The whole PAB system is broken in my opinion

[Casinomeister]

I choose a)

Sorry Brucake, I'm not going to explain it any further. I'm sure you know where I'm coming from

[chuchu59]

Many of the members in this forum will vouch for questions to have already been answered but for those who are infrequent visitors there are doubts in the mind. We know that we cant be too explicit about everything but some enquirers simply want to know more. I read the case about Alicek at GG and they seem to have a point in stating that just too little was divulged. Maybe its time we had a hard look at what constitutes fraud and the most that can be relayed to the player without compromising the need to keep the methods of detecting fraud under wraps. Otherwise, it will continue to sow seeds of distrust between casino and player.

[Casinomeister]

Many of the members in this forum will vouch for questions to have already been answered but for those who are infrequent visitors there are doubts in the mind. We know that we cant be too explicit about everything but some enquirers simply want to know more. I read the case about Alicek at GG and they seem to have a point in stating that just too little was divulged. Maybe its time we had a hard look at what constitutes fraud and the most that can be relayed to the player without compromising the need to keep the methods of detecting fraud under wraps. Otherwise, it will continue to sow seeds of distrust between casino and player.

I understand totally where you are coming from. Perhaps when I get back, I'll come up with a laundry list of what constitutes fraud. In fact while I'm at the EIG, I'll hit up any operators that I run into and get their opinions as well.

[chayton]

Well there are two sides:

1. There have been issues in the past where honest players were *caught in a fraud ring net.
2. I've yet to see a player who got caught knowingly commiting fraud NOT continue to deny they did anything wrong - as loudly and as often as possible.

*As far as I'm aware, most of the innocents were cleared in time, right?

[Nifty29]

It's important to differentiate between the legal definition of fraud (cue Vinylweatherman QC) and the online casino definition of fraud.

When we talk about "fraud" in relation to online casinos, it doesn't necessarily mean a strictly criminal act has been committed, although this may sometimes be the case. It seems there are some who object to the term "fraud" when it relates to players trying to cheat/ripoff a casino, but it really is just a general term used to cover such things as multi-accounting to claim multiple bonuses, multiplayer table game collusion, ID fraud (misrepresentation of one's true indentity), use of bots, etc. The only reason I think it's used at all is for lack of another term that covers this kind of wide range in behaviours.

The way I see it, as long as the casino can provide solid evidence to an independent third party with integrity (e.g. CM PAB) that the player has committed a "fraudulent act", as per the definition above, then there is absolutely no need to publish it for all to see.

As Bryan and Max have alluded to, the only members who are really belly-aching about "seeing all the evidence" are the ones who have either been in trouble before, or who have a huge chip on their shoulder when it comes to certain online casinos. You might think that assessment is harsh, but one only has to go back over their posting history to see what's what.

The vast majority of the membership are happy to trust that Bryan and Max are fair-minded and even-handed, and that is because there has never been a situation where this hasn't been the case.....except of course for the fraudsters and their buddies, and the players who have yet to be caught, who will cry and gnash their teeth because their PAB has failed, and they are none the wiser about how they got caught.

One thing I know from experience. CM does not make decisions based on commercial interests, and does not allow any casino to be involved in the site that has displayed behaviour that does not meet with strict standards....which is more than I can say for Gambling Grumblers who are happy to take cash from the lowest of the low.

Integrity is everything in this industry, and CM has consistently proven that he has it in spades.

[felicie]

Moved the iNetBet conversation back to the original thread here:
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...you-judge.html

Back to the topic at hand. It would be nice to hear a response from NotHappy who is not happy with the PAB system and how it could be fixed.

But then, it is a free service, and like Max has illustrated - those who are unhappy with the PAB service are clearly in the minority. So in my opinion, it's far from broken. And if it's not broke, why fix it?

That's what I said, for the price you can't beat it! Period. thank you.

[gaydave]

It's important to differentiate between the legal definition of fraud (cue Vinylweatherman QC) and the online casino definition of fraud.

When we talk about "fraud" in relation to online casinos, it doesn't necessarily mean a strictly criminal act has been committed, although this may sometimes be the case. It seems there are some who object to the term "fraud" when it relates to players trying to cheat/ripoff a casino, but it really is just a general term used to cover such things as multi-accounting to claim multiple bonuses, multiplayer table game collusion, ID fraud (misrepresentation of one's true indentity), use of bots, etc. The only reason I think it's used at all is for lack of another term that covers this kind of wide range in behaviours.

I agree. That is what is frustrating members about the alicek complaint. It wasn't for multi bonuses, it wasn't multi tabling/multiplayer, it wasn't ID fraud. What was it then? Don't say HOW she was "caught" just state what the charges are so that we can drop the issue or give her a chance to at least defend against the charges. The general FRAUD call can't be right in this case on the info given. It is frustrating to be told to just trust someone when there is no need for blind trust. Just a specific charge would have ended this topic before it ever started.

[Nifty29]

I agree. That is what is frustrating members about the alicek complaint. It wasn't for multi bonuses, it wasn't multi tabling/multiplayer, it wasn't ID fraud. What was it then? Don't say HOW she was "caught" just state what the charges are so that we can drop the issue or give her a chance to at least defend against the charges. The general FRAUD call can't be right in this case on the info given. It is frustrating to be told to just trust someone when there is no need for blind trust. Just a specific charge would have ended this topic before it ever started.

".......on the info given....."

......TO YOU.

What makes YOU think that the casino or Max/CM should provide YOU with all the relevant evidence?

What YOU really want is a "trial by forum" where all the information is disclosed publically and a vote taken. Of course, it would also be a boon for those who are, or are planning to, cheat the casinos. It is this category of player who insists the most strongly that all should be revealed.

What is your angle GAYdave? Can you explain why it is those who have been in trouble previously, or who have been associated with such people, who are really the only people going off the deep end about it all? It just seems incredible that one would make so much noise about someone they don't know.....unless you do know them?

I'm even more surprised that someone who has expressed so little trust in, or respect for, the ideology of this site would bother even posting or even being a member. You should stick with Gumball Grumbles and their advertisers.....I'm sure they'll see you right.

[chuchu59]

The regular posters are not the only viewers of this forum. Most of us regulars trust Bryan and Max and their integrity is never in doubt. However, we must understand there are many, many players out there looking for info on online gaming and not being well acquainted with this place. They will be asking questions and wont simply be satisfied with the words'Have faith in Bryan' though this is what I believe in. The traffic to this site is huge and if it is to develop further we have to be more open-minded.

Meanwhile I paid the GG site a couple of visits. Maybe not the same one when Julie was in charge but it does seem player-friendly and sure to attract more newbies than this site I venture to say. Players will feel more at ease over there because they will not come accross hardened posters like myself. The grumbles seemed to be handled professionally and it seemed they were willing to hear both sides of the story. Not that I trust them but other players will if it seems they are willing to listen.

[jetset]

If GG does a good and honest job as is done here, then I say strength to their arm - there are probably plenty of players out there looking for help as well as manipulators trying to secure an advantage or apply pressure to particular operators.

I don't believe that site is serious competition for Casinomeister, which has a slew of other features that keep the traffic flowing in and a faithful following.

Given his frustration with CM, maybe Gaydave should spend some time over at GG to get the answers he so desperately appears to require?