Class 1 Casino don't pay my winning!

[thelawnet]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

Well, they ASSUME that the OP is blasting his way through many casinos with this tactic, and winning overall. THIS seems to justify confiscation of winnings.

Of course it doesn't. If he broke a specific rule, they can confiscate his winnings. The fact is they choose to offer a 300% sticky bonus, which is likely to attract advantage players, and if they don't want those players to play they need to specify what it is that they are and are not allowed to do, rather than simply confiscating their money when they win and keeping it when they lose.

The tactic described by the OP fits the description of "advantage play", but a 12/1 shot is nowhere near as certain as the usual evens double-up bet using the entire bankroll. It does seem that any strategy that succeeds is SUBSEQUENTLY, and "at our discresion" retrospectively deemed "abusive play", and winnings confiscated. The subsequent "grind" was the giveaway though, as a genuine "big hitter" would continue to place chunky sized bets, and perhaps try to "ride" the luck a bit.

However, this tactic is still sufficiently coverable by a specific set of terms and conditions

Exactly, why make excuses for them?

Unfortunately, threats of DDos attacks from the OP have seriously undermined his credibility, and chances of receiving a resolution, HOWEVER, the Meister has not banned him based on this, even though he has admitted he did indeed make such threats.

They were criminally stupid, but it doesn't affect the casinos rogue response to his play. We are here to root out crooked casinos, not players who overreact when they get ripped off by crooked casinos.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by Markus

I have just looked into my statistical records and I have counted 49 Playtech withdrawals since then. In all of them a bonus was involved and none of them were confiscated.

So the "database" threat is BS.

Originally Posted by thelawnet

Of course it doesn't. If he broke a specific rule, they can confiscate his winnings. The fact is they choose to offer a 300% sticky bonus, which is likely to attract advantage players, and if they don't want those players to play they need to specify what it is that they are and are not allowed to do, rather than simply confiscating their money when they win and keeping it when they lose.



Exactly, why make excuses for them?



They were criminally stupid, but it doesn't affect the casinos rogue response to his play. We are here to root out crooked casinos, not players who overreact when they get ripped off by crooked casinos.

Agreed, he broke no rule, and the fact that 49 other Playtech casinos had no problems with his style does tend to show that it was more about C1C objecting to him winning off the bonus, rather than a particular style of play.

He DOES admit to going through 49 Playtech casinos though, so I would think this is a player who plays to WIN, rather than to p1$$ their dollars away by donating more of a big hit than is necessary back to the casino.

Referring to him as an advantage player is not making an escuse for them, as they have no term that specifically excludes advantage players from playing, nor one that specifies what advantage play is (other than "we can make it up as we go along").

[LinkinFart]

First, sorry for longer post but reasoning in this thread is not on the right track from my point of view.

About DDoS attack, You made me laugh with that threat, really. Only thing casinos fear are their license providers and/or government institutions if casino owning company is registered in some developed state.

About not paying Your winnings and all those that say this was not bonus abusing. Here is a quote from T&C of another casino, dont think forum rules allow me to say which one:

"13. Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to, placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.".

I have accounts in 139+ casinos, good portion of them are on Playtech and I never had problem similar to Yours.

This is not the only casino which see this kind of playing tactic with first deposit bonuses or bonuses of any kind as abusive. Maybe person who wrote the T&C of Class 1 casino was too lazy to quote every method of abusive play but obviously other casinos consider this kind of play as illegal if You play with bonus. If You play with your own money no one can say this is foul play or illegal which brings me to an interesting point.

Why did You take that bonus in the first place? If You wanted to get lucky You could do it without the bonus, smaller bets but still it is not the bonus money and you have no wagering to meet before cashing out. Just 2 days ago I had some money left in Moneybookers and decided to play for a while on one slot I like. There was a bonus available but I did not took it and played that slot for maybe 5 minutes and when I saw that slot is not in the good mood I cashed out exactly the same amount. I`m sure casino did not like this at all, because of the fees, but it is allowed. My money, my decision to gamble and there is nothing they can do stop that payment. I could have won a lot and lost entire deposit in those 5 minutes.

I play at Class 1 casino and have never had issues like this and their support representative even STOPPED me from making a deposit and receive a bonus when she realized that T&C changed for my country and I had to do additional wagering on some bonus offer I was going to take.

Thanks for reading and again sorry for long one.

[Jasminebed]

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

First, sorry for longer post but reasoning in this thread is not on the right track from my point of view.

About DDoS attack, You made me laugh with that threat, really. Only thing casinos fear are their license providers and/or government institutions if casino owning company is registered in some developed state.

About not paying Your winnings and all those that say this was not bonus abusing. Here is a quote from T&C of another casino, dont think forum rules allow me to say which one:

"13. Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to, placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.".

I have accounts in 139+ casinos, good portion of them are on Playtech and I never had problem similar to Yours.

This is not the only casino which see this kind of playing tactic with first deposit bonuses or bonuses of any kind as abusive. Maybe person who wrote the T&C of Class 1 casino was too lazy to quote every method of abusive play but obviously other casinos consider this kind of play as illegal if You play with bonus. If You play with your own money no one can say this is foul play or illegal which brings me to an interesting point.

Why did You take that bonus in the first place? If You wanted to get lucky You could do it without the bonus, smaller bets but still it is not the bonus money and you have no wagering to meet before cashing out. Just 2 days ago I had some money left in Moneybookers and decided to play for a while on one slot I like. There was a bonus available but I did not took it and played that slot for maybe 5 minutes and when I saw that slot is not in the good mood I cashed out exactly the same amount. I`m sure casino did not like this at all, because of the fees, but it is allowed. My money, my decision to gamble and there is nothing they can do stop that payment. I could have won a lot and lost entire deposit in those 5 minutes.

I play at Class 1 casino and have never had issues like this and their support representative even STOPPED me from making a deposit and receive a bonus when she realized that T&C changed for my country and I had to do additional wagering on some bonus offer I was going to take.

Thanks for reading and again sorry for long one.

Well, this thread is a little out of date, but I do feel you have the wrong handle on part of your reasoning.

What Terms and Conditions apply at ANOTHER casino have NO bearing on the terms and conditions on the OP's contractual relationship with Class 1 Casino. If a casino is "too lazy" to write terms and conditions that clearly define play that is disallowed, that is their problem, and they are obligated to pay players that did not contravene their stipulations. A casino may change their terms and conditions for future players if a situation of advantage play presents them with problems.

[Markus]

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

About not paying Your winnings and all those that say this was not bonus abusing. Here is a quote from T&C of another casino, dont think forum rules allow me to say which one:

"13. Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to, placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.".

1. Even if such a rule had existed at Class 1 Casino I would not have broken it because I have only bet 1/3 of my total available balance and not the majority.
2. I have no problem with such a rule, I know some MGs who have it. In this case I play a low house edge game like Classic Blackjack and always bet 1/4 of my bankroll until I hit my target or bust. I still have a good advantage therefore such a rule doesn't really help the casino.

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

I have accounts in 139+ casinos, good portion of them are on Playtech and I never had problem similar to Yours.

I have also a lot of casino accounts and Class 1 Casino was the only casino who have confiscated my winnings because of my play style.

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

This is not the only casino which see this kind of playing tactic with first deposit bonuses or bonuses of any kind as abusive.

Sure, but those who do not define in their T&C what tactics are abusive but confiscate winnings anyway are rightly called rogue casinos.

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

Why did You take that bonus in the first place?

Because I like to have an advantage. If you play only for fun thats fine, but don't force your attitude on me.

[LinkinFart]

I posted that rule from another casino just to show that this kind of play with bonus money is deemed abusive, read that rule entirely it is not about single bet but significant portion of the balance, 1/3 is signigicant portion. Class 1 have this covered in their T&C but not in such explicit form:

"Class 1 Casino reserves the right to cancel withdrawal requests and withhold winnings made by playing strategies that Class 1 Casino in its sole discretion deems abusive. Furthermore, accounts of players participating in abusive strategies will be terminated upon recognition.".

When I said lazy, I meant to say that person writing T&C didnt think ahead and wrote every single method instead of just putting down generalized version referring to same problem.

I did not force any attitude on You. It is a fact that if You played like that with your money without a bonus, winnings would be yours. If You dont like that fact thats your problem not mine.

Look at the rogue section and read what other casinos have done to get into rogue pit.

It is little outdated but found a link to this forum thread elsewhere and just felt a need to put down my 2. I guess DDoS attack approach failed so its forum posting time now for OP.

EDIT: Next time when You know something is forbidden in other casinos and there is a possibility that it falls under some generalized rule it might be a good idea to email support before you take some offer and play. It will save you time and money. I do that and dont have problems like you do.

[Markus]

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

I posted that rule from another casino just to show that this kind of play with bonus money is deemed abusive, read that rule entirely it is not about single bet but significant portion of the balance, 1/3 is signigicant portion.

Obviously you haven't read that rule entirely.
It says, winnings may be voided if
1. Single Bet > Total balance / 2
AND
2. Bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance
No. 2 is always true if using a 300% bonus, therefore only No. 1 is relevant.

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

Class 1 have this covered in their T&C but not in such explicit form: "Class 1 Casino reserves the right to cancel withdrawal requests and withhold winnings made by playing strategies that Class 1 Casino in its sole discretion deems abusive. Furthermore, accounts of players participating in abusive strategies will be terminated upon recognition.".

How can you say this rule is a less explicit form of the rule from the other casino? I don't see the connection. All I see is a rule saying "We can do whatever we want and our decision is final.". Every strategy can be interpreted in "Class 1 Casino's sole discretion" as abusive. Even minor stakes slots playing.

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

Look at the rogue section and read what other casinos have done to get into rogue pit.

There are casinos in the rogue section for the reason that they have confiscated winnings from advantage players.

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

It is a fact that if You played like that with your money without a bonus, winnings would be yours. If You dont like that fact thats your problem not mine.

I wouldn't do that for sure. I don't like high variance and if I don't need it to improve my player edge I try to avoid it wherever it is possible.

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

so its forum posting time now for OP

What are you talking about? I have only posted my problem 10 months ago in the Casinomeister forum and nowhere else. (Edit: Sorry, I forgot kasinoforum.com also 10 months ago, but nowhere else)

Originally Posted by LinkinFart

Next time when You know something is forbidden in other casinos and there is a possibility that it falls under some generalized rule it might be a good idea to email support before you take some offer and play. It will save you time and money. I do that and dont have problems like you do.

It is not my job to validate the Casino's T&C. I expect that the T&C are accurate.
I have a better time and money saving tip: Avoid rogue casinos like Class 1 Casino at all costs.

[vinylweatherman]

Thinking has moved on since this came up. Even words like "significant" are still too flexible, now, a well written term has to be specific, perhaps taking the form "no bet greater than xx% of your starting balance may be wagered......."

The casino rep also managed to shoot themselves in the foot (I didn't spot it before). They said that the bet was "within the limits they had set". So the casino had specifically set a maximum allowable bet within the software, so surely this limit itself becomes a "term and condition", and if the player is able to select and bet $xxx, then the implication is that the terms allow it.

While it was not helpful to threaten the DDos attack, the casino THEMSELVES resorts to the same kind of tactic with that total BULLSHIT term that THREATENS the player with having their information handed over to Playtech for their "bonus abuser database" (which only exists in magic fairy land it seems), which will ENSURE the player will never see another Playtech bonus again.

If C1C didn't want players betting $100 on Penalty Shootout, they shouldn't have SET the limit as high as $100.

When we have the abundant SPAM for these bonuses, the casino could be accused of running an unfair "honeytrap" scheme, where players are lured in by offers they cannot miss (unless they don't use email), and the casino can ENSURE they make a profit by weeding out enough winners to balance the books. Subjective terms are great for this, they can move the definitions around depending on how good their "hold" has been that month.

I consider nearly ALL Playtech casinos rogue. Since this incident, we have seen two MAJOR incidents, BOTH involving Playtech casinos, BOTH who received a progressive payout IN FULL from Playtech, and in BOTH cases some of the money "fell off the shovel" in transit to the player. This kind of thing goes beyond rogue, it is worthy of a criminal investigation since the money has ended up in the pockets of people who were not entitled to it.

NO "regulator" has stepped in to slap down the two casinos involved (one escaped by being sold on, but leaving it's liabilities behind), Playtech seem to have washed their hands of the whole thing, and this makes me feel that Playtech casinos are pretty dangerous places to play. Only the limited number of accredited Playtech casinos can be trusted, but I still can't bring myself to play at one of them.

C1C should define what they consider to be too large a wager, it is NOT "rocket science" to come up with a specific percentage, leaving the player knowing EXACTLY what bets are permitted, and which are not.

[Kevin@Class1]

Hey everyone, my name is Kevin and I am a representative of Class 1 Casino.

As vinylweatherman stated, the thinking has moved on a lot in the past year or so. Competitive casinos are paying more attention to the players' feedback and vague, undefined terms of use are one of the things that are slowly becoming a thing of the past.

We are trying hard to prove our honesty and fair intentions from the beginning of our operation and we are also trying to be up-to-date with the happening in the industry. Especially in the last half year we really opened our ears to players and affiliates and getting feedback on what could or should be improved.

One of the cases that were discussed a great deal by our casino management was also the "unclear terms" matter. We still insist on the fact that we didn't do anything wrong in Markus' case, however, we do acknowledge that we did a mistake by making our terms of use too vague and non-descriptive and by this caused some unnecessary anger which should be avoided in the first place.

Our gaming team has been working in the past month on a T&C update package. We were preparing the update for the middle of August, combined with the presentation of new casino games, but due to the Casinomeister's recent "Rogue-ization" of Class 1 Casino (without any prior notice), we decided to step in and publish the package immediately.

Now the term:
"Class 1 Casino reserves the right to cancel withdrawal requests and withhold winnings made by playing strategies that Class 1 Casino in its sole discretion deems abusive,"

has been replaced by:
"Class 1 Casino reserves the right to cancel withdrawal requests and withhold winnings in cases of bonus-abusive play, which is defined as:
• Player is creating multiple Real Money accounts with similar or different account information (also known as duplicate accounts) in order to receive several First Deposit Bonuses.
• Player makes a first deposit and is placing bets higher than 50% of his first deposit amount."

By stating only the particular cases of abuse we unfortunately open ourselves to the abusers that will always try new methods and will be one step ahead, but we are willing to take this risk in order to show that we are not hard-headed fools who look away from the community and that we will always try to look from the players' side too.

This is just a first step towards making the terms of use more clear and we will be paying full attention to all additional comments regarding this matter or our casino in general.

I am looking forward to your comments.

[maxd]

Hello Kevin,

Max Drayman writing, I'm the Player Grievance Manager at Casinomeister.com which means that I handle the Pitch-A-Bitch section and help Bryan moderate the Complaints forums.

I don't know if you are aware but Class1Casino is currently on our blacklist: see the Rogue Pit, or look here "Maxima Casino - renamed Class1casino...".

If C1C is in the process of overhauling it's approach to player issues that's great! A demonstrable change in tactics and procedures would be most welcome.

Secondly, if you are to be the official representative for C1C you should let Bryan know. We have a I-Gaming Forum Reps page that you could be listed on if you contact him (send a Private Message via Casinomeister).

Regards,
Max.