What casinos usually mean when they say...

[Jasminebed]

I'm not all that sure that it requires weeks to implement bet restrictions. I know I have read threads here about both playtech and RTG casinos where players have had their bet limits adjusted (both upwards and downwards), sometimes as abruptly after being disconnected by an administrator. If it can be done on the fly like this for some players, I'm sure it could be either automated or have to contact CS for a bonus so it could be implemented manually if the casino desired.

I think it's pretty clear that betting both red and black at the same time on roulette is considered minimal risk wagering. But isn't this the exact same as betting half that amount on red for twice as many spins, at least over the long haul? Many softwares don't allow for spinning without betting, and some players that employ a "system" wait for "the right time" to bet. I often see this at my local B&Ms, especially on the video terminals associated with a live table. The casino even thoughtfully provides cards to record the results for their system players.

Laying off on the craps tables to avoid the minimum bet sizes should probably be avoided as well.

Many MG casinos don't allow players to play the Multispin slots while playing with a bonus, or if allowed, it doesn't count towards wagering. I'm just waiting for a bonus complaint to surface over the new and heavily promoted Break Da Bank again to crop up.

[Jasminebed]

After reading through this, are there any casinos without terms and conditions? It seems that it shouldn't be hard to create a game, system, and set of probabilities that does not require restrictions aside from the ones that everyone expects.

For example, if I go to a casino, there are expected rules. Namely, no one under 21 on the gambling floor. And this is on a sign. But if I walk up to a slot, the rules are exactly as expected. I put money in the machine and hope that more money comes out. I don't expect to be told that winning on my first spin is weird, so they're not going to give me my money.

That's a problem I think people are having. They expect certain tacit rules to apply. And I think that this makes perfect sense! We all know what gambling is and know how it should at least theoretically work.

3Dice has implemented bet size restrictions into the software, and while different games are weighted differently, there is no game play that will void winnings. 3Dice doesn't offer a lot of bonuses, and with the exception of the SUB, they are largely based on loyalty level, with higher levels receiving more generous bonuses and terms.

Free Tournament wins carry a wagering of 10x, and if you are a VIP player (minimum of $50 deposited monthly), there's normally at least one tournament every 75 minutes, and two freerolls for any player available per day. The Buy-In tourney wins carry no WR.

[LaHutti]

3Dice has implemented bet size restrictions into the software, and while different games are weighted differently, there is no game play that will void winnings. 3Dice doesn't offer a lot of bonuses, and with the exception of the SUB, they are largely based on loyalty level, with higher levels receiving more generous bonuses and terms.

Free Tournament wins carry a wagering of 10x, and if you are a VIP player (minimum of $50 deposited monthly), there's normally at least one tournament every 75 minutes, and two freerolls for any player available per day. The Buy-In tourney wins carry no WR.

That's excactly right. You can love or hate the games in 3Dice, but there is NO bullcrap.
If you win, you get paid, and that's the end of story.
Enzo manager of 3Dice, hit the nail on the head, in his previous post in this thread, and 3Dice in fact have no bullcrap terms.
A lot of casinos, and casino managers could learn a LOT from 3Dice, and Enzo, regarding this.

[nisosbar]

After reading through this, are there any casinos without terms and conditions? It seems that it shouldn't be hard to create a game, system, and set of probabilities that does not require restrictions aside from the ones that everyone expects.

For example, if I go to a casino, there are expected rules. Namely, no one under 21 on the gambling floor. And this is on a sign. But if I walk up to a slot, the rules are exactly as expected. I put money in the machine and hope that more money comes out. I don't expect to be told that winning on my first spin is weird, so they're not going to give me my money.

That's a problem I think people are having. They expect certain tacit rules to apply. And I think that this makes perfect sense! We all know what gambling is and know how it should at least theoretically work.

I believe ALL casinos apply terms and conditions to their bonuses.

However, the least restrictive bonuses of all seem to be the ones at 3Dice. They aren't as frequent as at other casinos, nor are they super massive '200, 300, 500 900%!!!', but the restrictions are minimal, and the WR is anything from NONE up to 10x, and I don't think I've ever seen a bonus with a larger WR than 10x.

[vinylweatherman]

I'm not all that sure that it requires weeks to implement bet restrictions. I know I have read threads here about both playtech and RTG casinos where players have had their bet limits adjusted (both upwards and downwards), sometimes as abruptly after being disconnected by an administrator. If it can be done on the fly like this for some players, I'm sure it could be either automated or have to contact CS for a bonus so it could be implemented manually if the casino desired.

I think it's pretty clear that betting both red and black at the same time on roulette is considered minimal risk wagering. But isn't this the exact same as betting half that amount on red for twice as many spins, at least over the long haul? Many softwares don't allow for spinning without betting, and some players that employ a "system" wait for "the right time" to bet. I often see this at my local B&Ms, especially on the video terminals associated with a live table. The casino even thoughtfully provides cards to record the results for their system players.

Laying off on the craps tables to avoid the minimum bet sizes should probably be avoided as well.

Many MG casinos don't allow players to play the Multispin slots while playing with a bonus, or if allowed, it doesn't count towards wagering. I'm just waiting for a bonus complaint to surface over the new and heavily promoted Break Da Bank again to crop up.

I have spotted this recently, but WHY

MGS has been enhanced to allow players to play up to 5 games at once, which is the same thing as the multispin slots, but just displayed differently.

Multispin "Double Magic" is a banned game, but I can open 5 windows, and play "Double magic" and 4 clones all at once - it's the same thing. I could even play all the variants of "Mega Moolah" at once using tabs or windows, yet a multispin version would be a banned game even where play on progressives is allowed.

The problem here is that slots players now also have to go through the fine print looking for banned slots under their "All Slots" bonus. It used to be only advantage players that had to check carefully to see whether their non-slot strategies were allowed.

[GrandMaster]

Sorry Mr Mutts, but whatever you may think of Nify's writing style he has an excellent point here. Perhaps if you knew the full cost and logistical nightmare that can be involved in something like this you'd be more forgiving. Some people seem to think that conversation would go something like this:

Casino: ''Hi. Can you please adjust the software you provide so that it automatically blocks people from making certain bets under certain conditions?'
Software provider: ''Sure. No problem... just let us know the exact rules you want applied and we'll sort it. That will be $50 please''
Casino: ''Great, and when will that be ready?''
Software provior: ''How's tomorrow afternoon for you?''

The reality is a lot more like this:

Casino:''Hi. Can you please adjust the software so that it blocks people from making certain bets under certain conditions?'
Software provider: ''Hmmm... sounds tricky. When did you want this by?''
Casino:''Tomorrow afternoon?''
Software provider:''I was thinking more like October 2013. Oh... and the cost of something like that is about $10,000.
Casino:''Wow... but what about the 10K I already paid you for other work this month?'
Software provider:''Oh yeah... about that... all that stuff you wanted that will make your site more profitable and secure.... they will have to go on hold while we look after this new expensive request for you''
Casino: ''and if our bonus rules change how quickly can you keep up and make sure the new rules are applied in the back end?''
Software provider: ''Ohhh, no... you can never change your rules or bonus offerings after this... too complicated and it will cost another 10K to re-set the 'rules' in the back end...''
....pause...
Casino manager: ''And how much will it cost to just update out terms and conditions instead?
Software provider: ''Thats free and instant''

If you were the casino Manager, what would you do... honestly?

Getting back to the definitions, I'd like to add one for 'bonus abusers' and 'advantage players' : ''The reason some casinos t's and c's are 20 pages long''

I don't think that implementing bet limits would be more difficult than to churn out yet another video slot.

T&C are not written by the software provider, but by the casino and its lawyers (or in some cases, simply copied from another casino's website ). The more convoluted the T&C, the more staff time it will take to check that the players comply and the more staff time will have to be devoted to complaints, so there are costs there as well.

[KasinoKing]

The reality is a lot more like this:

Casino:''Hi. Can you please adjust the software so that it blocks people from making certain bets under certain conditions?'
Software provider: ''Hmmm... sounds tricky. When did you want this by?''
Casino:''Tomorrow afternoon?''
Software provider:''I was thinking more like October 2013. Oh... and the cost of something like that is about $10,000.
Casino:''Wow... but what about the 10K I already paid you for other work this month?

Sorry, but I just don't buy that argument.
If it was only $10K it would be a tiny fraction of a casinos income - hardly worth a second thought.
And they wouldn't expect it "next day" any more than they would expect to ask for a new slot machine and get it the next day.
Just because something takes a long time, it doesn't mean you shouldn't start working on it.

I'm pretty sure we all know the REAL reason that casinos use T&Cs instead of software for bonus controls:
If the player loses (even if they break one of the T&Cs) - the casino keeps their money.
If the players wins, but breaks one of the T&Cs - the casino keeps their money (winnings).
Sorry, but even for most reputable casinos, that is the bottom line.

The ONLY way bonus players can overcome this is to do what they SHOULD all be doing anyway; read all the T&Cs before you start playing and make 100% sure you don't break any rules. Simple, effective and you will get your money!

KK

[Mousey]

....I'm not all that sure that it requires weeks to implement bet restrictions. I know I have read threads here about both playtech and RTG casinos where players have had their bet limits adjusted (both upwards and downwards), sometimes as abruptly after being disconnected by an administrator. If it can be done on the fly like this for some players, I'm sure it could be either automated or have to contact CS for a bonus so it could be implemented manually if the casino desired.

.....

Rival casinos used to do this to me.... often! At that time, there were no max limit stated for bets if taking a bonus. If I were betting $10 a spin (for instance) on a vid slot, and the slot went cold and was eating me a live... fine... but if I were betting >$9 a spin and running hot on that slot, I would be booted from the software, and when I'd log back in, that slot max bet would be set at $6.25 (or similar). If it was still running hot, I would be booted yet again, and the max bet would be something like $5 or $4.50. The first time or two it happened I thought I was losing my mind. Then others confirmed it had happened to them. I quit playing Rival. My max bet at almost all Rivals on the 3 reelers (which I loved and could do well on) was set at $3. That's all all just a little TOO personal for me.

Anyway... it can and has been done.

Bonus Abuser -- Player who continues to take bonuses offered by the casino even though they (the player) sometimes wins. If they don't want the player to have said bonuses, don't offer the trap.

Unusual betting patterns -- Varies by casino. For some it's players who come in and start off with huge bets, then, if they win, drop down to grinding out the WR with low bets. Or, it's players who start off betting low, then raise bets when winning. This term is usually only dragged out if the player wins on said bonus. A clear FU term.

Minimal Risk Wagering -- I've always thought of this as betting the same amount on red and black in roulette.

Advantage Player -- One who does the math (taking into account the game payback %, the bonus, the deposit, the possible comps earned) thereby descerning the best game play to possibly eek out a win.

side note: Sci-Fi (RTG, now dead) flagged my account as 'not in good standing'. Seems the manager didn't 'like the way I played' . When asked for further clarification, turns out, they didn't like that I cashed out when I won and never reversed. Almost never ever took a bonus, even way back then. I stopped playing there and they never had a chance to get their money back. Oh... and I was something like $200 in the black for the year.... LOL

[vinylweatherman]

Sorry, but I just don't buy that argument.
If it was only $10K it would be a tiny fraction of a casinos income - hardly worth a second thought.
And they wouldn't expect it "next day" any more than they would expect to ask for a new slot machine and get it the next day.
Just because something takes a long time, it doesn't mean you shouldn't start working on it.

I'm pretty sure we all know the REAL reason that casinos use T&Cs instead of software for bonus controls:
If the player loses (even if they break one of the T&Cs) - the casino keeps their money.
If the players wins, but breaks one of the T&Cs - the casino keeps their money (winnings).
Sorry, but even for most reputable casinos, that is the bottom line.

The ONLY way bonus players can overcome this is to do what they SHOULD all be doing anyway; read all the T&Cs before you start playing and make 100% sure you don't break any rules. Simple, effective and you will get your money!

KK

Not necessarily, some casinos use the "spirit of the bonus" defence to void winnings even where no terms have been broken. The other trick is to have terms so vague that the casino can make them mean what it takes to justify voiding the winnings of a given player.

[SlotMonster]

So, a casino may have in terms " NO low risk wagering" , but DOES NOT have CLEAR definition of what should be called "low risk wagering", and it means that this casino may define ANY bet like "low risk wagering"

NO WAY!