Online RTP settings??

[4 of a kind]

One of the major concerns and conversations here are the casinos Return to Player settings (RTP’s).

Regardless how reputable any one online casino may be, their will always be doubts of fair play simply because no one knows for fact how any online casino must operate. We all know or read about how it was in the early days of Las Vegas (1946) when gambling was totally unregulated and under the control of the mob. Las Vegas didn’t become what it is today until the government publicly ridded the mob, and put in place gambling regulations being enforced by regulators.

Without online regulation being shared with everyone and a single online regulatory body where all complaints should be handled (state or country) doubts of online fair play will never end. Online players need to know if the owners given a license to operate are straight up. For all we know it's no different then the early days of Las Vegas. Online players know nothing about any online casino or its operators, except for the couple that trade publicly. Online players have to trust what's being said by third parties that want to remain anonymous. This type of information could never be considered serious regardless who says it is.

Being able to change RTP settings on the fly would be a huge advantage for online casinos. Some say they can, and others say they can't. Some say they have only 3 different settings, some say their choices are endless. No one knows for sure one way or the other, nor could anyone make a confirmed argument one way or the other. All online players have to go by is their own personal experiences, and no one could spin enough on one game to confirm any RTP setting.

Unless regulators report actual monitored monthly RTP settings no one could take what any hired lab reports not knowing for sure what the online casino sent them in the first place serious.

Lowering RTP settings is not a crime and all casinos need this ability to control income especially online. But, players want to know how low is the lowest they can go and what they have to go through in order to make these changes.

Below is a list of regulations that New Jersey must abide by to lower or change their RTP settings. This alone pretty much confirms in New Jersey it can’t be done on the fly.

After reading this can anyone tell me what online casinos must do?



In Atlantic City the payback percentage is 83%. Most slots pay in the neighborhood of 90% over time, but the point here is that regulatory agencies do not allow a casino to flip a switch and change the payback percentage. The regulators want to reliably know that machine #xxxxx will operate in X manner and will pay back X percentage over time. No surprises. No mysteries.

And how do the regulators enforce the rules? Let's look at how the process is handled in New Jersey...

Every RNG in Atlantic City is individually certified and sealed by New Jersey’s Division of Gaming Enforcement. A casino CANNOT change a machine's payback unless the casino does the following...

• The casino makes an application to the DGE.
• The machine is opened under DGE supervision.
• The DGE breaks the processor's seal and supervises the program/chip replacement.
• The DGE creates a new seal, and re-certifies the machine.

The Division of Gaming Enforcement maintains a database of every slot machine in the state of New Jersey. The specific payback percentage of every machine is part of that database. Every RNG is numbered and tracked.

The above procedures are typical for most regulatory agencies throughout the U.S.

[Jasminebed]

I know I read a long time ago the rules for Quebec's government run Casinos. They could change any slot only once in a twenty-four hour period, and there were minimum percentages, and an average that had to be adhered to.

My local Ontario Lottery Commission Charity casino has been fined several times for having payouts below the minimum. It was at least 7 times in their first 8 years of operation, and that was a couple of years ago.

Sometimes fines are just the cost of doing business.

RTP and theorhetical RTP are not exactly the same thing. Free chips, cash back, comps, etc, are all part of RTP.

I think most of the time casinos "cheat" is not by adjusting payout, but denying legitimate winnings, delaying payments so frustrated players either give up or play it back, or having complicated rules, or traps such as a penny bonus applied during play.

[Diane]

I know I read a long time ago the rules for Quebec's government run Casinos. They could change any slot only once in a twenty-four hour period, and there were minimum percentages, and an average that had to be adhered to.

My local Ontario Lottery Commission Charity casino has been fined several times for having payouts below the minimum. It was at least 7 times in their first 8 years of operation, and that was a couple of years ago.

Sometimes fines are just the cost of doing business.

RTP and theorhetical RTP are not exactly the same thing. Free chips, cash back, comps, etc, are all part of RTP.

I think most of the time casinos "cheat" is not by adjusting payout, but denying legitimate winnings, delaying payments so frustrated players either give up or play it back, or having complicated rules, or traps such as a penny bonus applied during play.

As gamblers we have to accept the fact that we will never know *exactly* what is going on whether its online or in a B&M casino. There is just some blindness that will never see the light. Accept it and understand that its part of "gambling"...........Don't give in to the conspirators -- just accept that you will never know for sure, so why sweat it?

Gambling is gambling.

Diane

[threescatters]

As gamblers we have to accept the fact that we will never know *exactly* what is going on whether its online or in a B&M casino.

Couldn't disagree more. i agree that the vast majority of operators operate like this, and wish it to stay that way but look at wagerworks. The RTP of all the slots is clearly displayed in the help files, have you ever heard of someone having a major disagreement with wagerworks that wasnt satisfactorily resolved? Other providers of slot machines should take note of this.

[Nifty29]

It's also important to add that it is not possible to tell the RTP of a slot just by playing it....at least, not in the number of spins the average slot player takes.

It would be interesting to put 25 new slots with varying RTPs in front of some slot players and see if they could rank them correctly from worst to best. Not only would it be near impossible to do, even with 5000 spins per slot, but the rankings would vary wildly as some players would be on the up side of the variance pendulum and others would be on the down side.

I totally understand and accept the point that 4OAK consistently makes in regards to regulation of online gaming I.e. the lunatics running the asylum. It very much boils down to trust in both the software provider and the operator, and others like Bryan who have made it their mission to keep the industry honest. If one doesn't think they're getting a fair game, then one should avoid that software or operator. Nobody knows exactly what goes on behind the scenes, so its doubtful that anyone would be able to provide proof that cheating goes on. Alternately, those who believe the major software is fair have data such as audited RTPs and statements from people like Bryan and Mr Shackleford etc that show this to be so. The only thing that those who believe they cheat have to hang their hat on is "I'm not winning enough" or "the dealer gets too many 21s" which doesnt even begin to cut the mustard.

Anyone who seriously thinks they are being cheated should read the article 4oak posted earlier. If they still think they're being cheated after that, then the minute they place their next bet online reduces the credibility of their opinion to zero, as continuing to play a game where you know you're being cheated is very unintelligent at best, and certainly indicates that you don't even subscribe to your own theory.

Personally I give far more creedence to posters like 4oak who question fairness AND stop playing as a result. At least they have the courage of their convictions.

[Seventh777]

I was speaking to a slot machine engineer for ages a few years ago, at a local land based casino regarding how much cash had to be pumped through the average slot before it reflected the RTP %, he reliably informed me that there is no set amount, but for accounting and other purposes the guideline is set around the 100k mark, give or take a few thousand either way, this was the average. As experienced only once myself he went on to add, `You could quite possibly come in here and hit two jackpots consecutively, giving you a 10000% RTP, the next player however could experience the complete opposite, but i`m quietly confident that if you want to run £100,000 through it, at the end you will have a return of somewhere between 90-95k`.

So in the nutshell, having monthly audits would give inaccurate RTP`s, unless ofc the amounts the individual slots RTP`s are based on have been reached.

[4 of a kind]

So in the nutshell, having monthly audits would give inaccurate RTP`s, unless ofc the amounts the individual slots RTP`s are based on have been reached.

Below are copies of only two A.C. casinos mandatory monthly reports required for all Atlantic City casinos. When you read the slot section on the right column you could see what percentage the casino held for that month. I would guess that the volume these machines take in on a monthly base would be more then enough to give a pretty accurate RTP setting.

Regardless if the RTP's have reached their actual settings or not; following these monthly reports would certainly give me a good idea where I would choose to play slots when visiting.

[3mptyseat]

Its not a completely uncommon event that a casino would post monthly losses in slot categories too. All it takes is a huge hit on the high-roller machines, and that can set off win/loss reports for weeks to come... Great post. Variance is a painful truth that most players deal with, whether they know it or not, that second report illustrates that it can be the enemigo of the house too, if not for just a short time. And that is a nice thought.

[Simmo!]

There definitely needs to be more transparency in publishing RTP's IMO. Wagerworks/IGT, WMS and Novomatic all publish the RTP's of their online games and it's probably no coincidence that they all come from a land-based background, while Microgaming, Playtech and RTG (for example) don't - and none of those have a land-based history. Ultimately I believe they will suffer as a result when - ultimately - the industry is properly regulaed.

A lot of it is down to the licensing jurisdiction. Judging from what I see, Alderney clearly require online casinos to publish their RTP and IMO all licensing jurisdictions should insist on this.

All that said, a lot of players would refuse to believe it anyway. Gambling incurs losses and as we see here a lot, emotions overrule anything when you lose. Even I have found myself doubting some casinos when I have a bad streak. But I think also, a lot of that is down to how a player perceives a "brand".

For example, if I have a bad streak at 32Red or Bet365 I might get annoyed, but ultimately I put it down to bad luck. And I think many players play at brands they don't know well enough to trust - they just *want* to trust them. I hear over and over that you should never underestimate the importance of brand and this is one instance where I think it's spot on.

If every online casino was, say, a big Vegas casino like MGM, Wynn etc, the RTP's would be clear and I reckon 99% of people here would believe they were getting a fair game.

[threescatters]

Simmo I have never been to a big vegas casino like the MGM or Wynn where the RTP on each machine is clearly displayed or am I misinterpreteing your post? Big land based casinos in the US seem to want to hide what the RTP is.

The wizard of odds has a page where he went round a lot of big casinos and calculated the house on some 5c slots and you can use that to draw an idea where the best places to play are, but ive never seen what you say there.

On the other hand, similar slots in UK casinos all clearly display a % that is the minimum it can be set to, usually 94% for casino slots now.