Roguish PKR revoking bonus for no reason.

[topoor]

Max, the reason I made my comment regarding if I had known about PKR, I wouldnt have deposited etc was meant to highlight the need for quick action. I might well be the first complainant but I am not the only one and if PKR/Alderney are highlighted as having issues now then others wont get bitten.

Does it really have to get to the point were a multitude of players are defrauded before action is taken?

I havent forgotten that you disagree with the PKR stance but I dont see the need for a comment such as "give them the benefit of the doubt". It suggesed to me that you agree they have done wrong but only to me so lets see who else they rip off.

If however I have misinterpreted your comments and you fully intend to rogue them if they fail to meet the standards and expectations of the PAB process then I apologise. I have not been through this before and have no experience of anything similar.

[maxd]

Originally Posted by topoor

... Does it really have to get to the point were a multitude of players are defrauded before action is taken? ... Its suggests to me that you agree they have done wrong but only to me so lets see who else they rip off.

Again, I must take exception with your (unfounded) assumptions. The way the PABs normally work is that I give the casino several chances over the course of a few weeks to do the right thing in regards to a specific case. That's one case, such as your own, not multiple cases.

If at the end of that process they are still in breach of our basic expectations for casino conduct then I issue a Warning and begin the Rogue process on them.

So no, haste is not part of this process, simply because it can't be and maintain the success ratio that we try to achieve. The goal of the PAB process is to get cases successfully resolved wherever possible -- that usually means getting players paid what they are owed-- not to issue as many Warnings and Rogue listings as possible.

[topoor]

I have edited my post and returned to read yours so there may be some crossover. I felt you might have taken it as you did which is why I edited it.

I think we are on the same page now I understand the process and your outlook. Im sorry for any confusion and would appreciate if we could move forward.

[maxd]

Originally Posted by topoor

... would appreciate if we could move forward.

On that we most certainly do agree.

[Kodi]

hey topoor, maxd and others

what are the possibilites of sue PKR Casino?

Im mean, how much would it costs? and is this possible? what court are correct to sent diligence?

[topoor]

Due to the sums involved I am considering the small claims court. With the small claims court costs are not recoverable so if I lost I lose nothing other than the filing fee.

Obviously I will await the PAB.

[vinylweatherman]

Since Alderney showed that "bonus abuse" took place with the initial sign-up bonus, PKR should never have lured the player back in with an even larger offer. They should have locked the account straight after the initial bonus was "abused". PKR offered the reload when it was already the case that the player had "abused" the bonus, and would probably do the same again with the second one. This is simply a case of bait and switch.

Now we know where Alderney stand with regard to "bonus abuse", players are not allowed to play best strategy to win as much as possible, but must go beyond the terms and conditions by an unspecified amount.

The Moneybookers incident seems rather too much of a co-incidence, and topoor did say that a member of their staff let slip that PKR was the complainant. Since Alderney have not found that fraud was involved, PKR have breached the data protection act by issuing a "fraud report" to Moneybookers for what is simply "advantage play". A complaint should be made direct to the information commissioner now that you have a statement from Alderney as to exactly what took place. The Data Protection act only allows the passing of data in the case of fraud or suspected money laundering. If it was only PKR that was transacted with using the Moneybookers account, there can only be one merchant that complained.

I cannot see how Moneybookers can justify closing accounts simply because their customer is an "advantage player".

There would be no point in sueing PKR over the second bonus, the main problem is the information passed to Moneybookers.

There are other Ewallets available, but don't forget that Playtech have a central database of "bonus abusers", which means topoor should not play at any other Playtech casinos, otherwise either the bonus will not be credited, or another attempt will be made to confiscate winnings.

The small claims court would at least limit the amount payable to take action, even if it failed.

[Fleur-De-Lis]

Facts-less, over-emotional post to follow

Well... I do not play in PKR, and it may be none of my business, but I am truly appalled by the so-far outcome of the case. It is understandable that when casino's reps offer you bonuses and sweet-talk you into depositing they want you to lose (otherwise, how they'd pay their bills? ), however decent enterprises somehow manage to handle the situations when player actually wins, not loses.
Not a bonus person till recently, I took up two signup bonus offers just last week, met WR and won nice money in both cases, and were paid in few hours (kudos to Intercasino and Canbet )

At the same time, it appears as if roguish and unscrupulous operators of PKR kind simply cannot accept the fact that their tight 'player-unfriendly' bonus terms can be beaten in an honest way and a player can end up winning... Apparently, PKR were clearly disgusted when OP managed to meet WR, win and cashout the first time around. Looks like they could not live with that, so they tried a second-chance offer, in hope she would fail this time... and the fact that she did not lose her money *again* drove them mad... so they screamed murder

Dear topoor... please accept sincere thanks for bringing this matter up and making us players here aware of this shame of a casino. I am so sorry for all the trouble and unpleasantness you had to go through. I do hope your next choice of a casino will be a better one, and you would have lots of fun, great wins and positive-only experience. Take care.
Fleur

[chuchu59]

Originally Posted by topoor

Alderney has sided with PKR. These are the reasons.

You made two large deposits, $200 and $500. The first depost of $200 is the maximum eligible amount for a first time deposit bonus. The second deposit is again the maximum eligible amount for reload bonus.

As soon as the bonuses were cleared you requested a withdrawal, each time within five minutes of clearing the specific bonus.

You did not engage in any play between the first withdrawal and the second deposit when the reload bonus became available.

The only game you played was casino hold em.

The vast majority of the bets you made were the minimum $1. This is quite a small bet amount when compared to the amounts that you deposited. Only the basic main bet was played, never the side bet (AA bet).

The total amount you bet on the account was $20,002.00, this reflects the $10,000 bet to claim the first deposit bonus and then a second $10,000 to claim the reload bonus. It is clear that as soon as the bonus was released no more games were played.

Play only occured while a bonus was pending.


So there you have it, if a casino invites you to an offer and you take them up on it, follow the terms to the letter and dont breach any rule or law the casino is allowed to deny you the bonus. This is the finding of the Alderney Gambling Commission.

I found this comment particularly laughable:

PKR are more than within their rights to close your account and seize all funds.

So according to Alderney if I break no rules or laws and deposit to a casino they have the right to steal my money should they wish.

Absolute joke. What on earth does this say about the gambling industry?

I am appalled by the reasons given by Alderney for siding with Pkr. If a bonus is awarded and you did not break any of the Ts and Cs whilst playing, they cannot retroactively claim bonus abuse. Certainly, they dont like it and if I were them I will never give you any bonuses again. The result was clear from the outset. If Alderney was only having a look at the play logs to determine whether this was in fact how Topoor was playing, then the result is just like our slot games ie pre-determined once you hit the spin button.

In my view, the stance taken by Alderney only encourages casinos to confiscate winnings. I hope that it can review the whole issue and come up with more solid reasons for its decision - either way. Otherwise, this regulating body will have doubtful integrity and clout.

[jetset]

This (the AGCC decision) is absolute nonsense, and takes us back to the dark days when players were so frequently and unfairly screwed by the use of this iniquitous "bonus abuse" allegation, often allied to the notorious FU clause in which management reserves the right to do pretty much what it wants to.

I can't understand why PKR and the AGCC are seemingly incapable of grasping the contractual fundamentals here:

If a casino designs and offers a T&C for a promo and offers it to a player, and that player accepts this and plays within those T&Cs, then the casino has an obligation to pay the player what it has promised in terms of the T&Cs.

Everything turns on compliance with the T&Cs, which should not be corrupted by unfair and non-specific FU clauses or anything else, other than player dishonesty such as fraudulent ID, multiple accounts etc.

Should the casino operator then decide that the player is undesirable, he can bar him from future promos or even from the website entirely....BUT FIRST HE PAYS THE PLAYER WHAT WAS PROMISED IN THE T&Cs.