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Wagerworks bust stats

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by nafanny29, Oct 12, 2006.

    Oct 12, 2006
  1. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    I have logged 500 (for each senario) hands of BJ for dealer upcard of 3, 4, 5 , and 6 bust % on wagerworks "players suite blackjack"

    dealer upcard 3- bust 12%
    dealer upcard 4- bust 18%
    dealer upcard 5- bust 31%
    dealer upcard 6- bust 22%

    It took a lot of hands and money but I KNEW it was not genuine!!! The above stats say it all.

    I started this logging after losing an unbelievable amount of times playing this game. This research has cost me another 950 in sheer frustration but at least I rest my case!!
     
    7 people like this.
  2. Oct 12, 2006
  3. soflat

    soflat Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Scientist
    Location:
    Florida
    What are the expected bust %'s?
     
  4. Oct 12, 2006
  5. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    The bust percentage should be more than double those numbers. If you played 500 hands in each scenario, then this game is clearly not fair. I've never played at Wagerworks (don't allow US). Do you believe there are problems with other games as well or just player's suite BJ?
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Oct 12, 2006
  7. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Although I do like WagerWorks & play it a lot, there is definitely something 'not truly random' about some of their games.
    The feeling I get is that some of their card games play more like a 'slot' - that is, you have a random chance of winning or losing each hand, but the actual cards dealt are not dealt randomly from a shuffled deck.
    (Hope you understand what I mean!)

    I found 'Players Suite' BJ particularly nasty - however, the 'standard' version seemed more like 'real' BlackJack.

    I would love someone to analyze their Texas Hold'em Shootout Poker - the hands on this game are well beyond any truly random dealing. :eek2:
    There's two hands played each game (player & dealer), but the number of Straights, Flushes & Full Houses have to be seen to be believed!
    If someone could tell me what the odds of making each poker hand is, I'll do some stats myself.
     
  8. Oct 12, 2006
  9. pangloss

    pangloss Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Finance
    Location:
    Australia
    The numbers and experience I had at PremierBet casino were worse than this and to my mind it simply re-enforces the notion that on-line casinos can and do alter their games at will.

    It seems incredible but there is NO independant verification that ANY on-line Casino deals a fair game. Audits from the likes of PWH are deficient and wholly inadequate in the examination of each and every game offered for play.

    I can recall a couple of years ago a piece of software was to be made available that could could verify "randomness" at each turn of a card (spin of wheel) but such software disappeared without a trace.

    As frequent players of on-line casinos we ALL know the experience of say playing BJ at one casino software provider is manifestly different when compared to another (ie streaks, card combinations ect). But nevertheless we are repeatedly assured that the RNG is completely "random". HOGWASH!!

    There is not a game of on-line BJ that even remotely resembles the BJ game dealt in B+M casinos. There are all rigged and the fact that some of them return "theoretical" win/loss amounts does not make a scrap of difference - they are still dealing cheating cards.


    ...
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Oct 12, 2006
  11. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    This is bad. You must register/login in order to see the link. has tables of dealer probabilities. The probabilities of the dealer busting should be about 37.4%, 39.6%, 41.8% and 42.3%.

    You should contact the Michael Shackleford, or I can do it for you if you wish.
     
  12. Oct 12, 2006
  13. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    This seems to confirm what most regular players think about Wagerworks. There are a lot of good bonuses around which make it well worth playing at their casinos, but, for whatever reasons, the games don't deal natural cards.
     
  14. Oct 12, 2006
  15. soflat

    soflat Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Scientist
    Location:
    Florida
    Given their connections to IGT, these are pretty serious allegations. I think it needs to be documented by more players before they get a chance to do a coverup. The Wizard was apparently a consuiltant as well. Can it be done in play money mode?
     
  16. Oct 12, 2006
  17. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    Nafanny29: which casino was it, and which game?
     
  18. Oct 12, 2006
  19. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    It was mostly Virgin, a bit of paddypower and Skybet. And the game was "players suite BJ multihand"

    I was playing 50p-2 a hand mostly. I started logging this on paper 2 months back when I kept noticing the dealer turn over a "good" downcard. Ie. dealer upcard of 6, and a 4 or 5 would turn over so many times etc. (followed by a 10 of course).

    I think this is definately a "slot BJ game".

    An Texas holdem shootout IMHO is not random at all, worse than their BJ by far.

    And by contrast their "table BJ 6 decks" (havnt kept any stats) actually seems fair.
     
  20. Oct 12, 2006
  21. soflat

    soflat Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Scientist
    Location:
    Florida
    It doesn't say it is a slot game. The rules state the game uses "6 decks of standard playing cards, shuffled for each hand of play.".
     
  22. Oct 12, 2006
  23. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    True.

    The funny thing is that I only bothered writing down the amount of times the dealer busted because of unbelievable sessions that I thought just cannot be right.

    The first night I started writing down the bust/nonbust%, my GF was playing and I was watching/recording. We played from about 8pm to 4am in the morning and lost 450 playing 2 x 1 hands. We must have played about 2000 hands in total.

    Everything else seems normal. Although I didnt note these down the dealer and player BJs seemed about right. Our bust% seemed OK also. It was just the amount of times the dealer (didnt) bust that was off, and this is what I had noticed over the preceeding sessions which made my record this.

    Anyway I will be in Vegas by tomorrow evening for some REAL BJ. Bring it baby :D :D :D :D
     
  24. Oct 12, 2006
  25. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    According to the "Pay Table" for Texas Hold'em Shootout:

     
  26. Oct 12, 2006
  27. steadman

    steadman Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Theatre production
    Location:
    Robertsbridge, East Sussex
    I played one of the WW casino's about a month ago,specifically the Texas Holdem Shootout game. I didn't like it.

    Absolutely astounding display of good luck for the bot players. I could only assume it was a slot game and had no basis in any real card game.

    It's pretty easy to check it for honesty/luck - you can use the odds calculator at cardplayer.com. Simply put in your two cards and the playing bots two cards and it will give you an exact percentage of the chance of either hand winning. You can do this with every hand you play since the hands always go to a showdown.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2006
  28. Oct 12, 2006
  29. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK

    Assuming you took accurate logs for 500 hands, with:

    6: 110 busts out of 500
    5: 155 busts out of 500
    4: 90 busts out of 500
    3: 60 busts out of 500

    then your data is absolute 'picking out the same grain of sand twice out of every grain in the world', win the lottery 6 weeks running type, conclusive proof of cheating.

    The chances of 110 or fewer busts with dealer upcard of 6 is approx:
    0.0000000000000000000011

    You would be hanged on evidence billions of times less conclusive than this.

    For 155 busts (or fewer) out of 500 on a dealer upcard of 5:

    0.00000038

    For 90 busts (or fewer) out of 500 with a 4:

    0.00000000000000000000000018

    For 60 busts (or fewer) out of 500 with a 3:

    0.00000000000000000000000000000000000022

    The cumulative probability is even lower: the number is so small Excel just gives a probability of zero, so smaller than 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

    The logs are all stored in 'My Account', and can be retrieved quite easily. I suggest you get them spidered into Excel, because if what you are saying is accurate you have proof of fraud and would be advised to sue for a large amount of money.

    The implications are *extremely* serious. I would advise you to pay someone to write a program to spider all the data post haste.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2006
    3 people like this.
  30. Oct 13, 2006
  31. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    I just just to confirm that the above probabilities are correct.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Oct 13, 2006
  33. pangloss

    pangloss Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Finance
    Location:
    Australia

    And Wagerworks are not the only ones delivering dodgey games so the matter is even more dire for the on-line player.

    I just find it inexplicable a player has to go to all this expense and all this trouble in PROVING the game is unfair. It has to be the other way round - it is for the on-line casino to PROVE in the first instance that the game being dealt is fair. Third party independant verification just has to be implemented across the board and the fact that no on-line casino engages such a process is a screaming joke.

    No bloody wonder the USA has banned all these pirates from their shores in preference to on-shore regulated and authenticated gaming establishments. It is time for the world to follow the USA example and get serious about protecting the player interests.


    ...
     
  34. Oct 13, 2006
  35. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    you need to prove your allegations now.

    Get the logs downloaded.

    The head of Virgin Games has a very sanctimonious article in The Guardian today basically saying that all the companies offering bets to US players knew they were breaking the law, and when online gambling gets regulated and legal in the US, honest and reputable games like his will be the ones allowed back in. You must register/login in order to see the link.

    It would be nice if you can prove what you say.
     
  36. Oct 13, 2006
  37. soflat

    soflat Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Scientist
    Location:
    Florida
    You definitely need those logs pronto. They've probably already been tipped off that this is an issue.
     
  38. Oct 16, 2006
  39. theprobe

    theprobe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Bit of everything
    Location:
    UK
    Wagerworks

    Guys,

    thanks for taking the time to express your feelings. Though I understand that it frustrating to have a run of bad luck, I notice that no one ever comes on here to post the jackpots they've had, or the fact they they have won an unbelievably amount of times in a row. I get quite emotive when I read this stuff and although I am not sure whether a response will satisfy you all, I wanted to mail you with something.

    Our sites are licensed and regulated by the Alderney Gambling Control Commission (one of the toughest and most heavily regulated jurisdictions in the world). Both TST testing lab and AGCC test and certify the randomness and independence of all outcomes. In addition to this independent testing, Wagerworks does 1D and 2D chi-square testing across 10s of millions of card deal outcome to verify uniform card randomness and no cross-correlation.


    The Wagerworks RNG was originally developed by the very well respected Professor Evangelos Yfantis of University of Nevada, Las Vegas, for which a patent was granted (US patent 5,871,400). This RNG was incorporated into the Silicon Gaming slot machine which was tested and certified by half a dozen different gaming labs including Nevada Gaming Control Lab, Atlantic City Gaming Control and GLI. These games have been in continual operation since 1997. When the RNG was adapted for online use four years ago, it was subsequently tested and certified by two independent online gaming test labs: GGS and TST.


    The misbehaviour we are being accused of would be unequivocally illegal in Alderney (as well as almost every other regulated jurisdiction).
    We are owned by the largest producer and distributor of slot machines in the world (You must register/login in order to see the link.)
    Such illegal acts, if real, would jeopardize IGTs world-wide licenses and put IGT out of business. IGT would never risk billions of US dollars of annual revenue in an attempt to illegally make a bit more profit from one of its smallest sectors. Likewise, Virgin would never risk the incredible value of its worldwide brand. PaddyPower and BlueSq are PLCs. Look at a company such as Sky. Is just isn't credible that they would ever use any software that wasn't fair.

    If you have an issue with your payback, then please drop a line to the relevant casino and I am sure they will be in touch with us and we can see what your RTP is. All games have Par Sheets associated with them that will give an idea of your Payback and we can see, for the amount of plays, whether you are within the parameters.

    regards

    Michael @ wagerworks
     

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