Casino Reps Please Respond Here

[rouletteguy]

What I said applies to Video Poker.



I've answered this question yet you guys don't want to accept it. It is fundamentally flawed to ask if software is RTP or RNG (what you call random draw) based. The reason, is it is both.
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

No it is not both If I am random player and start your roulette game am I on average expected to lose 3% of my money or not? (not including standard house edge)

Will the RNG intentionally produce a losing outcome in order to keep my win/loss in check? But balance it out by awarding another player winnings.?

Pretty simple question and it does not require a page long answer.

I appreciate your response and don't appreciate those who attacked you because it is exactly the reason you guy's don't respond. This is the question no one is forth coming with.

Will your table games screw me over and keep me from winning too much?

[Rusty]

Sorry I wasn't more clear. To answer your question; in theory yes, some crooked software provider could do this by altering the odds of each play. But that is why we have testing and auditing done by 3rd parties.

There are evil software providers:
http://www.casinomeister.com/rogue/#es

You can see RTG, Micro, Rival, etc aren't on that list. The thing is, developing a casino software is something that requires a budget anywhere from high 7 digits to lower 8 digits. It takes YEARS before a casino software provides the owners with an ROI. This makes it so that software developers are GENERALLY in it for the long run, and as such, wouldn't allow their licensees to hurt their reputation. Remember, in most cases the software providers earn whether the casino does or doesn't make money.

It also doesn't make sense to believe respected software companies would do this. After all, if this conspiracy going on here were true; that all software providers, independent auditors and technical standard providers, all webmasters, promotions managers, casino managers, etc were in on this, then one casino or another would feel the competitive pressure and put out a 1000% bonus with 10x play on blackjack. But since any casino that puts out such a bonus would go broke (or are rogue and simply won't pay) since the software is fundamentally honest, then that should tell you something.

Also, if we were all in on this together, then someone would step forward no? I mean, we are a lot of people in this industry from all over the world and many with no direct ties to one another, many competing very heavily with each other (i.e. if RTG did it, Rival would point it out, if Rival did it, someone else would point it out, if one casino would do it, another would point it out, etc).

But then, if you really wanted to go off on conspiracies you could say Vegas casinos don't shuffle the cards, roulette wheels have stop buttons, dice are weighed in the casino's favor, etc. If you are going to go off into deep, totally unproven, baseless conspiracies, why stop online?

And if you believe in such conspiracies, then there is a simple solution: Don't gamble or don't gamble online, depending on what level of conspiracy you believe in.

Any business transaction implies a certain level of trust, whether it is buying a car, booking a flight, buying a 6 pack at the supermarket or gambling online or offline, there is trust involved. You trust providers and authorities to ensure you get a quality service and product. Without trust, business couldn't exist. Now does that mean that the trust is blind? Of course not, but at some level you must trust others and that is why reputation is important. No one can understand every last bit of modern life (i.e. how the aviation standards are ensured, how food standards, how cars are built, defects detected, etc, etc etc)

Hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

I stopped reading when you started rambling about conspiracies.
Is it a conspiracy that different Casinos have different RTP settings for their games?
Let's stay real here.

So you are saying that the probability of outcome of Video poker is exactly the same as its real life counter part and not only do these probabilities never change the RTP is also never changed?

[NicolasJohnson]

No it is not both If I am random player and start your roulette game am I on average expected to lose 3% of my money or not? (not including standard house edge)

Will the RNG intentionally produce a losing outcome in order to keep my win/loss in check? But balance it out by awarding another player winnings.?

Pretty simple question and it does not require a page long answer.

I appreciate your response and don't appreciate those who attacked you because it is exactly the reason you guy's don't respond. This is the question no one is forth coming with.

Will your table games screw me over and keep me from winning too much?

No, our table games won't screw you over and keep you from winning too much. In fact, I've seen players take $20 and turn 'em into $50k, other times I've seen players deposit and play thousands and hardly get any play. That is what randomness is all about.

Think of it this way: there are 38 numbers in a roulette weal. Each number will come up an expected number of times (1 in 38). This will remain the same online. Now, will each number come up 1 in 38 times in any given data set; no. That is why it is THEORETICAL RTP. In gambling, when it is random, and by definition gambling has to be random, then RTP is theoretical. Nothing in our software is going to say, if you hit 32 five times in a row, then another number will come up. That WON'T happen. If you hit 32 five times in a row, there are the same odds of 1 in 38 each time you bet, no matter which number it is. Each roulette spin is independent, that is the reason martingale systems are fundamentally flawed.

Just like with flipping a coin, it is expected that heads and tails come up 50/50, but if you flip it, you might get 20 heads and 3 tails. Because randomness means that each time it is flipped, there are the same 50/50 odds at play. The coin, just like the roulette wheel, doesn't 'keep track' of whether you have won or lost. In fact casinos some games during some times players win more then they loose. This happens in land based casino as well as online. That is what is called variance, and it is the inevitable consequence of randomness. Why some games have more variance than others? The number of variables and prizes is greatly influential. To give an example, flipping a coin, which has a binary result, will have less variance than say throwing a dice (which has 6 possible combination). Try it and you will see. Flip a coin 20 times, and throw a dice 20 times. You are most likely going to get a greater variance with the dice. To find out more about variance, I suggest you check these articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_absolute_deviation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_deviation

If you are saying that our casino software CAN'T have a RTP and an RNG, then you fundamentally don't understand these concepts. I'd suggest you read my posts again where I explain them.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

[NicolasJohnson]

I stopped reading when you started rambling about conspiracies.
Is it a conspiracy that different Casinos have different RTP settings for their games?
Let's stay real here.

So you are saying that the probability of outcome of Video poker is exactly the same as its real life counter part and not only do these probabilities never change the RTP is also never changed?

As I said, I'm sure there are bad software providers out there; hence the section here at casinomeister of evil software providers.

But I'm quite sure honest software providers that have been audited, tried and tested by people much smarter than me work as they should; with the same real life counter part randomness, odds, payouts and therefrom RTP. It doesn't make sense for it to work otherwise.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

[takethemoney]

As I said, I'm sure there are bad software providers out there; hence the section here at casinomeister of evil software providers.

But I'm quite sure honest software providers that have been audited, tried and tested by people much smarter than me work as they should; with the same real life counter part randomness, odds, payouts and therefrom RTP. It doesn't make sense for it to work otherwise.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

Nicolas,
I have asked this to other casino managers and never gotten an answer, but maybe they just didn't see it. Does the game server reside on the casino operator's property, or with RTG themselves. I think you can see where I am going with this....
Who ensures the honesty and that some underground pro has not been paid to gaff the program? With hot swappable server drives or Eprom chips that can be switched back if an operator knows there is an audit coming. These are real possibibilities, not that I think your casino would do this, but you have to admit it's possible.

[4 of a kind]

So sega casino responded and said games are set at 97% RTP did anyone ask them to confirm if this was table games as well? or just slots?

He made a blanket statement with this exact quote: "Now to answer you query, our machines are set to 97% RTP with the house edge of 3%." I would assume that means all machines and Video Poker in this case being classified a slot machine???

Since this thread went into a tailspin rather quickly 3Dice elected to answer my question via PM and not participate in this thread. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to show this response and then be charged with exposing private mail. Can a mod please let me know the ruling here...

Although the 3Dice reading was interesting, maybe the question isn't as clear as we think it is since like Nicolus's responses it too appears evasive and topic changing. So I think the question should now be re-worded like I posted earlier to Nicolus.

Can your casino regardless if it could be done at the back-end or needed to be requested and approved via your software provider; change the HOUSE EDGE PERCENTAGE Setting on Video Poker?

[Rusty]

As I said, I'm sure there are bad software providers out there; hence the section here at casinomeister of evil software providers.

But I'm quite sure honest software providers that have been audited, tried and tested by people much smarter than me work as they should; with the same real life counter part randomness, odds, payouts and therefrom RTP. It doesn't make sense for it to work otherwise.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

So therefore the RTP of a video slot with the paytable the same will be exactly the same whether it be MGS, RTG, Playtech Rival or other software provider?
And if two video poker games have the same paytable yet state different RTP at least one of them must be rigged?

[maxd]

... 3Dice elected to answer my question via PM and not participate in this thread. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to show this response and then be charged with exposing private mail. Can a mod please let me know the ruling here...

Ask 3Dice if it's okay to post it. They'll almost certainly say "yes" and then there's no problem.

[NicolasJohnson]

Nicolas,
I have asked this to other casino managers and never gotten an answer, but maybe they just didn't see it. Does the game server reside on the casino operator's property, or with RTG themselves. I think you can see where I am going with this....
Who ensures the honesty and that some underground pro has not been paid to gaff the program? With hot swappable server drives or Eprom chips that can be switched back if an operator knows there is an audit coming. These are real possibibilities, not that I think your casino would do this, but you have to admit it's possible.

Whether the software is on their servers or ours, doesn't matter much from my understanding. The thing is, the casino licensees don't have the source code to change things. If casinos had all the source code, they could simply stop working with the software providers.

He made a blanket statement with this exact quote: "Now to answer you query, our machines are set to 97% RTP with the house edge of 3%." I would assume that means all machines and Video Poker in this case being classified a slot machine???

Since this thread went into a tailspin rather quickly 3Dice elected to answer my question via PM and not participate in this thread. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to show this response and then be charged with exposing private mail. Can a mod please let me know the ruling here...

Although the 3Dice reading was interesting, maybe the question isn't as clear as we think it is since like Nicolus's responses it too appears evasive and topic changing. So I think the question should now be re-worded like I posted earlier to Nicolus.

Can your casino regardless if it could be done at the back-end or needed to be requested and approved via your software provider; change the HOUSE EDGE PERCENTAGE Setting on Video Poker?

As far as I'm concerned: No, not with RTG or Rival. I can't guarantee that though, I'm not a casino owner, I don't have master access. But in general, if that would be the case, I'd more than likely know about it.

So therefore the RTP of a video slot with the paytable the same will be exactly the same whether it be MGS, RTG, Playtech Rival or other software provider?
And if two video poker games have the same paytable yet state different RTP at least one of them must be rigged?

Well, assuming they didn't use different rules, different number of decks, etc, then from my understanding you would be right. But again, keep in mind this is my understanding.

I'm not an expert on the topic. This is getting awfully technical, and I'd like to have more answers, but I think it would be good to invite some casino odds expert like Wizard Odds people to really help you all get down to the bottom of this.

I can explain the concepts of RTP and RNG, but the level of technical understanding that we are headed into is starting to go over my head to be honest, sorry.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

[rouletteguy]

No, our table games won't screw you over and keep you from winning too much. In fact, I've seen players take $20 and turn 'em into $50k, other times I've seen players deposit and play thousands and hardly get any play. That is what randomness is all about.

Think of it this way: there are 38 numbers in a roulette weal. Each number will come up an expected number of times (1 in 38). This will remain the same online. Now, will each number come up 1 in 38 times in any given data set; no. That is why it is THEORETICAL RTP. In gambling, when it is random, and by definition gambling has to be random, then RTP is theoretical. Nothing in our software is going to say, if you hit 32 five times in a row, then another number will come up. That WON'T happen. If you hit 32 five times in a row, there are the same odds of 1 in 38 each time you bet, no matter which number it is. Each roulette spin is independent, that is the reason martingale systems are fundamentally flawed.

Just like with flipping a coin, it is expected that heads and tails come up 50/50, but if you flip it, you might get 20 heads and 3 tails. Because randomness means that each time it is flipped, there are the same 50/50 odds at play. The coin, just like the roulette wheel, doesn't 'keep track' of whether you have won or lost. In fact casinos some games during some times players win more then they loose. This happens in land based casino as well as online. That is what is called variance, and it is the inevitable consequence of randomness. Why some games have more variance than others? The number of variables and prizes is greatly influential. To give an example, flipping a coin, which has a binary result, will have less variance than say throwing a dice (which has 6 possible combination). Try it and you will see. Flip a coin 20 times, and throw a dice 20 times. You are most likely going to get a greater variance with the dice. To find out more about variance, I suggest you check these articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_absolute_deviation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_deviation

If you are saying that our casino software CAN'T have a RTP and an RNG, then you fundamentally don't understand these concepts. I'd suggest you read my posts again where I explain them.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

Nope atleast you answered the question everyone else is avoiding thank you.

as for RTP and RNG we as players consider RTP to be a catch all phrase for any game that operates like a slot machine r.e. 5 cents in 4 back. And we classify a fair RNG for tables to be one where your odds are the same as a real table. All luck with wins or losses depending how you play the game not a program that will hit everywhere your money isn't.

The RNG's throw out some very odd sequences which is why they gain their criticism online. Espescially when they coincide with working against strategy.
runs of 10 same color are supposed to be 1024 to 1 but I haven't played an online session yet where I haven't seen at least 1 run of 10 EVERY single time I play. Which of course leads people to believe their fixed.