Feedback Spinsvilla Warning : is 5x WR on flat deposits excessive?

[maxd]

See Spinsvilla: excessive demands on basic deposits.

Discuss here.

 

[maxd]

So yeah, apparently there are Accredited casinos doing the same 5x WR on flat deposits. Still sucks IMO but I'm looking into it.

 

[RichyJ75]

So let me get this right, if I deposit £100 without any bonus and on my first spin I win say £300, I can't withdraw it until I have wagered at least £500?

If so, that just seems so wrong. Surely they can't just withhold the players money insisting they carry on playing it through?

 

[maxd]

Yup, that's what they're saying in the Terms, your WR would be 500.

 

[trancemonkey]

Yup, that's what they're saying in the Terms, your WR would be 500.

Why would ANYONE play there?! They would probably argue "money laundering" or something, but that's just rubbish.
Take your money elsewhere...

EDIT: Turns out they DO quote AML in their T's & C's. This is a blatant lie - anyone who plays there is wasting their time and money.
Also, i notice in the other thread that a 1x wagering requirement is alive and kicking on some casinos - the justification is that they have costs etc... I'm sorry, but i see no justification for this - the RTP of the games (i.e house edge) pays for the casino. If you're a good casino, with good games, then engagement and retention of players is how you pay for your costs...

 

[trancemonkey]

The T's and C's state this (written in very bad English for a co.uk site...)

Insufficient play: In case if the level of deposits and withdrawals fail to correspond to a sufficient volume of play (5X of deposit), Management may decide to levy applicable charges against a player’s account. The player is then responsible for paying the applicable charges, either by demand or in case sufficient funds exists in the player’s account then the applicable charges would be debited from the account. A player’s original deposit amount, subject to charges, would be refunded (Payment payout fees £5 + 5% Processing fees). The amount will be forfeited in case of self-exclusion/ account closure (Does not apply to ‘Take a break’).
A wagering requirement of 5X of the deposit is applicable, in case a player is making a deposit.

Very odd, very dodgy...

They also have horrendous withdrawal terms which limit withdrawals if you win more than 2x your lifetime deposits:

The minimum withdrawal amount is £10.
The maximum withdrawal amount is £1500 per week and £3000 per month for all games. In the case of you winning a Slots Progressive Jackpot, you will be paid £10,000 each week.
Players who withdraw a sum of money that is 2 times or more greater than their lifetime deposits across the site will only be able to withdraw their winnings at a sum of £1000 per week. The remaining amount will be placed back in the player's account until such time that they are eligible for a further withdrawal. This clause will only be applied at the discretion of casino management. All Progressive wins are exempt from this clause.

 

[maxd]

EDIT: Turns out they DO quote AML in their T's & C's. ...

Yes, that was pretty much the point of the Warning that this thread is based on.

 

[The Viking]

not just them got a mail from Betat few months back were my withdrawal was denied
was told i had to wager the deposit 5x before i could withdraw, i needed few bux more in wager

 

[Jono777]

Pm'ed Max with a list of potential places who have this term, Betat being one of them.

I do however think they'd take a flexible/discretional stance once they saw the player was genuine.

Only my opinion but think its more in place as a protection from 'Hit and Run' syndicates than AML.

 

[The Dude]

It may be worth getting input from the operators because this may be a jurisdictional requirement. I know that casinos have had 1x WR for flat deposits in the past, but I can't remember if this this was dictated via their licensing agreements. I haven't heard of 5x before though.

 

[jetset]

Why would ANYONE play there?! They would probably argue "money laundering" or something, but that's just rubbish.
Take your money elsewhere...

EDIT: Turns out they DO quote AML in their T's & C's. This is a blatant lie - anyone who plays there is wasting their time and money.
Also, i notice in the other thread that a 1x wagering requirement is alive and kicking on some casinos - the justification is that they have costs etc... I'm sorry, but i see no justification for this - the RTP of the games (i.e house edge) pays for the casino. If you're a good casino, with good games, then engagement and retention of players is how you pay for your costs...

My thoughts exactly...and good on Max for checking around the jurisdictions to confirm that this AML claim by the operator is BS.

Given all of this and the other tightwad T&Cs trancemonkey has flagged above, this outfit Spinsvilla looks a good one to swerve around for gamblers.

 

[dunover]

It's straight in the pit anyway for not paying progressives in one go, same as those vile Playtake casinos do.

 

[Jono777]

Operated by Cozy Games say no more, terrible reputation across their bingo and slots network.

Seems MG will contract to anyone these days

 

[Simmo!]

1x used to be a common money laundering thing just to stop criminals putting large amounts in, playing one or two hands then withdrawing it so I get that but 5x is somewhat excessive. No way I'd play somewhere with that term.

 

[brianmon]

I'd also say, if there are any CM accredited casino with 5x wagering of a cash deposit. They should be removed from the accreditation list.

It's just a dishonest and/or desperate attempt to claw back as much of any winnings, a player might have been lucky enough to get.

They're either greedy or have financial problems.

The thing I've never understood about this money laundering business, is if a casino insists that winnings are paid via the same method as the deposit. Which most, if not all the decent ones do.
How can you launder money?

 

[RichyJ75]

I'd also say, if there are any CM accredited casino with 5x wagering of a cash deposit. They should be removed from the accreditation list.

It's just a dishonest and/or desperate attempt to claw back as much of any winnings, a player might have been lucky enough to get.

They're either greedy or have financial problems.

The thing I've never understood about this money laundering business, is if a casino insists that winnings are paid via the same method as the deposit. Which most, if not all the decent ones do.
How can you launder money?

I agree.

I would also like to add that if any financial institution (namely any practice which involves holding money for a third party - casinos, solicitors, accountants, etc) suspects infringement of money laundering, they are duty bound to inform the police or other governing body since money laundering is a criminal activity. It is not down to that party to try and profit from it using bogus and fraudulent claims in their T&C's!!

 

[dunover]

This again comes back to inadequate provisions in the various Licensing Authority rules. We know from recent experience that woolly wording in both the TAB/SE rules has left loopholes for certain casinos to exploit, and now we have this 5x turnover bullcrap - because they can choose to interpret rules in a way that benefits them, i.e. the more a deposit is turned over, the more £ x their 3-4% edge is accrued by the casino in the long term.

As far as I know there exists NO rule anywhere specifying a casino must get the player to turn over a cash-only deposit 1x let alone 5x.

The day when the LA's are forced to listen and interact with the player community rather than being subservient bitches for the casinos won't be a day too soon. It has happened in the Financial Services and Advertising industries and it WILL happen in the gambling one eventually.

There will come a day when all RG settings are stipulated instant and automated (in other words the pathetic terms will be unequivocal about this!) and pending periods will be abolished and licensees must cross-reference players even if using white labels under their license.

I was even considering getting a 100,000 signature petition going so the govt. is forced to debate the role of the UKGC and make it consumer-friendly.

 

[Jono777]

I was even considering getting a 100,000 signature petition going so the govt. is forced to debate the role of the UKGC and make it consumer-friendly.

Go for it, you'll get a good percentage of that from here and our 'none CM' contacts to start you off.

 

[Nicola]

I would certainly sign that

In my book, Cozygames are as bad as 888/Cassava these days. New site week after week and crappy terms to catch unexpecting punters.

 

[dougbet1]

Just want to be clear here. The casino does envoke the table game rules to none deposit bonuses as well. So if you want to wager on blackjack you essentially have to wager your non-deposit bonus 50 times.

This was not a CS error, it was built in to their automated wagering system.

 

[The Dude]

The minimum withdrawal amount is £10.
The maximum withdrawal amount is £1500 per week and £3000 per month for all games. In the case of you winning a Slots Progressive Jackpot, you will be paid £10,000 each week.
Players who withdraw a sum of money that is 2 times or more greater than their lifetime deposits across the site will only be able to withdraw their winnings at a sum of £1000 per week. The remaining amount will be placed back in the player's account until such time that they are eligible for a further withdrawal. This clause will only be applied at the discretion of casino management. All Progressive wins are exempt from this clause...

Rogue casino term. Into the pit they go...

 

[maxd]

FWIW I've heard from Malta and Isle of Man (indirectly) on this, no such "requirement". Also had it confirmed by two respected "no bonus" operators that they've never heard of such a thing.

Still need to get confirmation that the UKGC has nothing of the sort on their books but at this point I think it's safe to say that these so-called "AML requirements" are a synonym for "if you believe this BS then we're happy to take your money".

 

[maxd]

Just posted this over in the Warning:

Ok, the good folks at the MGA have pointed me to the "4th AML Directive" -- formally D

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

-- which appears to be the guiding document for matters of this nature.

Looking through that I find the following in Chapter 1, Section 1, Article 2:

Member States shall require that the total turnover of the financial activity does not exceed a threshold which must be sufficiently low.

The Directive also allows operators to go beyond the basic threshold and apply more stringent procedures if they see fit:

Article 5 : Member States may adopt or retain in force stricter provisions in the field covered by this Directive to prevent money laundering and terrorist financing, within the limits of Union law.

It should also be noted that the Directive gives operators the freedom to completely waive such procedures where they deem the case to be "low risk" insofar as money laundering goes.

In other words the operators have a lot of latitude: everything from waiving turnover requirements completely to applying requirements beyond the basic threshold.

It's important to keep in mind that the underlying goal of all of this is the detection, assessment and prevention of criminal money laundering and the financing of terrorist activity. Your average player deposit -- especially if they later withdraw back to the same source -- hardly qualifies as either and as such it's hard to imagine how punitive procedures as a matter of course are justified. And given that the casino using such punitive practices across the board will certainly profit from said practices I'd say that any attempt to justify should be seen for what it is: self-serving BS.

And that takes us right back to the beginning IMO: 1x turnover is totally reasonable; 5x turnover (or worse) is not at all reasonable and is certainly not a "requirement" of AML guidelines.

Vote with your wallets folks: if a casino is cramping your style insofar as minimum turnover of no-bonus deposits goes then tell them so, pull your money and find some place that is not padding its bottom line with what are essentially Terms-enforced losses.

 

[chiya]

In the case of you winning a Slots Progressive Jackpot, you will be paid £10,000 each week.[/B]

Is that even allowed? The jackpot money is pooled and paid out from all of the casinos that have that slot up right now, right? Or something along those lines anyway. So if you win 5M on Mega Moolah, the casino just takes that as a "loan" for themselves and pays you out 10k a week? Like wtf? You'd have to wait ten years to even get the full sum? In ten years, the casino might not even be operational anymore.

 

[trancemonkey]

Is that even allowed? The jackpot money is pooled and paid out from all of the casinos that have that slot up right now, right? Or something along those lines anyway. So if you win 5M on Mega Moolah, the casino just takes that as a "loan" for themselves and pays you out 10k a week? Like wtf? You'd have to wait ten years to even get the full sum? In ten years, the casino might not even be operational anymore.

I'm not sure what the laws are around this, so i can't comment... but the casino gets the money directly from the games provider for the really big progressives, so they would get the £5m and then basically keep it... hardly seems fair does it?! Lots of the T's and C's on this site are extremely dodgy...

Like if you wager your money in a low risk way, they will just take it off you.

 

[geordiecolin]

I'm not sure what the laws are around this, so i can't comment... but the casino gets the money directly from the games provider for the really big progressives, so they would get the £5m and then basically keep it... hardly seems fair does it?! Lots of the T's and C's on this site are extremely dodgy...

Like if you wager your money in a low risk way, they will just take it off you.

Having countess sister casino's must increase the odds of one of them having a customer winning a progressive massively. Once that happens then what is to stop that casino going out of business and the player having no recourse in getting their millions? Dodgy feckers!

 

[The Dude]

Is that even allowed? The jackpot money is pooled and paid out from all of the casinos that have that slot up right now, right? Or something along those lines anyway. So if you win 5M on Mega Moolah, the casino just takes that as a "loan" for themselves and pays you out 10k a week? Like wtf? You'd have to wait ten years to even get the full sum? In ten years, the casino might not even be operational anymore.

That is a rogue term. Any casino that piece-meals payments of progressive jackpot like that gets a fast-track ticket to the rogue pit.

 

[The Dude]

Jeesus! cozypartners.com has over 50 properties!!

That's a lot of rogueness.

 

[RichyJ75]

That is a rogue term. Any casino that piece-meals payments of progressive jackpot like that gets a fast-track ticket to the rogue pit.

Has there ever been a case where a player has taken the casino to court in order to get a progressive jackpot paid to them in one payment when they have won it? As mentioned before, the progressive jackpot amount is paid to the casino, who then drip feeds it to the player when won. Not so great if you win say £5m and casino terms state they will pay it at £5,000 per month! Just because it is in their T&C's, surely doesn't make it legally enforceable.

 

[trancemonkey]

Jeesus! cozypartners.com has over 50 properties!!

That's a lot of rogueness.

Slap them all in there

 

[The Dude]

Has there ever been a case where a player has taken the casino to court in order to get a progressive jackpot paid to them in one payment when they have won it? As mentioned before, the progressive jackpot amount is paid to the casino, who then drip feeds it to the player when won. Not so great if you win say £5m and casino terms state they will pay it at £5,000 per month! Just because it is in their T&C's, surely doesn't make it legally enforceable.

It's happened where a casino kept half of the progressive win because the player didn't want to wait 38 years to be paid:
https://www.casinomeister.com/gambling-news/playtech-progressive-jackpots-scandal/

A black mark on this industry that no one gives a shit about. Believe me, I've tried to get people to notice this.

Just checking out some of their sister sites (Bingo), here is a doosey

mummiesbingo.com

The maximum weekly withdrawal limit is £300 for all games. In the case of you winning a bingo or slots progressive jackpot, you will be paid £1,000 each week.

And this is licensed by the UKGC and IOM.

 

[The Dude]

Slap them all in there

Actually, CasinoCity lists 115 of them.

 

[lotusch]

The maximum weekly withdrawal limit is £300 for all games. In the case of you winning a bingo or slots progressive jackpot, you will be paid £1,000 each week.

And places like this have actually active players?

 

[The Dude]

And places like this have actually active players?

These sites are targeted towards bingo players who I guess are our grannies. Low rollers. But it is still predatory. If you want to call yourself a casino or bingo room, act like one.

 

[Valhalla]

The maximum weekly withdrawal limit is £300 for all games. In the case of you winning a bingo or slots progressive jackpot, you will be paid £1,000 each week.

And this is licensed by the UKGC and IOM.

I don't think I've ever in all my years seen a withdrawal limit set so low. I bet they would happily take deposits 10x that much without so much as saying a word.
It's pretty sad to think of all the poor punters out there who just assume these casinos/bingo sites are legitimate and trustworthy. More people need to read Casinomeister, sheesh.


Had a look myself and their entire T&C's list reads like a "how to" for Rogue operations.

 

[Brian Wylie]

Oh Cozy games.
Won loads of money from these guys.
It got so bad they closed all my accounts stating you cannot have multiple accounts across there network although there FAQ's state otherwise and I had multiple withdraws approved by the same person within minutes of each other.

Numerous times they would quote bs t&c's which I learnt from, so in the end they closed all my accounts.
The reason I kept playing there was I would withdraw from £30 to £150 at least 50% of the time all from £5 or £10 using the bonuses.
I just learnt how to maximise my returns

 

[maxd]

FTR I have received the following from someone claiming to represent the casino. Bryan will handle the process of getting this person the proper credentials but in the meantime I've offered to add their comments here:

Hi,

I notice that you are the player Arbitration manager on Casinomeister?

I am trying to reply to the thread : https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...la-warning-5x-wr-flat-deposits-excessive.html .

I am the new marketing manager of this brand, and I want to update everyone on this forum, that we do not have the 5x wagering terms on the deposit amount.

We only have 1x wagering on the deposit amount if no bonus is opted. Also, if a player wants to withdraw the deposit an does not want to wager 1x, then player can withdraw and only 5% processing charges would apply.

Outdated URL (Invalid)

So I would request you to make the changes the necessary changes to the thread here. I am not able to reply as somehow the forum is not letting me to post.

Thanking you,
Spinsvilla Team

 

[geordiecolin]

These sites are targeted towards bingo players who I guess are our grannies. Low rollers. But it is still predatory. If you want to call yourself a casino or bingo room, act like one.

As if most Grannies have 34 years in order to collect their full progressive jackpot win in drips. Then what happens to their winning increments when they die? Does the Casino keep it?

 

[thr0b]

Old thread I know, but I do like the Cozy slots. Their terms seem to have got better since they got purchased last year. I was heartily amazed to get a withdrawal approved and in my Paypal account in less than 24 hours a few weeks back.

Tip: Hot Habanero turns up its bonus round surprisingly often. To the extent that a spin at £7.50 can very easily turn into a few hundred quid. And I've made lots from their bonuses; the wagering seems to be much more reliable and setup properly now.

 

[dunover]

As if most Grannies have 34 years in order to collect their full progressive jackpot win in drips. Then what happens to their winning increments when they die? Does the Casino keep it?

LOL...I believe the executors and trustees of the estate could claim the remaining payments.