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Thread: A perfect rigged slot - this is how you make it!

  1. #1
    kimss is offline Dormant account
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    A perfect rigged slot - this is how you make it!

    To make my words a little easier to understand, let me write a logical example. This could be programming in any language, however I hope you have a basic understanding on how programming works - and this example would only be the low-end logic oversight.

    Proove my logic wrong - how would you detect that this system was rigged?

    Basic assumption of a slot:

    PHP Code:
    function slot(){
      
    get_numbers();
      
    compute_spin();
      
    update_balance();
      
    update_graphics_with_numbers();
    }

    function 
    get_numbers(){
      
    // Return random numbers
    }
    function 
    compute_spin(){
      
    // Calculate if the spin is a win or not
    }
    function 
    update_balance(){
      
    // new bank balance
    }
    function 
    update_graphics_with_numbers(){
      
    // Updates the GUI, what we persieve as the game infront of us.

    Also - note that the get_numbers(); function is most likely proprietary, and inside a company like MG this function
    is most likely only known by a few. We will never know the story here, we will only know the outcome...

    However we already know that all your history is stored by the playcheck data. If you ever asked CS for a dumpt of your data
    you will see thay have a nice overview on lots of % payouts, deposits, manager bonus +++ at their disposal. So infact - the
    system already have all the calculated stuff freely available at their need, so It is fairly easy to tweak the system
    and still it is impossible to detect the rigged system.

    Let's assume we tweak the get_numbers() to something like this:

    PHP Code:
    function get_numbers(){
      
    //This function is really extended by the really_get_numers()
      // Remember this function is proprietary, so nobody knows what is happening
      // here. It might aswell be something as this.
      // New logic in place is:
      
    var userstate compute_play_mode(); // Three states: default, loser and winner
      
    if(userstate == winner)
        var 
    maxwin compute_winner_max_win();

      if(
    userstate==default)
        return 
    really_get_numers();
        
      var 
    rnd really_get_numers();
      var 
    win calculate_winX_compared_to_bet_size();

      if(
    userstate==winner AND win >= maxwin){
        return 
    really_get_numers();    
      } else if(
    userstate==loser  AND !win){
        return 
    really_get_numers(); 
      } else {
        return 
    rnd;
      }
    }
    function 
    compute_play_mode(){
      
    // Poll earlier playing data and descide if we have a winner or a loser
      // at the moment. This would be a complicated part of the system with
      // alot of weighted triggers depending on this and that. However the
      // general idea is here.
    }
    function 
    compute_winner_max_win(){
      
    // Calculate, depending on previous function what wins we will ignore if
      // they would occure.
    }

    function 
    really_get_numers(){
      
    // Return random numbers

    This would be perfect for audit, peferct for all since all numbers are 100% random in the players end.
    However you clearly see that the system is rigged, and the casino assures steady players getting more luck when
    losing and harder time when winning! In the end a quicker way to meet expected 95%.

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  3. #2
    KasinoKing's Avatar
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    I think everyone understands that it would be incredibly easy for software companies to incorporate this type of rigging into their codes and be totally undetectable to anyone playing the games.


    Speaking of rigging; I spotted something VERY worrying last night when I played MGs new Wealth Spa slot;
    Previously most here accepted that MG bonus slots produce totally random spins - both in normal play, and in free-spin mode. But this one actually states that this is not the case.
    So is it a slot, or is it an AWP?
    I can't see anywhere where is says it is an AWP...

    Wealth1.JPG
    Wealth2.JPG

    By the way, for anyone thinking of trying this slot, it took me 543 spins, £222.20 in wagers & nearly £70 down to get this bonus. It gave me 16 free-spins which returned £97.20 on a £1 spin.
    Oh, and it's possibly the most BORING slot MG have ever made!

    KK
    Smile, it may never happen...
    KasinoKing's News < Rival release their first ever 50-line slot.
    SIX new softwares to try ~ Reel Layouts and Jackpot Odds ~ New USA Friendly Casinos!

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  5. #3
    kimss is offline Dormant account
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    Quote Originally Posted by KasinoKing View Post
    Speaking of rigging; I spotted something VERY worrying last night when I played MGs new Wealth Spa slot;
    Previously most here accepted that MG bonus slots produce totally random spins - both in normal play, and in free-spin mode. But this one actually states that this is not the case.
    Derailing in first reply... Typical!

    Anyway, this slot obviously take advantage of excactly what I am assuming above! When and where the coins appear are abviously connected to your previous play. Just like picking all the first coins at $0.01 and getting the freeplay at max lines... Go figure! I am not even referring to the possible outcome, but the accual outcome from the spins at winning combinations from a "cheap bonus" compared to an "expensive" bonus.

    I have my own statistical graphed outcome from quite a few runs on this machine, just as with tomb raider. It's weighted all the way to the bank. I wonder why you are even confused to be honest. (It's no news either, the MG system itself have weighting already in place on several slots, so why not take advantage of the existing system...)

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    I'm not a slots player on a regular basis, but I've tried some in the past. It would be safe to say that with programming everything is possible, no secret there.

    From what I've played, the inconsistency that I could see was between betsize. I'm not surprised or anything by rigged slots, they did that with the real slot machines too right? Paying out whenever the balance was at a certain positive amount.

    Anyway I'm no genius on this subject, but I'm sure its controled in some way or another.

  7. #5
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    KimSS,

    With all due respect, but what you suggest in your post would be detected by even the most naive test, and there is no way on earth that it would pass the die-hard tests (by Marsaglia), that are industry standard today for randomness testing.

    In fact the algorithm you suggest would fail nearly _every_ test in the die-hard test battery. And if I'd have to think of a specific test to disprove randomness in the scenario I think you suggest it would be to plot out the distribution of the distance between wins of a certain size - which should be normally distributed with characteristic mean and sigma. (and it most certainly wont.)

    Furthermore, to pass any type of certification, it are exactly the pieces of code that draw the random numbers _AND_ their calls from the game logic that are being certified and fingerprinted. No self respecting auditing company would certify any RNG without reviewing exactly those parts.



    KK,

    If I'm not mistaking, this concept was introduced by MG before - don't remember which slot, maybe it was TR2? Either way, since this feature will actually be triggered over multiple spins, it is an obvious solution to players stacking up 'triggers' on lowest stake and switching to higher stakes when they have only one trigger left to go. I would assume it takes the average bet of the actual spins that get you the triggers, not all spins inbetween, and rewards freespins based on that. Since it were in fact e.g. 5 bets that started that feature, it seems like a fair solution to me to say you get free spins at (total bet over those 5 triggering spins)/5.

    Cheers,

    Enzo
    3Dice - alea iacta est.

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  9. #6
    thelawnet is offline Knave of Hearts
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimss View Post
    To make my words a little easier to understand, let me write a logical example. This could be programming in any language, however I hope you have a basic understanding on how programming works - and this example would only be the low-end logic oversight.

    This would be perfect for audit, peferct for all since all numbers are 100% random in the players end.
    However you clearly see that the system is rigged, and the casino assures steady players getting more luck when
    losing and harder time when winning! In the end a quicker way to meet expected 95%.

    So basically what you are saying is that when the player is losing, the machine will toss them some wins, and when they are winning, the machine will win it back?

    What's the point?

    The casino doesn't want to meet expected 95%. Why would it? Some players will win $50,000, great, they flash it up next time you login 'XY from Z-Town won $50,000 playing MegaSlot - why not try your luck'?

    Over an extended period of time the casino will achieve an actual % win that's more and more likely to be very close to the theoretical win. There will be a little noise and random variation along the way of course, but it's nothing to worry about.

  10. #7
    kimss is offline Dormant account
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    @Enzo

    Lovely to see an answer by someone in the business! Thanks for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Dice View Post
    I would assume it takes the average bet of the actual spins that get you the triggers, not all spins inbetween, and rewards freespins based on that. Since it were in fact e.g. 5 bets that started that feature, it seems like a fair solution to me to say you get free spins at (total bet over those 5 triggering spins)/5.
    I bet you do. While this sounds like a grest explernation and a logical one to, acctual gameplay contradicts it. What you are saying is that getting the 5 triggers on a $0.60 bet would normally be a good win, atleast could be. I would say that usually if you lose a lot inbetween you complete the feature! If you manage to get tham luckily fast (ctalking about the triggers not the spins in between) you get LOSE in first two ones! If you keep playing this slot, and keep track of notes (or even my sweet graphs) you cant help feeling you always get beat on the finnish line... Sopme magical unluck, always in favour of the computer.

    Regarding your comments on my quick system, are you saying that when Marsaglia are doing tests they are infact reviewing the RNG engine? Do they get access to the accuall code? Are 3Dice code reviewed?

    My above example is failry an easy example, you could easy add skewing of luck - and you could also add it only sometimes - randomly. Are you telling me that this is impossible to do, it sounds very easy to me to fool a die hard test with some fuzzy logic accompanied with some random triggers.

    To be honest, I am sure I can fool this test myself, die hard or not! I am sure I can produce a million spins for you and you will not be able to tell me that this is rigged, however I will be able to skew the end result being either lucky or unlucky! Cause that is the problem here, it is possible to be lucky and unlucky within the realm of random.

  11. #8
    kimss is offline Dormant account
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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawnet View Post
    So basically what you are saying is that when the player is losing, the machine will toss them some wins, and when they are winning, the machine will win it back?
    Not quite...

    The system doesnt toss wins really, the system could forget that spin and give you another try without you knowing - thus doubling your chance of infact getting a win, that doesnt mean you get one. A lucky streak. It's still 100% random ironically.

    (The system checks if you win, and if you didnt discard the result and give you a new random spin instead. If you win or not is beside the point at this stage, the system has just randomly doubled your chance of winning).

    Surely there cannot be a pattern on how this is applied, but this is only dynamics really, how you apply your code and is beside the point and when it triggers and with what weight it triggers. The point is it is extremely easy to throw some luck at the player, or on the other hand - take away some luck.

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    Setsuna is offline Experienced Member
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    About Wealth Spa - the "average bet" during free spins is there to prevent abuse by getting the first four coins at minimal bet then the fifth one at a more higher bet - like Tomb Raider II and the five passports to collect - quite fair to make this , i'd say. (It seems that the "average bet" is (sum of ALL bets placed from first spin to last coin earned)/(number of spins) )

    For the second mine , it's there to avoid the case of a disappointing zilch win after collecting all the five coins (quite an upgrade from TR II) that would be very likely to make the player angry and leaving the casino.

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    thelawnet is offline Knave of Hearts
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Dice View Post
    KimSS,

    With all due respect, but what you suggest in your post would be detected by even the most naive test, and there is no way on earth that it would pass the die-hard tests (by Marsaglia), that are industry standard today for randomness testing.

    In fact the algorithm you suggest would fail nearly _every_ test in the die-hard test battery. And if I'd have to think of a specific test to disprove randomness in the scenario I think you suggest it would be to plot out the distribution of the distance between wins of a certain size - which should be normally distributed with characteristic mean and sigma. (and it most certainly wont.)

    Furthermore, to pass any type of certification, it are exactly the pieces of code that draw the random numbers _AND_ their calls from the game logic that are being certified and fingerprinted. No self respecting auditing company would certify any RNG without reviewing exactly those parts.
    Hmm, I've never seen any credible claims by a casino that their code is sufficently well audited to guarantee against cheating. Not that I'm alleging that they are cheating, just that I don't think the 'we are random' audits prove much.

    I had a look at your site, and it doesn't say much

    "How can I be sure the games are fair?
    All software has met strict criteria to guarantee fairness for our users."

    'Strict criteria' is a completely empty claim that means nothing.

    Intercasino makes more specific claims, which are among the most specific I've seen:

    http://www.intercasino.com/help/faq/fairness.shtml


    "2.How can you prove that the numbers generated on InterCasino are completely random?

    A random number generator is used to determine the outcome of all our games.

    The algorithms in the random number generator have been proved to conform to results of similar games found in Atlantic City (with respect to randomness and payout frequency), in line with our license requirements.

    In some games the rules differ slightly from the Atlantic City rules. For example, in some card games, the deck is shuffled after every hand. Any exceptions from Atlantic City rules and regulations are noted in the game rules section of the website.

    A typical test of the current version of the random number generator involves a sequence of 300,000,000 (three hundred million) numbers.

    The random number generator is tested on an ongoing basis to ensure its continued fairness.

    A typical test of each game involves a sample size of between 1,000,000 (one million) and 10,000,000 (ten million) bets. If the frequency of winning combinations and general payouts are within expectations, the game is passed to a Quality Assurance team of engineers who play the game (with the real gaming server) until they are sure that the game is flawless.

    Based on these tests, the algorithm for each game has been found to be fair.

    The software has also been independently tested and certified by an international gaming-testing house to ensure it is fair and completely random.
    "

    Exactly what the international gaming-testing house has tested isn't made clear, but I'm assuming it's the RNG only.

    A later statement appears to confirm that:

    "Each game at InterCasino undergoes extensive testing. First, we imitate all possible situations and determine whether the rules are obeyed, payouts are properly paid, etc.

    The random number generator is then added and tests are run with automated agents. For games which involve strategy (blackjack, poker, etc.), the optimal strategy is implemented, and for games of chance (red dog, baccarat etc.) a random bet choice is implemented. Depending on the game, between 1 and 10 million bets are run.

    If the frequency of winning combinations and general payouts are within expectations, the game is passed to a Quality Assurance team of engineers who play that game to insure its flawless play.
    "
    In other words, while the RNG is assured to be fair, the game testing is strictly in-house; similarly, I seriously do not believe that Microgaming send each of the slots they spew out each month off to be externally audited before release.

    And the payout audit would not appear to be much of a guarantee either:

    "10.Are InterCasino payouts reviewed by a third party?

    Yes. With one of the world's leading global accountancy firms, provides a monthly review of InterCasino's payout percentage. They examine the data log files for each month and certify the average payout percentage by game.
    "

    They are certifying payout percentage. Not really rocket science. Intercasino's bj is paying out 98% - is that through bad player strategy or because the casino is cheating (e.g., through a subtle weighting on certain cards, which could be done, despite having a certified RNG)? I'm sure it's just bad strategy, but a simple payout audit does nothing to prove or disprove it - you would need to conduct analysis of card distributions, including analysing different bet sizes, and many other things, and as Intercasino are not claiming that their auditors are doing that, it is very unlikely that they are.

    The reality is that if a casino wants to cheat, no third-party company can stop them. Logs can be falsified, code can be switched.

    The only true way to catch cheating is logging your own results with real money.

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