Casino standards

[maxd]

... I simply do not see your counterpoints as valid ... Look forward to your PM.

On second thought I think I'll pass.

[Rusty]

On second thought I think I'll pass.

Why because I don't think the points you make are valid and I have set out why?
I even accepted you offer for PM and you send me a petty message declining even that.
Frankly, I have had more productive and intelligent conversations with 10 year olds.

I'm not surprised in the least though, it was obvious from the start you had no interest in an open discussion unless it suited your own agenda.
You can deny that if you like but unless you make valid arguments instead of spurious accusations of twisted logic and recalcitrance I think it will remain pretty damn obvious to anyone who cares to read this thread.
It is a matter of record and that suits me fine.

Sad indictment on this forum though if truth be told and where are all these casinos that you say are chomping at the bit to improve standards?
Not a Rep in sight.

I guess I will just have to reevaluate just how serious this forum and the casinos are about improving standards and leave it at that.

[Casinomeister]

Why because I don't think the points you make are valid and I have set out why?
I even accepted you offer for PM and you send me a petty message declining even that.
Frankly, I have had more productive and intelligent conversations with 10 year olds.

I'm not surprised in the least though, it was obvious from the start you had no interest in an open discussion unless it suited your own agenda.
You can deny that if you like but unless you make valid arguments instead of spurious accusations of twisted logic and recalcitrance I think it will remain pretty damn obvious to anyone who cares to read this thread.
It is a matter of record and that suits me fine.

Sad indictment on this forum though if truth be told and where are all these casinos that you say are chomping at the bit to improve standards?
Not a Rep in sight.

I guess I will just have to reevaluate just how serious this forum and the casinos are about improving standards and leave it at that.

Hey Rusty,

Actually this one is my baby since I set the policies here - always with input from members No need to hammer Max since I think he is just opting out of the discussion - he's busy with a number of PABs at the moment and this is more my realm.

Why haven't i-Gaming reps been participating here? Could be that I haven't drawn their attention to the thread. I plan to - just haven't done so yet. That could be a good reason why they haven't chimed in. I just haven't had the time to fully jump into this topic since this one is important and needs my undivided attention.

One problem with this thread is that it has taken a few swerves that have made this a real broad subject. This may call for a more concise thread being started or a synopsis made on this one.

I'm getting the newsletter out at the moment perhaps someone can assist in the above

That would be very cool.

[path]

An interesting and informed debate and thanks to those who have contributed thus far.

VWM quite correctly points out that 32Red would fail on two of the original criteria (as suggested by Rusty) and I would like to take this opportunity of explaining our thinking in these areas.

I do vaguely remember there being a poll here (towards the end of last year) on whether the ‘return to player’ or ‘payout percentage’ should be displayed for each and every game. I distinctly remember falling into the ‘undecided’ category and while I am fully in favour of adding and increasing transparency across all aspects of the industry I am undecided as to whether this measure would assist.

The actual 'statistical personality' (Payout Percentage, Volatility and Hit Rate) of a game can be considered the intellectual property of the provider and as a consequence I am sure they'll be loathe to release the exact details purely around competitive issues/pressures. A way around this would be to apply a range for these figures, but then that sort of defeats the purpose.
Again, I do recall reading that Bryan raised this very subject with Microgaming when he recently met with them on the Isle of Man and their response was very much that they wouldn’t do it as they need to protect their intellectual property.

If a payout percentage is posted for each game, I would be concerned about how that is interpreted and understood by the player. There's already some confusion in how players view this; some see it as 'expected' and others see it as an indicator as to how the game is currently performing. If a player sees this as an 'expected' rate of payout, how will that leave them feeling when their gameplay falls well short of this level? The tendency to 'cry foul' will potentially increase in turn leading to an increase in dissatisfied players. Equally, will this 'expected' rate also be seen as an 'advertised' rate, thus guaranteeing this level of return in the player's mind?
The latter points, I am sure, could be overcome by providing detailed explanations elsewhere on the site but will anyone bother to read them?

On the point of excluded games being locked out by the casino software, I am assuming that this will be for those occasions when a bonus is in play.

The Microgaming software, through its Bonus System, does allow restrictions on bet size, game weightings and game exclusions to be put in place and these settings all operate whilst there is a bonus in play. In the main, these settings are based on a percentage of the bonus awarded and can be set by individual game.

We don’t limit play on those games that do not count towards a bonus but we have a number of games (Craps and some of the Mega Spin slots) that carry a zero contribution towards the playthrough requirement of a bonus. These games, and the associated contribution, are clearly displayed in all the relevant Terms and Conditions of a bonus. So, while not physically locked it is clear that any play on the relevant game doesn’t count towards the playthrough requirements and I think this achieves the criteria as suggested.

We have chosen not to utilise the restrictions on bet size (within the casino software) as we don’t want to put any unnecessary barriers in the way of the true entertainment oriented gamblers. Our belief is that the first time experience of such an individual would surely be tainted when they attempt to place, say, a £50 bet and the software prevents them from so doing and displays a less than friendly error message. This is a moment of truth for a new player to 32Red and we want the experience to be as smooth and enjoyable as possible.

We do have a limit on stakes in place for play with our Welcome Bonus and this limit is only ever imposed when it comes to a player who is undoubtedly and systematically attempting to gain an advantage through bonus play and is implemented at the point of cash-in.

I trust that you see our reasons, for failing on two of the suggested criteria, as being valid and I look forward to seeing how this debate on Casino Standards unfolds.

Kind regards
Pat

[winbig]

If nobody wants to display the current payout % for a game, because of how players may interpret it, then why in the world does MGS have a "temperature" gauge to the right of each game, saying whether it's "due" for a jackpot hit, or not? That can be interpreted as either being "ice cold" or "ready." It's up to each player to decide. imo, this is sort of a 'false hope' indicator, and it could be weeks or months before that particular slot decides to pay off a jackpot spin.

So basically, what's the difference in having this temperature meter and displaying the current RTP%?

[felicie]

What would you all do without a stupid question to break your train of thought? winbig do you mean displayed somewhere other than what's on the 'payout' page of each slot? I never look at that page as it might start to ruin my feeling of 'random' or what is left of it anyway.

[winbig]

What would you all do without a stupid question to break your train of thought? winbig do you mean displayed somewhere other than what's on the 'payout' page of each slot? I never look at that page as it might start to ruin my feeling of 'random' or what is left of it anyway.

naw, not a stupid question, you got me thinking...lol

I guess it could be anywhere that the player could see it

[tesla]

I find one thing that quite a few accredited casinos are missing is great customer service. I've had numerous experiences with accredited casinos where the customer support isn't knowledgeable about what is going with the casino, doesn't report problems to the right department, or doesn't transfer the customer to the right person. Great customer service is the hallmark of many respected companies and I think this would be another standard to add to accredited casinos.

[jetset]

I guess that a resistance to change may also be at work with at least some providers, and that is something that will only be overcome if there is evidence of a real business reward (like not losing players to competitors that have agreed to publish RTP, for instance.)

That said, I can appreciate the potential problems raised by PatH from his 32Red and operator/provider perspective, and he is imo to be commended for being sufficiently interested to make a contribution.

Like Rusty, I hope other operators will come forward so that we can all achieve a more rounded view in this thread.

This is an interesting discussion in that it also raises questions on how player demands can effectively be defined and realised. Take for example Tesla's comment above regarding "great customer service" - something I value highly.

If this included in the criteria, how does one distil a subjective experience for a single individual into a fair and balanced judgement across a range of players significant enough to award or deny a superior level of accreditation? Does one assess it on the basis of available attributes or empirical experience in using the facility, and how?

@Rusty - may I suggest you keep it cool, man - I appreciate that you're defending a concept for which you have some passion, but there's no need to get aggressive in regard to the forum with comments like "Sad indictment on this forum though if truth be told..."

[felicie]

I find one thing that quite a few accredited casinos are missing is great customer service. I've had numerous experiences with accredited casinos where the customer support isn't knowledgeable about what is going with the casino, doesn't report problems to the right department, or doesn't transfer the customer to the right person. Great customer service is the hallmark of many respected companies and I think this would be another standard to add to accredited casinos.

CS is a big part of it to me also and I don't mean the slurpy bs kind. All it takes generally is one question, problem or cashout to bring out the 'real' cs attitude and I'd rather have someone with less knowledge as long as they are acting in a business like manner and want to help me find the answer than some arrogant jerk that knows it all and treats me like I know nothing more than dirt. I'm not going to deposit anywhere very long that just wants my money and not me. I also believe that a fair share of 'bad cs' may be due to 'bad mouth customers'. I can count on one hand the times I've been treated poorly or rudely in the last five years whether a good casino or shifty one and I figure it is because I always try to treat them the way I want them to treat me.