Complaints Section

[maxd]

Moderating the complaints from newbies does not concern the validity of the issues at stake but rather the tone of the posts to ensure they dont go overboard.

Moderating for "tone" is standard procedure, then and now. Unfortunately that doesn't cover the problems we were having in the Complaints section.

My point is that the high degree of troll, lamer and fraudster activity -- seen throughout the industry I might add, including the casinos, the PABs, here on the boards, you name it -- needed to be curtailed.

We were becoming the troller and fraudster's first weapon of choice against the casinos -- or whomever they might have a beef with -- such that we not only host their lies but waste our time and effort on their bogus issues?!? That's just plain wrong and something needed to be done about it.

The bottom line is you either curb the bad dogs or they'll curb you, and there are a lot of bad doggies out there these days.

[SteveCut]

Is there some way that newbies could be allowed to start a new thread unrestrictedly, but that thread would then be made accessible only to the poster and to senior members? That would resolve the problem, wouldn't it?

[Casinomeister]

Is there some way that newbies could be allowed to start a new thread unrestrictedly, but that thread would then be made accessible only to the poster and to senior members? That would resolve the problem, wouldn't it?

No not really. And I don't think that would solve the problem.

The real problem we're having is that most of the new members who sign up disregard the rules - especially when it comes to posting complaints. This forum has guidelines and procedures. How many newbies post a complaint and never PM the casino rep. I'd say about a 100% of them. Many of the old-timers do the same btw. It's frustrating and time consuming to say the least.

For some reason, a number of members here are under the impression that posting public complaints is the norm - it's not. Most players never have to complain because they don't have any. And those that do have their issues dealt with by customer service.

Newbies have to earn the right to post public complaints. It's a privilege ,and I would think that fully registered members and above would feel the same way.

We're still looking at solutions and always open for suggestions btw.

[SteveCut]

Then, as Chuchu suggested, maybe moderate new posts in this section and check that the poster has followed the correct procedures before being allowed to go public with his complaint?

Would this really be a lot more work for the moderators? They already have to be very active in this section. It would just require action before the event rather than after it.

[maxd]

... moderate new posts in this section and check that the poster has followed the correct procedures ....

So, how would that work?

• Newbie posts and the post gets dropped in the moderation queue.
  
• We see the post and then try to chase the OP down in order to determine that they have both contacted CS and the rep if there is one, but ...
  
• Emails fly back and forth for a while 'cause people don't answer right away, etc, and ...
  
• Half the time people use bogus emails or never answer or they've got spam filters that block us out ...
  
• tap tap tap, we're wasting a lot of time here and the post hasn\t even made it out of the queue yet!
  
• Ok fine, turns out the OP has contacted CS but not the rep ... they want to know who the rep is, we point them to the rep list ...

Am I making my point yet? It doesn't work! Too much time is blown hand-holding and baby sitting for folks that are simply too damn lazy to read a little and follow some basic procedures.

The bottom line is that folks that are willing to read the rules and spend 5 minutes absorbing them are going to head to the PAB section, as instructed, and get their show on the road ... if it needs to go that way.

Nobody is saying that the current system is perfect but as I pointed out above there is a real problem here and the solution is not to simply heap more work on the Mods.

[KasinoKing]

Newbies have to earn the right to post public complaints. It's a privilege ,and I would think that fully registered members and above would feel the same way.

We're still looking at solutions and always open for suggestions btw.

I can see both sides of the coin here, and do appreciate the problems that have arisen, but my main concern with the new rules is that I think they are too restrictive.
30 days membership and 100 posts... that's a long time & a lot of posts!

However I can see more problems if you made it just say 10 posts before a complaint can be made - cos then you'd get people making 10 posts of drivel just so they would qualify to complain properly...

Another obvious problem is complaints come in different degrees; some are out-right casino bashing, while others are more passive & minor. Moderation seems to be the only sensible solution; a human decision to allow the post to become public or not, but only if you have the resources to cover this. Then you'd have to look out for being accused of 'favoritism' to some casinos...
Hmmm... It's a right can of worms isn't it!

Maybe all the moderators could discuss this face-to-face in London next week...?
(I'm assuming you'll all be there for the trade events).

KK

[SteveCut]

maxd wrote:
So, how would that work?

* Newbie posts and the post gets dropped in the moderation queue.
* We see the post and then try to chase the OP down in order to determine that they have both contacted CS and the rep if there is one, but ...
* Emails fly back and forth for a while 'cause people don't answer right away, etc, and ...
* Half the time people use bogus emails or never answer or they've got spam filters that block us out ...
* tap tap tap, we're wasting a lot of time here and the post hasn\t even made it out of the queue yet!
* Ok fine, turns out the OP has contacted CS but not the rep ... they want to know who the rep is, we point them to the rep list ...

Well that sure sounds like a lot of work!
But I'm a little confused as to where the work actually is?

1. How do emails fly back and forth if the OP doesn't answer?
2. If the OP doesn't answer then no further action is needed.
3. If they use a bogus email then no further action is needed.
4. If they lose our email in their spam then no further action is needed other than to re-send our original email if requested.
5. The information about the rep could be put in our original email.

So in almost every case we need to send one email, and in rare cases re-send it. That email could also be automated.

Surely that's less work than the moderators are doing now, after the event?

Am I making my point yet? It doesn't work!

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but, to be frank; no, I still can't see your point or why it couldn't work.

Too much time is blown hand-holding and baby sitting for folks that are simply too damn lazy to read a little and follow some basic procedures.

The bottom line is that folks that are willing to read the rules and spend 5 minutes absorbing them are going to head to the PAB section, as instructed, and get their show on the road ... if it needs to go that way.

Most newcomers to this forum would not understand that such importance is attached to following the rules here. How many people, unless their money will be at risk, actually read all the terms & conditions of everything they register for. I sure as hell don't. I just the click the checkbox like almost everyone else does. That's how people are, and that's not going to change whether you have pedantic rules or accuse them of being lazy. Is it too much to ask to send them one automated email or PM?

Also, most people in the world do not have English as a first language. Maybe it's not so simple for them? I've even read senior members here arguing with them over English grammatical semantics! Johaidii!

I enjoy this forum, but I'm not keen on the authoritarian ambience here. Sometimes it feels to me as if many genuine PAB'ers and complainers, (unless intelligent, organised, non-lazy native English speakers - and even sometimes then!) are treated as bloody nuisances or probable fraudsters rather than the lifeblood of the CM forum.

Yes, it's more work - that's tough, but unfortunately imperfect people also have grievances. Are we here to help them or obstruct them?

[Casinomeister]

I can see both sides of the coin here, and do appreciate the problems that have arisen, but my main concern with the new rules is that I think they are too restrictive.
30 days membership and 100 posts... that's a long time & a lot of posts!

However I can see more problems if you made it just say 10 posts before a complaint can be made - cos then you'd get people making 10 posts of drivel just so they would qualify to complain properly...

Another obvious problem is complaints come in different degrees; some are out-right casino bashing, while others are more passive & minor. Moderation seems to be the only sensible solution; a human decision to allow the post to become public or not, but only if you have the resources to cover this. Then you'd have to look out for being accused of 'favoritism' to some casinos...
Hmmm... It's a right can of worms isn't it!

Maybe all the moderators could discuss this face-to-face in London next week...?
(I'm assuming you'll all be there for the trade events).

KK

Sure I could set up a "newbie" usergroup which is less stringent. Or better yet, I could set up a "whiners club" which you opt in. This would give you access to the complaints section before your newbie-ness transpires. By opting in, any violation of the rules while complaining would boot you from the group. Thus you can't post in the complaints section until your time comes.

That might work.

[maxd]

@SteveCut: Are you trying to be a PITA or is it just working out that way?

I'm not keen on the authoritarian ambience here ...

We're trying to clean the trolls, fraudsters and lamers out of the Complaints forums and that equates to "authoritarianism"? Wow, that's a pretty heroic stretch there Mr. Steve. I could reiterate the point about posting in Complaints or and other forum being a privilege and all that -- hence it not being an "authoritarian" issue by any flight of the imagination -- but I get the distinct feeling that you're not listening.

But I'm a little confused as to where the work actually is? ... So in almost every case we need to send one email, and in rare cases re-send it. That email could also be automated.

It may be that you have a gift for organization that I can only marvel at, but I doubt it. I think it's much more likely that you are making guess-timates about something you know nothing about. No offense but your conclusions are worth exactly the effort you've put into them.

When you start moderating posts for compliance to the Complaints rules and procedures you are basically dealing with a somewhat less formal PAB situation. I know from the personal experience of organizing and managing the PAB handling process this past year that that effort adds up to several hours per day. You don't believe me, or think you know better? Based on what, exactly? How is it that you personally have this special insight into these processes?

My guess is that you don't, so let me ball-park it for you. 5-10 newbie Complaints posts per day (that's a bit high) X 10-ish minutes per post including emails and follow-up work (that's a bit low) works out to at least 1 or 2 hours extra effort every day, so 5-10 hours per week, minimum. Assuming that I need to take that time out of the PAB processing that's about 2 or 3 fewer PABs processed per week, minimum, or approx 1/3 fewer PABs per month. And then you say ...

Yes, it's more work - that's tough, but unfortunately imperfect people also have grievances. Are we here to help them or obstruct them?

I think you have your answer: I can police the crap that unrestricted posting invites in Complaints or I can process about 10-12 PABs per month. Are you going to be our "that's tough" liaison to those people who would've been able to PAB but now we have to say "no, sorry, no can do" to? Somehow I think not.

I suggest you look for a better solution to this problem than telling me I'm full of BS. There are only so many people on staff here and so many hours in the day: we have to allocate those resources as best we can. Your so-called "authoritarian" decisions are based on a lot more thought, effort and desire to help people with real issues than you give us credit for.

[Casinomeister]

Most newcomers to this forum would not understand that such importance is attached to following the rules here. How many people, unless their money will be at risk, actually read all the terms & conditions of everything they register for. I sure as hell don't. I just the click the checkbox like almost everyone else does. That's how people are, and that's not going to change whether you have pedantic rules or accuse them of being lazy. Is it too much to ask to send them one automated email or PM?

They are PMd when they join with full instructions on how to file and post complaints.

There is no authoritarian ambiance here. We are merely keeping things organized. These are not pedantic rules - these are forum rules.

We have rules not to post spam, rules against flaming, rules against cross-posting and derailing threads. This is the same thing. There are guidelines and you need to follow them. Newbies don't do it the majority of the time, so they are disallowed the privilege to post complaints. Simple as that.

Sheesh! You act like we've told everyone "no more complaining"