, such as garbage like "spirit of the bonus", and couldnt underline more the fact that these strategies of play are clearly outlined and discouraged in the binding agreement that a player accepts when he accepts a bonus.

The question remains, did the casino outline this strategy as a form of abuse and a grounds for the bonus to be forfeited at the time of the player accepting the bonus?
 
The question remains, did the casino outline this strategy as a form of abuse and a grounds for the bonus to be forfeited at the time of the player accepting the bonus?
No player is guilty of "abuse" if he sticks to the rules & betting limits set out by the casino in their bonus terms.
However, casinos ARE guilty of player abuse if they invoke any form of BS "spirit of the bonus" clause.

The question remains, WHY don't casinos develop their software to make sure players CAN NOT place wagers which breach any of their T&Cs?
(That's a rhetorical question, since we already know what the answer is; when the player loses, the casino keeps the cash and if the player wins but breaks a vague "spirit" term, the casino keeps the cash).

KK
 
To be fair, you said there was a slight miscalculation and he won £450, not £500 where infact in your example, he was lucky to break even.
 

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