The whole PAB system is broken in my opinion

[Nifty29]

Please do not put words in my mouth. As I noted in my earlier post, I obviously think that my way of working is better or else I would change it. At the same time, Max (and CM) think their system of working is better or else they would change it.

I have never said anything even approaching "CM has it all wrong". Not only did I not say it, I would not say it.

Then why post those examples? Seems that it could only be to highlight what you perceive to be the PABs shortcomings....either that or just to promote your site. Either I find inappropriate given you are posting it here.

No, I am publishing decisions that are not based on all the accusations. There is a big difference between "accusations" and "facts". I am certainly willing to report any accusation made by a casino against a player, but if the casino puts it "off the record" I simply disregard it as there is no way for the player to refute it.

Let's say that I were to write to CM and tell him that "Nifty29 met with me in Milan on Oct 15 and told me that if Gambling Grumbles did not pay him $10,000 he would attack us on various bulletin boards." Would that be a fact or an accusation? How would you react if CM were to ban you, based on this accusation, without ever telling you what I had accused you of because I put it "off the record"?

On the other hand, if you were told the specifications, you might be able to pull out your passport and prove that you were in Thailand for the entire month of October.

Generally, however, when a casino makes an untrue accusation it is not purposely telling a lie. It has simply come to the wrong conclusion. It can be very certain of what it is saying and still be wrong. This, however, can not be proven unless the player is given the details of the accusation and the possibility of disproving it.

Keep in mind that while the player might convince me with less than overwhelming evidence, the most he will get out of that is a report favoring him. That is not what a player wants. He wants his money. To get it, he has to prove his case to the casino's satisfaction and that is a much heavier burden. Yet, because we were able to present all the details of the accusations, players have, indeed, proven their innocence to casinos and received their money.

Well you're entitled to your opinion Steve. The evidence an operator provides is almost always written e.g. account data, play history, ip, etc, so I don't know what relevance your Milan scenario has.....but since you mentioned it, I believe what max would do is simply ask for proof of where I was at that time. He doesn't need to tell me why. It's not a good example of why you feel full public disclosure is the way forward.

Anyway back to the evidence thing.....

If a casino.shows you waterproof documentary evidence of fraud, but will not allow it to be published, you are saying that you would report in the player's favor even though you may even be convinced yourself? What about going back to the player yourself and asking pertinent questions, and compare the answers to what the casino showed you? It is ridiculous to say that the ONLY way to ascertain a players innocence is to give them all the evidence the casino has....that's what the fraudsters want....and you're serving it up.

As I said, you are saying that even though you are convinced a player is guilty you will report otherwise if the casino doesn't accept your terms (IMO akin to blackmail). How anyone can claim any kind of high ground with that attitude defies belief.

My prediction is that you will be inundated with fraudsters who know they can't lose either way, and that many good operators will refuse to deal with you due to your lack of respect for their security processes. Of course i could be wrong, but time will tell.

You're not entirely accurate about fraudsters only wanting their money....they also want as much leverage and support as they can muster to attempt to make it cheaper for the casino to pay up than continue to stand by their conclusions. Just look at the threads around here lately....don't just take my word for it. Again, you're playing right into their hands IMO.

[Simmo!]

Whatever happens I believe it is wrong to publish any information that may enlighten fraudsters or potential fraudsters with methods of perpetrating fraud or detection.

What Is also good is that both CM and GG offer a service to players with different approaches. It gives the player two different avenues to persue if they so wish. It might be an idea for the two sites to perhaps share some info on specific cases if they don't already?

[Steve Russo]

As I said, you are saying that even though you are convinced a player is guilty you will report otherwise if the casino doesn't accept your terms (IMO akin to blackmail). How anyone can claim any kind of high ground with that attitude defies belief.

There you go again -- putting words in my mouth.

I have never said that I will report otherwise if I am convinced a player is guilty.

What I said is that I will not take "off the record" information into consideration when reporting on a dispute. Such information never convinces me that a player is guilty. Likewise, unsupported allegations by a player never convince me that a casino is guilty.

I am not overly impressed by charges made by either side. Nor do screenshots provided by players or account records given to me by casinos make too much of an impression on me -- I have seen falsified examples of both.

Generally, what does convince me is one of three things:

1. The failure of a casino to even respond.

2. A statement (by either side) which is against that side's interest (and, believe it or not, that happens very often, albeit generally unintentionally).

3. The most common of all: an agreement by both sides on the facts, with only the interpretation of those facts being at dispute.

Today I wrote a report (it is not yet posted) which is an example of # 2 and, had I contacted the casino (which I did not) would be an example of # 3.

I received a complaint from a player who felt that he was unfairly being required to play a very high playthrough. It came down to £48,865 play in blackjack for a £39 bonus.

Do I think that is overly harsh? Yes, and I said so. Do I feel that the casino was at fault in this case? No -- because its website clearly states the bonus T&Cs. The player gave me the link to the T&Cs -- hence, it is an example of # 2 above.

This left me with nothing to ask the casino about, hence no reason to write to it. Still, if I had, it would simply have said the same thing as the player --that these are the terms of the bonus. This would make it a good example of # 3 above.

[LHofsdal]

The way I see it, Gambling Grumbles and Casinomeister are here to help reach a solution to players complaints. Each has their own way of doing. Is it right, is it wrong? That is a matter of opinion. I personally have never had to use either of their services, (thankfully), but what I do see is this....

I see that both places are here to find out what went wrong and if there is a possible solution. Without either site/system where would players be that needed assistaance? Are they flawed? Perhaps, but I don't see the flaws as being big enough or major to make the system "broken" in anyway. GG and CM can only make decisions on the evidence provided to them, wether or not it is true is what the investigation process is all about. If one side does not want to provide any details or evidence that is their right, and then a SUGGESTION is made. This is not gospel folks, you either heed to the suggestion or not. That is your right.

As for revealing what type of fraud has occurred, it is usually revealed, like multi-accounts, signatures don't match up etc. But in no way should they reveal anything other than that, trust me when I say people are dishonest and will go to all extremes to lie, steal and cheat. I have said it before, I worked for a major retail for 21 years before I retired, and I have witnessed this first hand. It is no different here with online gaming.

Yes mistakes can be made, and owning up to those mistakes is vital to a reputation of an online casino. Having the trust of these casino is VITAL to both GG and CM. Without this trust, neither site would be worth squat, the casinos would not work with them and where would that leave all players in need of help?

Bottom line here, GG and CM are 2 separate sites, handle things in separate ways, but they are here for the same purpose, TO HELP PLAYERS IN NEED. In my book, how they do it is not my business, as long as they can help in anyway is all I care about. If it wasn't for these sites, just think of all the money that would have been lost to players and made by the casinos.

Instead of trying to find fault with these places, how about a pat on the back to say THANK YOU. After all they are doing it for free and taking time out of their day to help someone else.

I will be the first one to stand in line to pat these gentlemen on the back, because I sincerely THANK YOU for all the hard work you guys do to help us players.

Lori