Texas Holdem shootout

**Zoozie** · 25th June 2007, 10:03 PM

I played Texas Holdem shootout for about 1 hour and managed to play even.

From a logic perspective you should have no double the bots are colluding. Since the bots can not bet/raise, there is no position disadvantage for the player. And during the turn (no bets at river) the player can still bet, which would give him an advantage since the bot does not have this options. The player also have more betting options preflop. On top of this half the times there is additional ante! (and no rake...). And the all in move(8BB) is powerfull since you know one of the bots has to call.

But it is obvious the bots knows the flop+river+turn and if one of the bots can win over the player it will be that bot playing. Or it is not even that random.

I came to this conclusion by noting how often the playing bot made 1+ pair, which was higher than what you would expect.

However the player has the betting advantage as I described, so the payout
could still be the 100% claimed. Also it strikes me that these simple rules
rules exactly should give 100% payout. This could be a clue to figuring out what algorithms are used for the bots.

Zoozie

**happygobrokey** · 25th June 2007, 10:30 PM

thanks for taking it seriously zooz, because

ZOMG this game is rigged it isn't even cards, every casino using the game is a cheating thief! they might as well be running "guess how many fingers?" like in that movie MAFIA!

**Zoozie** · 26th June 2007, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by happygobrokey

thanks for taking it seriously zooz

1 hour and not using serious statistics is not a definitive proof of anything. But I have played online poker for 4 years and it did not
feel right. I did 40+ all ins and in almost all of them the bot was the underdog. A typical situation was mine Ax vs. two middle cards. Here I should
win about 60%. I won less than half the times. (If I won half the time, I would still be an overall winner due to the additional ante from the other bot)

During online poker I have also experienced some really freaky sessions, but I only did one session on "Texas Holdem Shootout" and it was a little odd.
I did manage to play even though. If anyone has the time a simple way to test it would be:

After each games. Use www.twodimes.net and type in the start hands. Write down who won and the percentages on each player.

Then publish the list here (which should contain at least 50 games).

Zoozie

**happygobrokey** · 26th June 2007, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Zoozie

...it did not
feel right. I did 40+ all ins and in almost all of them the bot was the underdog. A typical situation was mine Ax vs. two middle cards. Here I should
win about 60%. I won less than half the times. (If I won half the time, I would still be an overall winner due to the additional ante from the other bot)...

so this indicates that the bots are colluding and have advance knowledge. because your ace high needs to hold up against two hands (even though only one plays, the better hand stays in) which is why it does not win to expectation. my crudest calculation is that you will win .6 vs any hand so to have a hand that beats both bots would be .6(.6)=.36 of the time. is that right?

i hope this is merely that bots know all the cards, because if the deck is rigged then that's just beyond reproach.

**Rusty** · 26th June 2007, 03:11 PM

I made a holdem type game that I would have enjoyed playing in Casinos so reading this thread gave me the idea to chuck it into the meisters slot ideas thread.
It could play randomly without any sneaky rules and still take you to the cleaners but in a much more enjoyable way

**dealer wins** · 26th June 2007, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Rusty

I made a holdem type game that I would have enjoyed playing in Casinos so reading this thread gave me the idea to chuck it into the meisters slot ideas thread.
It could play randomly without any sneaky rules and still take you to the cleaners but in a much more enjoyable way

I was thinking that the casinos must be able to come up with a profitable texas holdem game without resorting to the house players having prior knowledge of the community cards.

Introducing any game where cards not dealt yet are already known by the house player(s), is a blindly stupid move by an online casino given its already hard to actually believe the games are random in the first place.

This game just adds fuel to the "its all rigged anyway" arguement.

And apart from that, I reckon not many players will find it enjoyable to be outdrawn time and time again by 2 outers, and will be put off playing ANY game in that casino costing them business.

Rusty maybe you should patient your game and licence it to the casinos?

**Rusty** · 26th June 2007, 05:05 PM

I have a full suite of original Casino games and slots but but there must be a reason that the main software suppliers use so little imagination and effort when introducing new games.
I agree with you completely that the player finding themselves outdrawn most of the time is a dumb idea of how to gain a house edge.
It can be done in a much more subtle manner while maintaining the games integrity.
Very amateurish IMO

**vinylweatherman** · 26th June 2007, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Rusty

I have a full suite of original Casino games and slots but but there must be a reason that the main software suppliers use so little imagination and effort when introducing new games.
I agree with you completely that the player finding themselves outdrawn most of the time is a dumb idea of how to gain a house edge.
It can be done in a much more subtle manner while maintaining the games integrity.
Very amateurish IMO

Unfortunately, the big providers have their own teams, and taking outside ideas would mean paying royalties.
So long as none of the competition out innovate them, they have no reason to change.
Other than writing your own casino software to accommodate your games, you will need a lucky break with one or more of the movers in the industry, who can see potential in breaking the mould.
As well as seeing the game, they would need exhaustive testing to show that they are not going to be hammered by skilled players, those exploiting the originality of the game rules.

the controvertial Texas Hold 'em shootout may be one such high risk game, they claim a 100% payout with "perfect strategy", but if someone actually achieved this, the casino are guaranteed losers.
Cryptologic casinos have in the past launched a few 100%+ video poker games, and used the 100%+ as a draw, however, they were not simple, and it took time for a perfect strategy to become widespread, and at this point the paytable was reduced to make it less than 100%.

Anyone who can work out this shootout game could make a mint (provided it is not actually rigged as some believe).

**Rusty** · 27th June 2007, 01:33 AM

Winbig told me about a game they have at bet 365 which is very interesting and plays like the game I mention only with 4 hands and more complex choices and betting.
Well worth a look in fun mode but beware of real play this is one game that could have you staking more than you really wanted to.
Play it and you will see what I mean

**dealer wins** · 27th June 2007, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Rusty

this is one game that could have you staking more than you really wanted to.

This is the problem with trying to implement a casino version of Holdem.

The betting rounds on Texas holdem could theoretically be a total bet of 24 X your original stake so for a �1 stake you could end up losing �24 (In a real holdem limit game)

This is why they have implemented the current version where (apart from the player betting more) you can only lose a max of 2 X your initial stake.

It would take some creativity to come up with a holdem game suitable for casino play where the stake doesnt risk getting out of hand for the player. (and using non-rigged cards with non-clairvoyant bots)

Must be a way though.