Wagerworks bust stats

nafanny29

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Jul 8, 2004
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London, England
I have logged 500 (for each senario) hands of BJ for dealer upcard of 3, 4, 5 , and 6 bust % on wagerworks "players suite blackjack"

dealer upcard 3- bust 12%
dealer upcard 4- bust 18%
dealer upcard 5- bust 31%
dealer upcard 6- bust 22%

It took a lot of hands and money but I KNEW it was not genuine!!! The above stats say it all.

I started this logging after losing an unbelievable amount of times playing this game. This research has cost me another 950 in sheer frustration but at least I rest my case!!
 

aka23

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Jun 11, 2006
Location
Planet Earth
I have logged 500 (for each senario) hands of BJ for dealer upcard of 3, 4, 5 , and 6 bust % on wagerworks "players suite blackjack"

dealer upcard 3- bust 12%
dealer upcard 4- bust 18%
dealer upcard 5- bust 31%
dealer upcard 6- bust 22%

It took a lot of hands and money but I KNEW it was not genuine!!! The above stats say it all.

I started this logging after losing an unbelievable amount of times playing this game. This research has cost me another £950 in sheer frustration but at least I rest my case!!
The bust percentage should be more than double those numbers. If you played 500 hands in each scenario, then this game is clearly not fair. I've never played at Wagerworks (don't allow US). Do you believe there are problems with other games as well or just player's suite BJ?
 

KasinoKing

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Although I do like WagerWorks & play it a lot, there is definitely something 'not truly random' about some of their games.
The feeling I get is that some of their card games play more like a 'slot' - that is, you have a random chance of winning or losing each hand, but the actual cards dealt are not dealt randomly from a shuffled deck.
(Hope you understand what I mean!)

I found 'Players Suite' BJ particularly nasty - however, the 'standard' version seemed more like 'real' BlackJack.

I would love someone to analyze their Texas Hold'em Shootout Poker - the hands on this game are well beyond any truly random dealing. :eek2:
There's two hands played each game (player & dealer), but the number of Straights, Flushes & Full Houses have to be seen to be believed!
If someone could tell me what the odds of making each poker hand is, I'll do some stats myself.
 

pangloss

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Location
Australia
I have logged 500 (for each senario) hands of BJ for dealer upcard of 3, 4, 5 , and 6 bust % on wagerworks "players suite blackjack"

dealer upcard 3- bust 12%
dealer upcard 4- bust 18%
dealer upcard 5- bust 31%
dealer upcard 6- bust 22%

It took a lot of hands and money but I KNEW it was not genuine!!! The above stats say it all.

I started this logging after losing an unbelievable amount of times playing this game. This research has cost me another 950 in sheer frustration but at least I rest my case!!

The numbers and experience I had at PremierBet casino were worse than this and to my mind it simply re-enforces the notion that on-line casinos can and do alter their games at will.

It seems incredible but there is NO independant verification that ANY on-line Casino deals a fair game. Audits from the likes of PWH are deficient and wholly inadequate in the examination of each and every game offered for play.

I can recall a couple of years ago a piece of software was to be made available that could could verify "randomness" at each turn of a card (spin of wheel) but such software disappeared without a trace.

As frequent players of on-line casinos we ALL know the experience of say playing BJ at one casino software provider is manifestly different when compared to another (ie streaks, card combinations ect). But nevertheless we are repeatedly assured that the RNG is completely "random". HOGWASH!!

There is not a game of on-line BJ that even remotely resembles the BJ game dealt in B+M casinos. There are all rigged and the fact that some of them return "theoretical" win/loss amounts does not make a scrap of difference - they are still dealing cheating cards.


...
 

GrandMaster

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Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
I have logged 500 (for each senario) hands of BJ for dealer upcard of 3, 4, 5 , and 6 bust % on wagerworks "players suite blackjack"

dealer upcard 3- bust 12%
dealer upcard 4- bust 18%
dealer upcard 5- bust 31%
dealer upcard 6- bust 22%

It took a lot of hands and money but I KNEW it was not genuine!!! The above stats say it all.

I started this logging after losing an unbelievable amount of times playing this game. This research has cost me another 950 in sheer frustration but at least I rest my case!!
This is bad.
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has tables of dealer probabilities. The probabilities of the dealer busting should be about 37.4%, 39.6%, 41.8% and 42.3%.

You should contact the Michael Shackleford, or I can do it for you if you wish.
 

Vesuvio

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Apr 22, 2004
Location
UK
This seems to confirm what most regular players think about Wagerworks. There are a lot of good bonuses around which make it well worth playing at their casinos, but, for whatever reasons, the games don't deal natural cards.
 

soflat

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Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
Given their connections to IGT, these are pretty serious allegations. I think it needs to be documented by more players before they get a chance to do a coverup. The Wizard was apparently a consuiltant as well. Can it be done in play money mode?
 

nafanny29

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Joined
Jul 8, 2004
Location
London, England
It was mostly Virgin, a bit of paddypower and Skybet. And the game was "players suite BJ multihand"

I was playing 50p-2 a hand mostly. I started logging this on paper 2 months back when I kept noticing the dealer turn over a "good" downcard. Ie. dealer upcard of 6, and a 4 or 5 would turn over so many times etc. (followed by a 10 of course).

I think this is definately a "slot BJ game".

An Texas holdem shootout IMHO is not random at all, worse than their BJ by far.

And by contrast their "table BJ 6 decks" (havnt kept any stats) actually seems fair.
 

nafanny29

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Jul 8, 2004
Location
London, England
It doesn't say it is a slot game. The rules state the game uses "6 decks of standard playing cards, shuffled for each hand of play.".

True.

The funny thing is that I only bothered writing down the amount of times the dealer busted because of unbelievable sessions that I thought just cannot be right.

The first night I started writing down the bust/nonbust%, my GF was playing and I was watching/recording. We played from about 8pm to 4am in the morning and lost 450 playing 2 x 1 hands. We must have played about 2000 hands in total.

Everything else seems normal. Although I didnt note these down the dealer and player BJs seemed about right. Our bust% seemed OK also. It was just the amount of times the dealer (didnt) bust that was off, and this is what I had noticed over the preceeding sessions which made my record this.

Anyway I will be in Vegas by tomorrow evening for some REAL BJ. Bring it baby :D :D :D :D
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
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Location
England
According to the "Pay Table" for Texas Hold'em Shootout:

The expected payback for this game of chance is 100% based upon play strategy
 

steadman

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Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Location
Robertsbridge, East Sussex
I played one of the WW casino's about a month ago,specifically the Texas Holdem Shootout game. I didn't like it.

Absolutely astounding display of good luck for the bot players. I could only assume it was a slot game and had no basis in any real card game.

It's pretty easy to check it for honesty/luck - you can use the odds calculator at cardplayer.com. Simply put in your two cards and the playing bots two cards and it will give you an exact percentage of the chance of either hand winning. You can do this with every hand you play since the hands always go to a showdown.
 
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thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
I have logged 500 (for each senario) hands of BJ for dealer upcard of 3, 4, 5 , and 6 bust % on wagerworks "players suite blackjack"

dealer upcard 3- bust 12%
dealer upcard 4- bust 18%
dealer upcard 5- bust 31%
dealer upcard 6- bust 22%

It took a lot of hands and money but I KNEW it was not genuine!!! The above stats say it all.

I started this logging after losing an unbelievable amount of times playing this game. This research has cost me another 950 in sheer frustration but at least I rest my case!!


Assuming you took accurate logs for 500 hands, with:

6: 110 busts out of 500
5: 155 busts out of 500
4: 90 busts out of 500
3: 60 busts out of 500

then your data is absolute 'picking out the same grain of sand twice out of every grain in the world', win the lottery 6 weeks running type, conclusive proof of cheating.

The chances of 110 or fewer busts with dealer upcard of 6 is approx:
0.0000000000000000000011

You would be hanged on evidence billions of times less conclusive than this.

For 155 busts (or fewer) out of 500 on a dealer upcard of 5:

0.00000038

For 90 busts (or fewer) out of 500 with a 4:

0.00000000000000000000000018

For 60 busts (or fewer) out of 500 with a 3:

0.00000000000000000000000000000000000022

The cumulative probability is even lower: the number is so small Excel just gives a probability of zero, so smaller than 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

The logs are all stored in 'My Account', and can be retrieved quite easily. I suggest you get them spidered into Excel, because if what you are saying is accurate you have proof of fraud and would be advised to sue for a large amount of money.

The implications are *extremely* serious. I would advise you to pay someone to write a program to spider all the data post haste.
 
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pangloss

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Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Location
Australia
The implications are *extremely* serious.


And Wagerworks are not the only ones delivering dodgey games so the matter is even more dire for the on-line player.

I just find it inexplicable a player has to go to all this expense and all this trouble in PROVING the game is unfair. It has to be the other way round - it is for the on-line casino to PROVE in the first instance that the game being dealt is fair. Third party independant verification just has to be implemented across the board and the fact that no on-line casino engages such a process is a screaming joke.

No bloody wonder the USA has banned all these pirates from their shores in preference to on-shore regulated and authenticated gaming establishments. It is time for the world to follow the USA example and get serious about protecting the player interests.


...
 

thelawnet

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Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
you need to prove your allegations now.

Get the logs downloaded.

The head of Virgin Games has a very sanctimonious article in The Guardian today basically saying that all the companies offering bets to US players knew they were breaking the law, and when online gambling gets regulated and legal in the US, honest and reputable games like his will be the ones allowed back in.
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It would be nice if you can prove what you say.
 

soflat

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Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
You definitely need those logs pronto. They've probably already been tipped off that this is an issue.
 

theprobe

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Joined
Aug 21, 2006
Location
UK
Wagerworks

Guys,

thanks for taking the time to express your feelings. Though I understand that it frustrating to have a run of bad luck, I notice that no one ever comes on here to post the jackpots they've had, or the fact they they have won an unbelievably amount of times in a row. I get quite emotive when I read this stuff and although I am not sure whether a response will satisfy you all, I wanted to mail you with something.

Our sites are licensed and regulated by the Alderney Gambling Control Commission (one of the toughest and most heavily regulated jurisdictions in the world). Both TST testing lab and AGCC test and certify the randomness and independence of all outcomes. In addition to this independent testing, Wagerworks does 1D and 2D chi-square testing across 10s of millions of card deal outcome to verify uniform card randomness and no cross-correlation.


The Wagerworks RNG was originally developed by the very well respected Professor Evangelos Yfantis of University of Nevada, Las Vegas, for which a patent was granted (US patent 5,871,400). This RNG was incorporated into the Silicon Gaming slot machine which was tested and certified by half a dozen different gaming labs including Nevada Gaming Control Lab, Atlantic City Gaming Control and GLI. These games have been in continual operation since 1997. When the RNG was adapted for online use four years ago, it was subsequently tested and certified by two independent online gaming test labs: GGS and TST.


The misbehaviour we are being accused of would be unequivocally illegal in Alderney (as well as almost every other regulated jurisdiction).
We are owned by the largest producer and distributor of slot machines in the world (www.igt.com)
Such illegal acts, if real, would jeopardize IGTs world-wide licenses and put IGT out of business. IGT would never risk billions of US dollars of annual revenue in an attempt to illegally make a bit more profit from one of its smallest sectors. Likewise, Virgin would never risk the incredible value of its worldwide brand. PaddyPower and BlueSq are PLCs. Look at a company such as Sky. Is just isn't credible that they would ever use any software that wasn't fair.

If you have an issue with your payback, then please drop a line to the relevant casino and I am sure they will be in touch with us and we can see what your RTP is. All games have Par Sheets associated with them that will give an idea of your Payback and we can see, for the amount of plays, whether you are within the parameters.

regards

Michael @ wagerworks
 

Zoozie

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Thank for you for a serious and highly informative first post.

The Wagerworks RNG was originally developed by the very well respected Professor Evangelos Yfantis of University of Nevada, Las Vegas, for which a patent was granted (US patent 5,871,400).

I am sure the RNG is working perfectly. It is a misunderstood concept that the RNG is responsible for various 'malfunctions'. It is most often the software that does the mapping from the RNG result to the game event, that is malfunctioning. Remember the English Harbour doubling 'card game'...

In addition to this independent testing, Wagerworks does 1D and 2D chi-square testing across 10’s of millions of card deal outcome to verify uniform card randomness and no cross-correlation.

This is the way to test it. You can not ask for more.

To make any progress players need to post logs, if wagerworks allows player to request a such???)

If the 'raw' serverlogs are text-logs then I can help, I would not mind extracting the statistical data (I can make a program) to find the bust rates for the various dealer starting cards so I can make a list like the one post by nafanny29. Then some of the blackjack statistics experts (not me) can crunch the results.

Zoozie
 
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KasinoKing

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Guys,

thanks for taking the time to express your feelings. Though I understand that it frustrating to have a run of bad luck, I notice that no one ever comes on here to post the jackpots they've had, or the fact they they have won an unbelievably amount of times in a row. I get quite emotive when I read this stuff and although I am not sure whether a response will satisfy you all, I wanted to mail you with something.

regards
Michael @ wagerworks
Michael,
Your response here is very much welcomed & appreciated! :thumbsup:

Could you just clarify something for me (us) about the Texas Shootout game:

Are all the cards (player, bots & table) supposedly randomly 'drawn' from a shuffled deck, or is this game indeed more like a 'slot' in that the software decides before each hand starts whether the player will win or lose, and then just deals cards to give the appropriate outcome?

To me the latter is acceptable, as long as the players are made aware of this in the rules of the game.

Thanks,
KK.
 

theprobe

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 21, 2006
Location
UK
Truly fair games, like ours, dont change the odds over time to try to achieve a certain RTP.
Unlike a UK pub game, a players chance for winning a big award does not change if she has already won one or more jackpots. Your odds of winning on a given game are exactly same every single game no matter what. Prior wins, prior losses, balance, deposits, bet size, length of play, other player results, day of week, time of day, phase of moon, etc. none of these affect your odds.

Return To Player (RTP) reflects the expected average value of a single play of the game. It is a simple calculation which considers the size of each possible award and the odds of getting such winning outcomes. Of course, when you actually play one game, you dont get a sum of all possibilities you get a single outcome. This result yields either a no win or some award from the pay table. Lets say you only bet on one payline of a slot game. Your effective return after one game would be 0% (loser), or 200%, 500%, 1000%, etc. Obviously, you cant be at 96% return after a single game.

A good analogy would be flipping a coin. You have a 50% chance of having the coin land head side up. However, after one flip, the ratio of heads to tails would either be 100% or 0%. Though the ratio could equalise after a second flip, in is just as likely not to. You need lots of coin flips in order for the average percentage of heads to pretty much be guaranteed to be close to 50%. It is worth pointing out that after 1 million coin flips, it is exceedingly unlikely that there will be exactly 500,000 heads and 500,000 tails.

Back to our casino games. The larger the number of games played, the closer the actual return should be expected RTP. The number of games to be played in order for the actual return to be within 1% of the expected return is a function of volatility of the game itself. Typically, the higher the top award, the greater the volatility. A win one / lose one proposition like playing BLACK in roulette, will normally have actual return close to expected return after 14,000 plays. This level of closeness can occur much sooner, but it takes 14,000 plays to achieve a 90% confidence level that we will be within 1% of expectation.

A game like Wheel of Fortune, where you can win 50000x your bet, has much greater volatility. To be very likely to be within 1% of expect return requires 1.4 million games! The fewer games played, the wider the expected difference between actual return and expected return.

As for Texas Hold'em, Bot behaviour is based only on the following rules and never on the value of your cards, the size of your Blind bet, your prior outcomes, your balance, or any other external factor.

If the red bot has a stronger hand than the blue bot before the flop, it will always call and raise your initial Blind bet. The blue bot will fold.

If the blue bot has a stronger hand than the red bot, then the red bot will randomly either call your initial Blind bet or fold. In the former case, referred to as a rich pot, the red bot is guaranteed to fold the next time around. So, if you subsequently CALL, RAISE or go ALL IN, the red bot will leave the game to you and the blue bot.

If either bot hand is in the lower quartile of standard initial hand rankings, the hand with the highest ranking is selected to be the strong hand; otherwise the best outcome is used. In the case where both bots have equally strong hands, one of the bots is randomly chosen.

After the flop, the remaining bot will always match your betting action. If you CHECK, the bot will check. If you BET, the bot will call, but will never raise. After the flop, you always control the betting.

Some of the sites using wagerworks software even publish a strategy guide. I know some players find it hard to believe but there is no value in players losing their money so soon due to not playing top strategy. We do value their play experience and I think this is proven by the unique contant with exciting features a la Monopoly, Wheel, Texas and games with extra features such as 21+3 and Hot Streak Bonuses.

I would love to spend all day on here correcting people or answering our case but I simply can't. I beliee that you have a high level of understa ding from many members but sometimes whena player loses, they simply cannot comprehend that a certain software isn't rigged.

regards
 

henryVIII

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Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Location
UK
OK, I am confused.

The lawnet says the results posted are of the billions to one scennario.

The rep is saying there is nothing unusual there.

Both cant be right.

If the sample size is sufficient, as a question of fact, who is reading the results correctly?
 

soflat

Dormant Account
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
OK, I am confused.

The lawnet says the results posted are of the billions to one scennario.

The rep is saying there is nothing unusual there.

Both cant be right.

If the sample size is sufficient, as a question of fact, who is reading the results correctly?

So far, I believe the billions to one scenario.

But the problem is that we don't know if the OP has the log files. He said he was just tallying things by hand. Are the logs easy to get in the WagerWorks software?

Without the log files, there is no evidence of the results and WW is in the clear.
 
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