Joyland Casino: Problem withdrawal request

[Josyck]

I think it is clear now what is our position and the position of the casino and the only thing we can do is to wait that an experienced person in this kind of conflicts like Casinomeister try to get a good solution for everybody.

[realwtfsup]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt

Well I'll just state that most of the civilized world disagrees with you. Sportsbooks offer incorrect odds on a relatively frequent basis, and without fail all wagers on these games are null and void and bets are returned without winnings.

They make ALL wagers null and void.

This case is completely differn't. Where are all the people who lost there deposits refunds?

[TrixSlice]

It is true. I remember one day being 100 points = 1. And the next day, or morning, it was 150. I remember 'cause I thought 'oh shucks, I should have cashed in my comps earlier!' I wish I knew this was going to be an ordeal, I would have taken screenshots!

[JohnGalt]

Yes the most curious part of this is the fact that it went on for over a week. That is difficult to understand if it was truly a mistake. The fact that they adjusted it is another very odd thing. However, it's hard to understand how this could be some kind of scheme. Obviously it would be nice to have some kind of response from the management there.

Now, obviously they owe in the hundreds of thousands of dollars because of this, so I think there is no possibility of everyone getting their winnings because they obviously cannot afford to pay them. I think what they should do is refund EVERYONE's deposit who played there during this error and pay out legitimate winnings on a case-by-case basis.

[elscrabinda]

This thread makes me feel sick. Where do Playtech get off on giving liscenses to jerks like this? I assumed that one of the reasons Bryan made up with them was that they would put a stop to these cowboy setups. I'm glad that most people are planning on fighting this one although I was very disheartened by the poster who was saying how nice the CS women was when she was telling him that her employers were going to steal £4000 from him. Its up to you of course, but I know I wouldn't back down like that.

For the record, and I hate to give this place any positive publicity (luckily it'll get swamped by more horror stories), I have just been paid on a withdrawal, albeit a very small one. This was after cashing out $40 worth of comp points as well. I had already wiped out the first deposit bonus (in record time- 14 $100 bets to lose $1300).

Good luck everyone

[thelawnet]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt

Yes the most curious part of this is the fact that it went on for over a week. That is difficult to understand if it was truly a mistake. The fact that they adjusted it is another very odd thing. However, it's hard to understand how this could be some kind of scheme. Obviously it would be nice to have some kind of response from the management there.

Now, obviously they owe in the hundreds of thousands of dollars because of this, so I think there is no possibility of everyone getting their winnings because they obviously cannot afford to pay them. I think what they should do is refund EVERYONE's deposit who played there during this error and pay out legitimate winnings on a case-by-case basis.

Do you work for these guys JohnGalt?

Anyway, in life if a business can't afford to pay, they cannot say 'Sorry we won't pay', they can either pay or go bust. In this case I am sure the business has at least a million dollars, as they consist of about half-a-dozen casinos.

Secondly, as you say they offered this comp rate for a week. 4% comps means a 3.5% player edge or less. This is good for players, but really, are they going to tell the players playing slots the week before, at a 5% or greater *casino* edge, that they are going to get their money back, because it's unfair that they should have the edge? They offer the games they choose to offer and must stand by the results.

'Legitimate' winnings is meaningless, as people who were ahead would have continued wagering due to the generous comps policy.

E.g., if I signup to a casino, and hit a royal flush, I'd probably cashout straight away. However if they are offering 4% comps, I'd keep on playing. Minus the comps, I'd likely lose money. But if they hadn't offered the comps I would have cashed out already anyway!

[ElDuderino]

The last post has moved me to post in this thread. I play VP pretty big, and I hit a $20,000 royal flush at Joyland!!! I was going to quit after this, but I definitely like to play. Just the previous day, I busted a signup bonus and wagered nearly $400,000 before doing so at another Playtech casino... man, I play too much video poker for my own good.

Following is the text of my CM PAB. Please note: My username that I submitted the PAB under is different than this one. I have zero trust in any online casino right now, thanks to Joyland, those gutless thieves:

"Dear Bryan,

I am writing about a problem I'm having with Joyland Casino (Playtech software, Casino Pays group). Let me just say that whenever I play at a casino, I do my due dilligence and make sure I know exactly what the permitted games and wagering requirements for a bonus are. I stick to reputable casinos/groups, and I've never been shafter, not once. So I'm *really* pissed right now.

I played at Joyland for the first time under a $500 deposit, $808 bonus promotion they had. I lost both... no problem. Livechat offered me a $1000 deposit, $500 bonus for a second deposit (which wasn't very generous, given that $300 + $400 is standard for the second deposit bonus). Well, playing $100/spin Jacks or Better, I hit a royal flush pretty much right off the bat!!! I was enjoying myself, so I played a ton. I'd guess at least half a million in wagering.

Since it was a pretty big win, I took a screenshot of the pending cashout screen and of livechat saying that I was good to go to cashout, and the money would be processed to Neteller within six days. Well, I was shocked when three days later, they deposited $1,500 into my Neteller, withdrew it, and then deposited it again!!! They didn't say anything about the $xx,000+ I had won, and they froze my account!!! Nobody answers at their (866) number, and I can't access livechat since my account is frozen

Here is a copy, verbatim, of a letter I sent to support@joylandcasino.com:

"Hello,

I am going to make this e-mail as concise and polite as I can. I recently deposited at your casino, lost all my money, and redeposited. I was frustrated at losing the first time, so I was betting big ($100 a spin) at Jacks or Better video poker, and I was fortunate enough to hit a royal flush! Thanks largely to this $xx,000 win, I cashed out over $xx,000.

Well, imagine my surprise when I received a cashout for only $1,500. To add insult to injury, when I logged in to check my pending withdrawals, I found my account was locked. That makes me angry, and the fact that I haven't been e-mailed any explanation of what's going on makes me even angrier.

I gave you guys *tons* of action, more than met the wagering requirements, and did nothing wrong. I don't know if Joyland has a poor reputation in the online gaming world, but I'm going to do some research now. I will also be reporting you to any online gaming watchdog groups I can find if this issue isn't handled in a manner which I find satisfactory.

xxx"

Bryan, please help me resolve this. If you can work your CM magic on this one I shall sing your praises throughout the land.

Thanks,
xxx"

I have NEVER been this pissed in my life. They falsified withdrawals logs. They don't answer their phones, at least not within the first eight rings. Their livechat plays dumb when you ask them.

I hit an f'n $20k royal flush in the first 15 minutes of play, yet I continued to play. I hope the Meister can help us all out, because if I don't get paid, I am going to see to it that this group's whole reputation gets ruined. I hope all you people are as pissed as me.

"This aggression won't stand, man!" Kudos to those who get that movie quote. Remember, it's only El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

-The Dude

[JohnGalt]

Originally Posted by thelawnet

Do you work for these guys JohnGalt?

Anyway, in life if a business can't afford to pay, they cannot say 'Sorry we won't pay', they can either pay or go bust. In this case I am sure the business has at least a million dollars, as they consist of about half-a-dozen casinos.

Secondly, as you say they offered this comp rate for a week. 4% comps means a 3.5% player edge or less. This is good for players, but really, are they going to tell the players playing slots the week before, at a 5% or greater *casino* edge, that they are going to get their money back, because it's unfair that they should have the edge? They offer the games they choose to offer and must stand by the results.

'Legitimate' winnings is meaningless, as people who were ahead would have continued wagering due to the generous comps policy.

E.g., if I signup to a casino, and hit a royal flush, I'd probably cashout straight away. However if they are offering 4% comps, I'd keep on playing. Minus the comps, I'd likely lose money. But if they hadn't offered the comps I would have cashed out already anyway!

No I do not work for a casino, although of course everyone accuses everyone else of that first thing whenever someone doesn't side 100% with the players. I really don't think Joyland is under the same management as those other casinos, because those casinos have good support and don't do crap like this. If we were talking about the carnival group they probably could pay out. I wasn't saying that excused them, just that whether they'd pay out was a moot point because obviously they can't pay. So they could go bust, but people still wouldn't get their money.

I agree that these are very suspicious circumstances with the length of time we're talking about, etc., as I stated earlier. You statement about slots and unfairness is frankly not relevant and not well thought out. Of course players frequently have the edge, that does not make it "unfair". Fairness has nothing to do with it. If it was a MISTAKE on the casino's part though, they have a right, imo, to void the wagers that took place during that time period, depending I guess on the T&C they have. It's exactly as if their software had an error and was paying out at the completely wrong rate.

If on the other hand this was their deliberate policy and people simply took advantage of it as anyone would take advantage of a good deal, then they should go bust trying to pay people. However, I thought it was a mistake and that is why I personally did not play there all week making $1000's.

[The Gunslinger]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt

I think what they should do is refund EVERYONE's deposit who played there during this error and pay out legitimate winnings on a case-by-case basis.

Why? Did you play there and lose?

A lot more facts seem to have come out since the last time I checked this thread.

First and most alarming to me is that Joyland casino has modified transaction logs in such an outright manner with no real explination for it. I have personally never seen transaction logs modified, and that alone should be enough to convince the public that the casino was attempting to defraud it's players. What would you do if your bank modified without your consent your deposit history to reflect less money being put into your account?! Someone would see the inside of a federal prison.

Secondly this whole rubbish with comp points. It's extremely clear to me that if they had to presence of mind to modified the comp conversion rate from 100 pts. = $1 to 150 pts. = $1, they have lost all their credibility to the extent of claiming it was a "glitch."

On the topic of "Glitch," this was not a glitch. A glitch is when I cash in 350 Comp points and have $1,085,349.00 added to my balance. That is a glitch. The comp conversion rate is a specific configuration. Whether it was misconfigured at this casino or not is immeterial, someone input that rate into the backend of the software, and the casino not honoring that rate is absolutely inexcusable.

Let me bring to light some of the highlights from the Joyland Casino Website:

Moreover, Joyland Casino guarantees its commitment to fair gaming. Its professional, supportive, and secure environment allows for a winning experience.

Obviously not. If this was infact the case, they don't "allow for a winning environment." Ironically they have declined to pay all of these people for exactly the oposite reason! "Ummm sorry, we can't pay you because our casino there for a couple of days was actually a 'winning environment'"

For players convenience, Joyland Casino offers built-in games and financial gaming logs for checking previously played gaming results. History and detailed information is always readily available for the players convenience as well.

This was funny to me, because it's really not avaliable to those who have been screwed out of their money and been locked out of the casino now is it?

it goes on to further say ...

Game history transactions include the start of the initial game, bet and win amounts, detailed game results and more. Financial transaction histories, which display all cash-outs and deposits, can also be accessed anytime while online.

Oh yeah?! Which gaming and transaction histories are those? The ones that have been modified by the casino? Lotta good that's going to do the players.

Every client is important to us, from high rollers to clients that play for fun.
We value and respect your patronage.
Please feel free to contact us any time by phone or email,
As it is of the utmost importance to us that you feel completely at ease
and safe with all your dealings at Joyland Casino.

Ok then here's your chance to prove it. Five bucks says that if you payout all the rightfull withdrawals to all these players, you won't hear anyone question the reliability of your casino for a long long time. Remember when 888 paid out all that money on the roulette promo? When was the last time you caught someone saying that Casino-on-Net wasn't gunna pay.

I mean, the real question I have is why is a comp point ratio a good enough reason to void winnings? It's not anyone who played at the casino's fault that Joyland screwed up when configuring their software (assuming it wasn't on purpose as some other posters have suggested.) They screwed up when they failed to change it back (and when they did change it, didn't even cut half the player's odds.) They screwed up when they modified player's transaction histories. They screwed up when they refunded deposits and then rewithdrew them from Neteller without authorization only to refund them again (as has been mentioned in other threads about this topic elsewhere.) They screwed up. This is a blatant case of player's being defrauded.

And as a final note, to those who might suggest that players playing under a favorable comp conversion rate I would ask you to draw a fair comparison. I don't remember off the top of my head when MegaJacks (a Playtech progressive Jacks or Better video poker machine) breaks over 100% return, I think it's somewhere around $1500 or so. I would wonder, should all the players who only play that machine when it has favorable odds be denied their winnings? I mean, if you're only playing that video poker machine when it's over 100% return, you MUST be doing it just to line your own pockets! I say we void all their winnings too.

The Gunslinger

[thelawnet]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt

I really don't think Joyland is under the same management as those other casinos, because those casinos have good support and don't do crap like this.

I would dispute that these guys have good support, from personal experience at Monaco Gold.

Anyway, Joyland terms page:

JOYLAND CASINO END-USER AGREEMENT

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY THE FOLLOWING LEGALLY BINDING AGREEMENT BETWEEN CROWN SOLUTION GAMING LTD., UNDER THE BRAND NAME OF JOYLAND CASINO AND YOU.
...
Online Casino Crown Solution Gaming Limited’s internet gaming system on the Website and related services and gaming activities as offered and listed at http://www.joylandcasino.com including but not limited to, online casino and/or online bingo and/or any other games, where applicable;

And here's Carnival Casino's terms page:

PLEASE READ THE AGREEMENT CAREFULLY AND MAKE SURE YOU FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS CONTENTS. IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS ABOUT YOUR RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS RESULTING FROM THE ACCEPTANCE OF THIS AGREEMENT, PLEASE CONSULT A LEGAL ATTORNEY IN YOUR JURISDICTION.

1. DEFINITIONS
The following words and terms, when used with this agreement, shall have the following meanings, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise.

Online Casino Crown Solution Limited’s internet gaming system on the Website and related services and gaming activities as offered and listed at www.carnivalcasino.com including but not limited to, online casino and/or online bingo and/or Online Casino and/or any other games, where applicable;

Or even the 'About us' pages

Carnival Casino is owned and operated by Crown Solution Gaming Ltd,
a registered company located in Antigua.

and

Joyland Casino is owned and operated by Crown Solution Gaming Ltd.,
a registered company located in Antigua.

It's the same company, same liabilities, same profits, etc.


also

Monaco Gold Casino is owned and operated by Crown Solution Gaming Ltd.,
a registered company located in Antigua.

and

Club Dice Casino is owned and operated by Crown Solution Gaming Ltd.,
a registered company located in Antigua.

plus USA casino & New York casino

Originally Posted by JohnGalt

If we were talking about the carnival group they probably could pay out.

Evidently we are.