The whole PAB system is broken in my opinion

[nothappy]

[Max says: this thread was split off from Inetbet closes my account - You be the judge since is seemed to be a major topic in itself and a major derail from the original topic.]

This may sound harsh but it is not meant personal. It is meant as constructive criticism and to allow you to view this as the members here may. It must be obvious to many but:

The whole system set up here is broken in my opinion. You say that you should ask "how can I prove that I am not a fraud...etc?" Well then what? The casino will not respond. They have already gotten the "thumbs up" to steal the money from you based on your "findings" and I use that term loosely.

So, what you do here, in essence, is get a PaB and look into it. Sometimes this may take months and months. In the interim there is a sort of "gag order" that this cannot be discussed in public. Then when you finally decide what you think you write back a terse email stating that you think that the casino is ok with taking the money and in so you will now close that players forum account so that there can be NO rebuttal in public. However, what you WILL do is forward one last message from you to them. The issue is that they have likely bloody well been ignoring the player for months and they see that you will not berate them for the thievery in public, so why in the hell would they respond to a last plea for help from the player?
It is not a help when you do this. You silence the critics is what you do and the word doesnt get out. I am glad that I have seen gambling grumbles here. I will try and use them in the future. At least that person is interested enough to get both sides of the story.

You ask us to believe you without question. However, as in these public cases of chuchu and alicek, you are taking the side of the casino when they openly have lied about thier position. You have them falsifying things out in the open where we can all see it then you ask us to trust them and their decision to not pay someone or lock their account?

In AliceK's situation for example, they claim there was a bonus yet GG states there was no bonus used in her last several LARGE deposits. This person obviously sent in documents also based on the story. it is too far of a reach for us to think that the player is evil and bad and cheating and deserves to be stolen from when they were not doing anything remotely profitable other than gambling with their own funds. so you can say that you can divulge ZERO information. The information that GG gave was a slamdunk case against the casino. Especially when they lied to the writer about many things.

My point in this ramble is that the way you conduct the PaB is good for the casino. It keeps the complaint out of the public view and basically silences them. You offer no real retort nor do you ask for much in the way of proof from the player. You get most of your info from the casino side.
All of that is broken and I tend to believe gambling grumbles over this site based on those things. Especiallly the transparency issue.

[DiamondGeezer]

I think a lot of what you say nothappy can be classed as 'fair comment' and your argument is well put. Howver I think you are very misguided in throwing the ills of the casino industry at Bryan's and Max's door. It's hardly their fault this industry has such poor legislation. Infact quite the contrary as they have campaigned tirelessly for more competent and robust legislation. They have highlighted the Malta failings and rogued Betfair and deserve a lot of credit for that.

The PAB process can never be perfect and it is inevitible that sometimes good upstanding players will get ripped off. Mistakes are inevitible given the volume of work they receive. Not to mention the fraudsters who waste a huge amount of their time with bogus claims. And on occasion casinos will lie to them also.

I have to say I yearn for the day this industry gets put on a more professional footing with regulation and an independant ombudsman doing the job that Max does. I'm sure Bryan and Max hope for that as much as we do, it's not like the PAB side is integral to the business model. You could even argue that CM might do better if they weren't involved in the PAB process and operated by promoting the forum and just reviewing casinos and providing a news feed. I'm sure they would have much easier lives and would still be very successful.

I share your frustration nothappy but I also think Max and Bryan do a very difficult job very well. But also they are human and aren't going to get iright every time. I would never doubt their integrity.

[Nifty29]

I think a lot of what you say nothappy can be classed as 'fair comment' and your argument is well put. Howver I think you are very misguided in throwing the ills of the casino industry at Bryan's and Max's door. It's hardly their fault this industry has such poor legislation. Infact quite the contrary as they have campaigned tirelessly for more competent and robust legislation. They have highlighted the Malta failings and rogued Betfair and deserve a lot of credit for that.

The PAB process can never be perfect and it is inevitible that sometimes good upstanding players will get ripped off. Mistakes are inevitible given the volume of work they receive. Not to mention the fraudsters who waste a huge amount of their time with bogus claims. And on occasion casinos will lie to them also.

I have to say I yearn for the day this industry gets put on a more professional footing with regulation and an independant ombudsman doing the job that Max does. I'm sure Bryan and Max hope for that as much as we do, it's not like the PAB side is integral to the business model. You could even argue that CM might do better if they weren't involved in the PAB process and operated by promoting the forum and just reviewing casinos and providing a news feed. I'm sure they would have much easier lives and would still be very successful.

I share your frustration nothappy but I also think Max and Bryan do a very difficult job very well. But also they are human and aren't going to get iright every time. I would never doubt their integrity.

Interesting.

Could you please provide some examples of when "a good upstanding player" has been "ripped off" by the PAB process? Are you referring to your own use of the PAB service?

I don't think its unreasonable to ask you to substantiate such a serious accusation.

@nothappy

It sounds a little like sour grapes on your part. I hope this isn't the case. Bryan and Max have a theory about players that demand to know how they were "caught".

[DiamondGeezer]

Interesting.

Could you please provide some examples of when "a good upstanding player" has been "ripped off" by the PAB process? Are you referring to your own use of the PAB service?

I could have put that bit better - "Ripped off" was meant in the context of casinos ripping off players followind an unsuccessful PAB. It wasn't meant to be a comment on the PAB process atall, just what can happen if the PAB process can't work for whatever reason.

As far as my own use of PAB is concerned it was very successful and I am most grateful to Max for the work he did on my behalf. However I would much prefer beefed up regulation plus an independant ombudsman. Being from the UK I would also like to see online casinos based in the UK if they are to service the UK market. Also I would like to see these guys pay some tax.

I'll stop now as this is going way off topic - sorry Chuchu.

[maxd]

For now I've moved these posts to their own thread since any discussion of this topic -- and I have a funny feeling there will be plenty -- will be a major and continued derail from the original topic (Inetbet closes my account - You be the judge). As you might imagine I have a few comments of my own but they'll have to wait until after I get some shut-eye.

[DiamondGeezer]

I hope nothappy doesn't get troll accusations just because he/she has a different opinion. Also it'e easy to make mistakes and not get one's point accross quite right just like I did a few posts above.

The fraud accusation certainly does put the PAB process in a real bind. In truth things would may not be a lot different if there was some kind of independant adjudicator as a lot of the same situations would no doubt arise. I think it's always going to be very tough dealing with player fraud as regards disclosure. And certainly there is a lot of fraud attempted by players. I would like to see more independance but ofcourse the reality may be that it could be very disappointing.

The worry behind any webmaster complaints model is casinos are capable of using fraud as cloak to deny payment to players if they have made some kind of promotional blunder. These don't happen often but when they do can be spectacular.

It's very tough to strike a balance.

[gaydave]

Interesting.

Could you please provide some examples of when "a good upstanding player" has been "ripped off" by the PAB process? Are you referring to your own use of the PAB service?

I don't think its unreasonable to ask you to substantiate such a serious accusation.

@nothappy

It sounds a little like sour grapes on your part. I hope this isn't the case. Bryan and Max have a theory about players that demand to know how they were "caught".

I don't want to sound badgering but how would anyone ever know if a good upstanding player got ripped off the way it is currently set up? If YOU, Nifty, were to be called a fraud by a casino and your money stolen then you pab'd here a likely result would be Max asking the casino about it, the casino saying "its fraud, this guy is connected to other players, they play same games, use same payment processor, blah, blah, blah..." then Max coming back and telling you that the casino has some evidence against you and that you are now locked out of the forum for pab abuse... therefore you cannot tell your story. You may send in a last statement to the casino that Max or Bryan will forward for you, in which the casino will then wipe their collective buttocks with it and be happy that they didn't have to pay you any of those winnings.
To make a long story short, how would you tell us that you were ripped off? I can recall several, several players that made complaints then were told to stop while the pab was going on. I have seen some players scream innocence and say that they will do anything to prove it on this board with nothing being done (I know it is not part of the pab process and that Max/Bryan cannot force anything from a casino........ but they can put pressure). http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...inst-lock.html in specific look at post 8.... heck, read the whole thing. So the onus is on the player to prove himself. Who is listnening? Nobody, because the casino is not interested in getting it right, they are interested in not paying.

I agree very much that the process could use refining.

Why is it that the inetbet posters had their forum accounts locked? Odd that they have no way to rebutt the theft of the casino I would say.

[Nifty29]

I don't want to sound badgering but how would anyone ever know if a good upstanding player got ripped off the way it is currently set up? If YOU, Nifty, were to be called a fraud by a casino and your money stolen then you pab'd here a likely result would be Max asking the casino about it, the casino saying "its fraud, this guy is connected to other players, they play same games, use same payment processor, blah, blah, blah..." then Max coming back and telling you that the casino has some evidence against you and that you are now locked out of the forum for pab abuse... therefore you cannot tell your story. You may send in a last statement to the casino that Max or Bryan will forward for you, in which the casino will then wipe their collective buttocks with it and be happy that they didn't have to pay you any of those winnings.
To make a long story short, how would you tell us that you were ripped off? I can recall several, several players that made complaints then were told to stop while the pab was going on. I have seen some players scream innocence and say that they will do anything to prove it on this board with nothing being done (I know it is not part of the pab process and that Max/Bryan cannot force anything from a casino........ but they can put pressure). http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...inst-lock.html in specific look at post 8.... heck, read the whole thing. So the onus is on the player to prove himself. Who is listnening? Nobody, because the casino is not interested in getting it right, they are interested in not paying.

I agree very much that the process could use refining.

Why is it that the inetbet posters had their forum accounts locked? Odd that they have no way to rebutt the theft of the casino I would say.

In other words, you don't trust Bryan and Max. I've tried to find another angle that you might be coming from, but I keep coming back to that one fact.

Instead of pointing out how terribly unfairly the PAB process treats fraudsters, how about coming up with a different process? You could lay it out right here for us. Who knows, maybe it will be adopted.

The major sticking point with PABs has always been that the exact nature of the evidence provided by the casino, along with the methods used to collect said evidence, is never published for all to see. The only people who see it are Max and Bryan, so it comes down to whether you trust their judgement having SEEN all the evidence (whilst you have not). It's really very simple. If you don't think that they are intelligent enough to sort the wheat from the chaff and decide what constitutes evidence and what doesn't, why on earth woulld you even be here? If I thought that I would be out of here like a shot.

There are two kinds of people who insist on seeing all the evidence in this forum (IMO)........the person perpetrating the fraud and other fraudsters looking for ways to better ply their trade, and the downright nosey. Neither have any legitimate argument.

As for me being accused of fraud? It's been 14 years without incident for me. Funny how others just seem to have problems consistently. I guess I'm just lucky huh?

[chayton]

deja vu all over again...

[pinkfloyd]

i could also see innocent parties looking for proof nifty , its a weird tightrope the people here walk , protecting accredited casinos from bad false accusations , hiding the way fraudsters are caught to protect the industry.
i myself cant think of a better way to do it unless the whole damn industry is 200 % regulated and if operators faced 100 % closure and fines for ripping off players we might not need the pab sigh dream of the day.
we have players committing fraud and casinos like coolcat committing fraud and we have suffering people in countries that are forced through 100 x playthrough or who are totally banned from even joining a casino because of what others have done previously.
i have to admit in the years ive been playing ive never had an issue mainly thanks to this site and avoiding listed rouge casinos and such tho if i was accused of fraud my level of calmness would be a result of the amount and id be on here screaming blue murder for a large amount and proof if i thought i was falsely accused.

the system might not be perfect but its the best dam system we got .