Bonus Abuser Blacklist (Microgaming)

[spearmaster]

Are Microgaming themselves aware that this goes on? If not, they should be. As Max says, use it to prevent a bonus being awarded, but if it has been and the play is fair then tough. The player should be paid. If a casino chooses to entice with a bonus, they should be prepared for the problems this causes. It's not like it's an unknown quantity - everyone knows that bonuses are asking for trouble unless properly managed. You can't have your cake and eat it.

FWIW, the correct avenue of challenge should be to eCOGRA, which is supposed to be providing player protection to its accredited members. MGS is really only a software provider and surely would refer you back to eCOGRA anyhow in this type of situation, since it's not the software at fault.

[Mousey]

I'm still wondering about the 'central' database. Who has it? A payment processor? It's got to be higher in the 'food chain' than that doesn't it? I mean we see processors come and go (some arrested , etc.) so it's got to be something closer to the casinos. Proc Cybr? But not all MGs use them, do they?

And why would this financial overlord want/need/bother with info as to 'bonus abusers' (which is related to style of play)? Fraud, is one thing... multiple accounts, deposit then charge back, sign up elsewhere with a fake name, etc. I understand casinos need to have some centralized source of info there.

But a bonus abuse blacklist? Was the blacklist originally set up for casinos to contribute and track names of those committing fraud, but then some (the casinos) began to add bonus 'abusers', too, since some casinos seem to think one is as bad as the other? Are both on the same list? Separate lists? Does a bonus abuse blacklist even exist? We're all well aware that just because a casino says something or plasters something on their website in their T&C doesn't mean it's true.*

Will we ever know the truth of it? And does anyone, other than us, even care (MG, ECogra, etc.) ?

********

*I forget the casinos that always said in their promo terms that the average player managed 40x wagers on their deposit, implying that 30x -- or whatever-- WR was really very cool and most players would win. Yeah right. VPL? CR? Can't remember....

[uungy]

Any casino who actually uses and implements this term and use it for a reason not to pay, should be thrown into the large blackhole of roguedem!

Instead of restructuring themselves and rewarding players for their play etc, after getting a good beat by a player, they just bar them.

Virgin Casino did this a while back, and did a U turn on it, realising, by blocking players who believe they are "winners" they will never get their money back.

Dont casinos realise, you win some and lose alot? I may win a few hundred here, but then will go on later to lose that multiplied elsewhere if I am barred.

It just seems alot of these casino managers, have no idea what a B&M casino is, and have no idea what online casino consists of. Instead of rewarding winners, to entice them back, they bar them!

Throw 'em in the blackhole!

[LuckyPlayer]

I fully agree with your statement: Any casino who actually uses and implements this term and use it for a reason not to pay, should be thrown into the large blackhole of roguedem!

so their privacy policy is BS, if they are sharing their database.

they keep changing their main promotion terms, they stopped my friend's cashout because you need to be a VIP to request a cashout! Never seen that anywhere. they sent him a $2,400 spam offer with no terms and their customer service if you are lucky to get through have no understanding or experience in gambling at all. Be aware and avoid!

[funky_seagull]

It would be good to know whom you are quoting here. What casinos did you find are using these terms?
(I know I could hunt around to find it myself but ... there are other PABs to worry about and there's only so much time in a day.)

Sorry wasn't sure if it was ok to post their names on the forum.

Will P.M info to you.

[funky_seagull]

But I wouldn't jump to conclusions quite yet.

I know that Proc Cyber runs players through a fraudster database. The database is not shared with the casino - only if a player pops up in the fraudster database will he be outed by Pro Cyber which notifies the casino. I remember a couple of incidents where fraudsters had been cleared by the casino for payouts, but got nailed by the cash processors - one was a Bellerock issue a couple of years ago that played out in the complaints section.

I seriously doubt that the casinos share a database of "bonus abusers". I have a feeling it's smoke being blown up the "abusers" butt in order to scare him off - or to confiscate winnings.

I'm guessing this will play out here as well.

Bear in mind, I don't believe this casino is an eCOGRA certified casino. So they aren't part of this equation.

An accredited casino which I won't name here, but have pm'd to Maxd states in their terms:

# We contribute to and make use of a shared industry database of promotion abusers and fraudsters. Individuals known from this database will not be eligible for any promotional offers and the casino reserves the right to lock their account and refuse access to the casino.
# Information on known promotion abusers may be forwarded to Proc-Cyber Services (PCS) and Borth Holdings Ltd, our e-cash partners and may result in such player being barred from receiving bonuses at any other casino using PCS

[vinylweatherman]

Sorry, but again you have made a generalization without any basis in fact.

While I appreciate your participation and your eagerness to be of assistance, I do find these unwarranted accusations very disturbing.

Hence, please be advised that any future accusations, implications, or insinuations of this sort will no longer be tolerated - will be deleted - and may result in a vacation.

Thanks for your attention.

I said "very likely".

Firsly, Playtech, the company do not seem to do anything about the large number of what would be considered as "rogue" casinos that run using the Playtech software. Micrgaming, the "gold standard" have long called allegations of this level of central information sharing as "a conspiracy theory". "conspiracy theory" juat became FACT when GLC told Max that a confiscation was solely down to a "bonus abuser" flag on a FRAUD database.

The Playtech position is still that the whole thing is a conspiracy theory, however this must have started somewhere, and if Playtech started to make better efforts to police it's licensees, showing zero tolerance of rogue behaviour, then players will be more likely to believe Playtech when they say something.

Given the rate this entire industry is flushing it's reputation down the toilet, none of this probably matters very much.

Sadly, it is hard to prove a negative, which is the big problem, Playtech cannot prove it has not got a "central whatever", so it is up to it's attackers to prove it has something that was earlier denied.

Strangely, CASINOS are ROUTINELY requiring us players to "prove a negative", so they should be prepared to be held to the same standards when THEY find themselves "flagged" by our "central gut feeling database".

[Rusty]

I am thinking just the opposite. This is actually fact that is branded as being a 'conspiracy theory' by the casinos and some naysayers.

We are in fact agreeing.
I was being sarcastic.

[maxd]

Sorry wasn't sure if it was ok to post their names on the forum.

I appreciate the caution but it's their Terms & Conditions so it's not exactly a secret.

FWIW this is the info I was sent, and yes, it all checks out:

Grand Mondial: In terms and conditions under Promotion Abuse and Policy Definition, clause 2C:

Grand Mondial audits cash-ins to determine if winnings are a result of promotion abuse. It is possible for promotion abuse to occur even though wagering is compliant with the standard terms and conditions and bonus system rules. If promotion abuse is identified, then Grand Mondial reserves the right at management’s discretion to take the following action(s) against the abusive player:
A) may be banned from receiving or redeeming further promotions
B) may be banned from play in the casino
B) may have account terminated with immediate effect
C) Player information forwarded to a central database resulting in players being barred from receiving bonuses at any other casinos.
D) Cash-ins may be denied, reversed and/or considered void. In such cases, only original purchase amount may be allowed for withdrawal.

Red Flush, in Promotional Terms and Conditions, clause 14:

We contribute to and make use of a shared industry database of promotion abusers and fraudsters. Individuals known from this database will not be eligible for any promotional offers and the casino reserves the right to lock their account and refuse access to the casino.

Maple Casino, in Terms And Conditions Applicable To All Promotions, clause 3:

• We contribute to and make use of a shared industry database of promotion abusers and fraudsters. Individuals known from this database will not be eligible for any promotional offers and the casino reserves the right to lock their account and refuse access to the casino.
• Information on known promotion abusers may be forwarded to Proc-Cyber Services (PCS) and Borth Holdings Ltd, our e-cash partners and may result in such player being barred from receiving bonuses at any other casino using PCS.

I don't think the moral of this story is that these are bad casinos for having these player databases, or claiming to, it's just that players need to be aware of this and -- and this is a big "and" -- this information should be used to decline deposits, not deny winnings.

Assuming that the casino has accepted the player's deposit and given the bonus, the definition of "bonus abuser" is way, Way, WAY too subjective to define it as an offense that warrants withholding a player's winnings. Note that this has been Casinomeister's standing position on so-called "bonus abuse" for quite some time.

[funky_seagull]

Sorry didn't want to cause strife for above casinos as I've personally never had any trouble with them, so didn't want to name them. But you're right the info is publicly available anyway for anyone to dig up if they can be arsed... so wouldn't have mattered...


This term is odd, it appears in the terms and conditions of many casinos:


It is possible for promotion abuse to occur even though wagering is compliant with the standard terms and conditions and bonus system rules.

It is very vague and could be used as an excuse to not pay someone if they didn't like the way they played, even if the play was above board.

Quite a few casinos have this term...