Grand Duke denied slot winnings, cited self-contradictory terms

[Vetal]

Yes, yes, I know. Read forum first, then play in the casino, not play and then write on the forum. I normally follow that rule, but this is a Playtech and I was going to play non-progressive slots only, and my deposit was not very large, so somehow I felt safe.

So I will have to add another Grand Duke story. I deposited 100 dollars, got a 100 dollar bonus, played slots, hit a win on a freespin feature, finished the playthrough, cashed out 750 dollars. Then my cashout was denied, deposit returned to Click2pay and after several emails asking for clarification I got the following:

As stated in our Terms and Conditions, your bonuses are subject to review for
irregular playing patterns. To ensure fair gaming and the proper use of
bonuses, we consider low margin betting, equal betting, zero risk bets or
hedge betting to be irregular gaming when deployed to exploit bonuses.

You may refer to this link; http://www.grandduke.com/terms-and-conditions
under “Bonuses, Comps, and Promotions” for additional information.

So apparently they have additional bonus terms hidden in the general terms. I read those. And I found them to be self-contradictory. They first say that the following is not allowed:

Wagering based on one specific slot machine, in order to significantly increase a bankroll, in relevance to the initial betting amount, and then switching to another game

and then they go on by saying


In order to be eligible for withdrawal, you must have winnings from multiple games, in which winnings from any single game cannot exceed 50% of the total amount of the withdrawal request


So after one hits a win he cannot switch to another game. But he has to win a comparable amount in another game. This is impossible. According to those terms no slot player can cash out after redeeming a bonus and winning.

[KasinoKing]

How come this sham of a casino is STILL not in the rogue pit?

KK

[Vetal]

How come this sham of a casino is STILL not in the rogue pit?

KK

That is exactly the point. Furthermore, I want it to be put in as many rogue pits as possible, i.e. condemned by as many authorities as possible. I would appreciate if someone can tell me where else I can complain. Is there anything I (we) can do in order to help them loosing Playtech license?

[me_and_ed]

What I dont understand (I actually do, its purely based on $$) is why a major software provider like Playtech that is supposed to pride themself on fair gaming allows these kind of F.U clause outs for any of their licensees, I am sure they know but just turn a blind eye, total lack of respect for the players. Its too bad that there isnt an international legislation for online gaming......in a perfect world.

[maxd]

FYI, "Grand Duke: no pay and questionable practices" was recently posted in the Warnings section.

[vinylweatherman]

That is exactly the point. Furthermore, I want it to be put in as many rogue pits as possible, i.e. condemned by as many authorities as possible. I would appreciate if someone can tell me where else I can complain. Is there anything I (we) can do in order to help them loosing Playtech license?

They did exactly the same a couple of weeks ago. Player had decent slot win, no other "strategy" involved, and winnings were confiscated.

It seems the intent of this term is to deny ANY withdrawal after a player has hit big on a slot. You are correct in saying that having hit big on a slot, it is then IMPOSSIBLE to obey this set of terms whatever you do. You CANNOT manipulate the games in order to get another decent win of another slot, and in order to obey the 50% rule you would need THREE lucky hits on separate games, as with two, one or the other is still going to be over 50%. Then, if you hit big and switch to a different game, you ALSO risk having your winnings confiscated UNLESS you actually win on this other game, and are able to go to a third, and win yet again.

I am also surprised that they are not yet in the pit having stuck to their guns in the first case, and now seem to be doing it over and over again because they seem to feel they are getting away with it.

Playtech will do nothing, they don't give a flying **** what their licensees get up to, even confiscating progressive jackpots and stealing them rather than sending them back to the pool doesn't stir Playtech into action. The ONLY thing Playtech would take an interest in is an operator not paying it's license fee.

BY choosing Playtech, and getting a license from Malta, Grand Duke are not effectively regulated, and can get away with quite a bit, and seem to be intent on doing so.

It won't last long though, because they WILL end up in so many rogue pits that they won't be able to repair the damage.

You could see if Max can take on a PAB over this, as this is the evidence gathering stage that determines whether the casino is acting rogue, or the player isn't being entirely honest. Entry to the pit is usually what follows when a succession of PABs demonstrate consistent rogue behaviour from an operator. There is also the option to add a casino into "not recommended" where they are generating a significant number of complaints, and show no interest in addressing the problems or improving matters.


The first Grand Duke incident was where they confiscated a player's winnings WITHOUT a bonus having been used, on the grounds that he played "a mixture of systems" on the Blackjack tables that gave him an edge over the house. Such systems might work in land casinos, but are NEVER going to work when pitted against the RNG and "shuffle after every hand" structure of online blackjack. The incident demonstrated a serious lack of knowledge of the product they were offering their players, quite possibly good reason in itself to have them "not recommended".

[Casinomeister]

How come this sham of a casino is STILL not in the rogue pit?

KK

I've been too busy fixing the colors in the forum and arguing with shemantic and Joefrom

Seriously, these rules are silly. Why even offer a bonus? And these rules about what % of what games you need to play should be totally "in yo' face - click here to agree" since these are pretty odd indeed.

[Vetal]

Thanks everybody!

Here is a thought for Max, or whoever is in charge of the accredited/rogue lists and their inclusion criteria. How about automatically calling a casino rogue (or at least not recommended) if they have additional bonus terms hidden in the general terms? Almost nobody reads those general terms yadda-yadda before playing a bonus. I can see no valid reason of having the additional bonus terms hidden there besides a deliberate attempt to fool the player.

Hope other players will support me. All bonus terms should be in one place.

[Mousey]

Yes, yes, I know. Read forum first, then play in the casino, not play and then write on the forum. I normally follow that rule, but this is a Playtech and I was going to play non-progressive slots only, and my deposit was not very large, so somehow I felt safe.

So I will have to add another Grand Duke story. I deposited 100 dollars, got a 100 dollar bonus, played slots, hit a win on a freespin feature, finished the playthrough, cashed out 750 dollars. Then my cashout was denied, deposit returned to Click2pay and after several emails asking for clarification I got the following:





So apparently they have additional bonus terms hidden in the general terms. I read those. And I found them to be self-contradictory. They first say that the following is not allowed:

Wagering based on one specific slot machine, in order to significantly increase a bankroll, in relevance to the initial betting amount, and then switching to another game

and then they go on by saying


In order to be eligible for withdrawal, you must have winnings from multiple games, in which winnings from any single game cannot exceed 50% of the total amount of the withdrawal request


So after one hits a win he cannot switch to another game. But he has to win a comparable amount in another game. This is impossible. According to those terms no slot player can cash out after redeeming a bonus and winning.

They must be shooting for the most hinky slot T&C award. It would be impossible for anyone to cash out under those terms, would it not?
Totally bizarre....

[vinylweatherman]

I've been too busy fixing the colors in the forum and arguing with shemantic and Joefrom

Seriously, these rules are silly. Why even offer a bonus? And these rules about what % of what games you need to play should be totally "in yo' face - click here to agree" since these are pretty odd indeed.

They are not just "silly", they are virtually impossible to comply with given that the casino seems to interpret them in their favour to target ALL players who just happen to get a lucky big hit on a slot. There is no strategy other than to click spin, so players cannot control the size of a big win, and having had one, cannot then act to obey the term that then requires them to win a similar amount twice more on two different games.