21Grand Casino "Bonus Abuse"

[fahrradfloh]

Brief: 21Grand voided my winnings because I have bet only the minimum wagering required.

I deposited 200€ at 21Grand on 25. August, and took the welcome bonus (500€ non-withdrawable). After finishing the large wagering required one day later, I cashed out 901€. On 9. September I received an e-mail asking me to provide my passport and a utility bill, which I sent them the same day.
Until 20. September I didn't bother to ask as I already had read on CM about the current Rival issues.
However on 20. September after nearly a month I contacted live chat to ask about my withdrawal. The chat was in German, so I cannot post it here, but I will translate the most important parts:

(...)
I: I have requested a payout three weeks ago, and still have not been paid
Nathan: Ok. One moment. Let me check.
I: What's the problem? I have read some worrying news on Casinomeister.
Nathan: I have tried to contact you, but then was on vacation and didn't have time to try it again. Unfortunately, I cannot allow you to withdraw. You have abused the bonus system of our house.
I: Sorry?
Nathan: Unfortunately, we have noticed that you have bet the exactly the minimum amount required. We will void your winnings and, of course, refund your deposit.
I: Listen, you make the rules and I fulfilled them. So I won't accept this.
Nathan: But you have to.
I: On what basis do you do that?
Nathan: Your behaviour is comparable with card-counting in BJ. With which you have exploited the bonus system.
(...)
I: Please respond me. On which paragraph in your terms do you refer?
Nathan: 1.3.2. You acknowledge hereby that the Casino is not obliged to give you prior notice of its decision to refuse, deregister or exclude or suspend you, nor to furnish you with any reasons for such decision.
Nathan: 1.4.1.1. withhold payment to you of any contested funds whether such contested funds are deposits, refunds, bonuses, free monies, casino credits, payouts or the like; and/or
I: That means in plain english: You can do just what you would like to.
Nathan: No, but online casinos are very strict in regards of bonus abuse.
I: Oh, I see. Winning is abusing.
Nathan: No, we like it very much when customers win. But to come into the casino, bet with system and betting exactly to the cent the minimum wagering amount is something we don't like.
(...)
I: If you offer a bonus, there are rules. I have fulfilled them, and I think you should do so, too.
Nathan: Yes, that's right. But nevertheless another point is that one assumes system play in your case.
I: It is not about system or not system it is about that a) I have won and b) I have fulfilled the terms and conditions. Of course I look when I take a bonus, what is the best way to win with it. That's what it's all about when you play in a casino. And this surely is a system.
Nathan: As I said, the decision has been made.
(...)

Well, after the chat, 8 days ago I wrote an email to 21Grand management, but didn't get a response.
Do you think there's still a chance that I will see my winnings? I really feel cheated, as I didn't do anything wrong and I am sure the casino would have just kept my deposit should I have lost. A lose/lose situation for a player.

[ergopro]

IMHO, you should get your winnings.
Labeling you as a bonus abuser after you manage to clear the high wagering requirement is pure roguish.
Try contacting their rep.
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...andcasino.html

[fahrradfloh]

Thank you ergopro, I have contacted their rep now.

[Nate]

Im with ErgoPro,

Rogue Behaviour. Why say that the bonus must be wagered 25x and then remove winnings because it was wagered 25x and not 30x?

I hope the Rep can assist you, If not, contact Max and enquire if you can PAB.

Nate

[Balky]

In the moment the WR is fulfilled the player has the right to cash out regardless if he continued playing or not. If the casino thinks that the player abused the promotion they can ban him AFTER having paid the cashout. Withholding a withdrawal for such reasons is theft.

Balky

[billy_g22]

I'm actually having a similar problem with this casino and Supreme play. Have almost $2000 in total winnings being withheld for claiming too many bonuses.

I've contacted their rep and am waiting on a response before I post more details. Just figured I'd let you know you're not alone.

[Mousey]

This is a 'secret' T&C in Rival's drawer... they pull it out whenever it suits them.

A Rival rep has previously posted in this forum (I can't find it now... I'm at work and I'm not in here LOL shhhh) that they like to see players play another -- I think he said -- 2 - 3% over the WR before withdrawing (we stand a great chance of not cashing out as much that way you see).

This is BULLSHIT... sorry... but there's no other word for it.

If WR is 25X, then it's 25X... if it's 25x + 3%... then SAY so in the T&C! Otherwise, the usual T&C and WR for the player mean NOTHING... except a lie.

Hidden terms trotted out when it suits the casino is rogue.

Pay the player and THEN, if they don't like the way s/he plays, bonus ban him or lock his account or whatever... sheesh... (and people wonder why I don't play online anymore...)

[fahrradfloh]

Thanks all! It feels really good that at least other people think the same way I do. BTW, the bonus came with a 35x wagering on deposit and bonus, so >50xBonus on slots. If this wouldn't be enough...

[Marie2473]

Rhis is just wrong. was the bonus also a sticky one?

[De Beuker]

Yes, these bonuses are non-cashable with 35x D+B rollover (slots and Keno), which makes them heavy EV- already.

It was one thing that they bonusbanned you after cashing out too soon, but now they also confiscate winnings based on that hidden term?!

I agree with the majority, this is rogue behavior and something I would have expected from Virtual group.
Please Rival, how low can you go?