Joyland Casino: Problem withdrawal request

[freakin]

Originally Posted by thelawnet

Yeah right. What a lot of rubbish. If you

(a) refuse to correspond by email, but contact people by phone to avoid creating a paper trail
and
(b) confiscate everyone's winnings

who is happy about that?

Answer: Joyland

Freakin

[casinomike]

I just want to state once again, that I refuse to believe Joyland's statement that they had a computer glitch

we have had reports that their comp system was in place for up to a week. Also several players confirmed they slightly adjusted the comp rate at least once and left it that way for some hours.

It is obvious to me, that this was not a glitch. casino management on the fly, oops we were too generous with our promotion : sweep it under the rug and confiscate winnings and destroy all the records, lock out accounts
result: short term small profit. long term, reputation destroyed, closed casino etc

[TrixSlice]

Originally Posted by 120sam

How's this for an idea - we all get spam from playtech casinos right? I keep getting stuff from Club Dice etc anyway. How about every time you get some playtech casino spam, you click on reply, copy a link to this thread, and click on send. If we all do it they'll get the message pretty quickly, and other playtech casinos will start putting pressure on playtech to sort out Joyland.

I actually think this is a good idea. If people get other PlayTech casinos to become aware of Joylands mess, maybe they can lend some pressure? It's amazing that now this thread shows up as top hit on a search for 'joyland casino'. Maybe that'll wake 'em up. To me, it seems like they must have made a lot of money to not want to resolve this. They must have raked in a lot more cash then ever before. This sickens me. Blah.

[dubs22]

"The main issue revolves around the fact that there was a mismatch in the way comp points were calculated.
We reviewed the players who played at Joyland Casino and the Casino management decided to cut the winnings of players who were seen to be abusers of the system. These "abusers" were the people who saw the failure in the system and played non-risky games in order to accumulate as many comp points as possible. Joyland's fraud department then refunded the initial deposits of all those players and decided to call each one of them personally."

Weighing in on the non-risky comment, if you recall my initial post in this thread, I also deposited and was betting 40 GBP/spin (about $70) on Video Poker, and what happened to me followed the "no-risk abuser" pattern as posted by the Joyland casino rep: several thousand in winnings voided and deposit returned.

If this is indeed the entire story, than I personally would like my entire cashout because I did not play low-risk wagers to accumlate comp points - and I'm sure there are more in the same situation (a few posted in front of me.)

I am also tired of writing/calling customer service and receiving a form reply.

[freakin]

I think a decent definition of low-risk is needed. I can understand someone betting red/black in roulette or bank/player in baccarrat being considered a low-risk wagerer, but $100/hand in VP? Honestly. The standard deviation for that has to be huge. Regardless, using low-risk wagers is not grounds for stealing winnings. If a player complied with the T&C, they need to be paid. And saying "We can do what we feel like cause we said we could in the T&C" is always bad.

I wasn't affected by this problem, but it is a huge black mark to me for both Playtech and Crown Solutions. I have had nothing but positive experiences from both up until this point. I don't want to go near a playtech until Joyland pays out this money.

Count me in on a total Playtech boycott.

Freakin

[Aindreas_Daoc]

I recieved the same "stock" e-mail from Joyland today. What a crock.

In my opinion, the comp point issue was not a "technical glitch". A technical glitch is when say, the comp page says 100 points = $1, but instead pays you $5. In fact the comp system paid out exactly as they set it. My feeling is that they were too generous with their promotion, and after a week or so finally realized this. However, instead of admitting this, they started taking money and blaming a non-existant technical glitch.

What is undisputable is that their action is disgusting. There should be no transaction log alterations. Players should be paid their winnings, and quite possibly their comps as well. At the very minimum they should apologize for their ill-thought out promotion and offer some compensation. Seizing people's money without any explanation or justification is unacceptable.

It appears that the only people who were "abusive" and were playing with "no-risk" is Joyland themselves.

[Pinababy69]

What is undisputable is that their action is disgusting. There should be no transaction log alterations.

I couldn't agree more. Even though this issue did not affect me directly, I am in the process of composing a form letter to send to all Playtech casinos that I currently hold an active account at, which will include a link to this thread. I am going to ask that all my accounts be closed, as I can no longer play at any casino supported by a software supplier that allows player transactions to be "erased." And I'd like to know why the rep that posted here just totally skipped that issue. I'd like to see someone log into Playcheck thru Micro and find no record of any play or into Cashcheck and have their withdrawal history wiped clean. Anyone here think they would get away with that?

[scrollock]

as mentioned earlier in the thread, this type of situation sometimes occurs with sportsbook and the in the UK a rule called palpable error is used.

there are 2 scenarios

a) the odds of a selection are 1/100 but are inputted as 100/1

b) the odds of a selection are considered to be 100/1 by others but are priced up by one firm as 150/1.

the palpable error rule is a sensible rule, because without it in case a) above the firm would go bankrupt all because of some lowly paid input operator making a typo. In this day and age of the internet typos will happen all the time, plus any reasonable person would realise that this is a mistake.

however you couldn't use it in case b) because a DECISION WAS TAKEN to give that price, and if one firm gives the best price they cant invoke this rule because they have found they have been more generous than other firms or otherwise then the next best price firm would then claim they offered the biggest price and declare their price void, and then the next firm.

to sum up you cant use it in b) because an odds complier would just declare all of his wrong calls void with the use of hindsight

Although this deals with sportsbooks, the principle of what is a fair regarding what is a reasonable and unreasonable mistake should still apply.

on first looks i would rule this problem with joyland a scenario a) situation above as the comp points were overly generous and it would appear at first glance that this is a typo type error by an operator.

however as the facts have begun to emerge in the thread it appears that this is definitly not the case. for example when it was realised that there was a problem with the comp points they were changed from a 100 to a $1 to 150 to a $1. if it had been a typo then surely it would have been changed to a 1000 a $.

the fact that it was changed to 150 shows not only was it not a typo, but also that the management had called the situation wrong because they had made the same mistake TWICE as the comp system still made some of the games advantageous to a shrewd player.

the fact they changed it to 150, shows that they realised they had made a mistake with the comp points, however it does indicate that the INTENTION was for them to be a 100 to the $ because the difference between 100 & 150 is not that much, its not as if we are talking factors of 10 or greater.

so its quite clear that this is no typo and that the promo manager made a bad call just like an odds compilers sometimes do.

on reflection the generousity of their mistake is not that great either, as i gather that the points mistake gave the shrewd player a H.A. in his favour of appox 4%, well i can go and sign upto at plenty of casinos that when the bonus is taken into account i will have a H.A. in my favour in excess of this. its hardly a cash machine spitting out money type of mistake.

the advatage for the player was 4%, this is similar to the % for some of the games, especially slots, so although some are arguing that the casino was giving money away, the fact is that if you apply the same logic to the player then he should be able to void all of his play every time he plays at a casino. the casino does not have a divine right to have the house advantage on their side. the only reason why they do have the house advantage on their side is because they provide the games, so when their games and software give a advantage to the player they should swallow it.

[TeddyFSB]

Originally Posted by liatk

We reviewed the players who played at Joyland Casino and the Casino management decided to cut the winnings of players who were seen to be abusers of the system. These "abusers" were the people who saw the failure in the system and played non-risky games in order to accumulate as many comp points as possible.

No you didn't. You haven't given any evidence that you reviewed any of the players. You simply took the people who won and cut their winnings. That's not called reviewing players. There are now 15 or 20 players in this thread none of whom played non-risky games. All of this is verifiable by checking playing records, which you are now erasing? This thread might give a wrong impression that everybody (except for TheBloke and me) won. Of course, this is not the case. The people who lost their deposits to you are not posting in this thread in large numbers. It's not reasonable for them to expect you to return their deposits back. Just like it's unreasonable for you to confiscate winnings.

All players that play at Joyland Casino have to agree with the terms and conditions prior to playing where it states that the Casino Management is able to make decisions such as this. If you wish to re-read these terms and conditions please see http://www.joylandcasino.com/en/terms.html.

All players we have managed to reach over the phone were pleased, satisfied and full of understanding.

If I haven't had to deal with your casino already, I would suspect that someone opened a gimmick account under your name to post this. WHAT A JOKE

[JohnGalt]

Originally Posted by scrollock

on reflection the generousity of their mistake is not that great either, as i gather that the points mistake gave the shrewd player a H.A. in his favour of appox 4%, well i can go and sign upto at plenty of casinos that when the bonus is taken into account i will have a H.A. in my favour in excess of this. its hardly a cash machine spitting out money type of mistake.

the advatage for the player was 4%, this is similar to the % for some of the games, especially slots, so although some are arguing that the casino was giving money away, the fact is that if you apply the same logic to the player then he should be able to void all of his play every time he plays at a casino. the casino does not have a divine right to have the house advantage on their side. the only reason why they do have the house advantage on their side is because they provide the games, so when their games and software give a advantage to the player they should swallow it.

I have to say I mostly agree with your post, and with the posts of everyone else recently. Joyland's response is total BS. However, I also have to say this part of your post is totally wrong.

The reality is that you can't sign up for plenty of places and have the bonus end up a greater than 4% advantage for you. That corresponds to a very low wagering requirement, which is never offered on a cashable bonus these days. So not only is it a bigger advantage than the best bonuses, but it's also completely unlimited. It's equivalent to having the bonus on a deposit of any size, unlimited deposits. You don't think that's overly generous?

When you play slots, the house can't win more than you buy in for, but when you play with a 4% advantage you can take all the casino's money. As I mentioned earlier, in a week's time with a 4% advantage I could easily make a million dollars. So really, it is a cash machine spitting out money type of mistake.

That said, if it was a POLICY mistake, as opposed to some manual error (b as opposed to a in your example) then they should pay up and that's that.