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Thread: SUSPENSION OF eCOGRA SEALS

  1. #31
    jetset's Avatar
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    Pretty subjective entries, I would opine - it would be interesting to know who submitted the Wikipedia piece for example, which perhaps needs more balance and a full reference to the facts - and the outcomes.

    What most people unfortunately do not understand (or choose not to believe because they are so consumed by the initial funding) is that those same competing companies isolated themselves from the operational conduct of the organisation by introducing an independent board of experienced outside business people - and I'll cut 'n paste from the eCOGRA release on these guys for your convenience:

    "These directors are Bill Galston, OBE, retired Chief Inspector for the Gaming Board of Great Britain; Bill Henbrey, former head of gaming services at leading international accounting firm BDO; Frank Catania, former Assistant Attorney General and Director of New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement and Michael Hirst, OBE, a former board member of Ladbroke Group Plc, and formerly Chairman and CEO of Hilton International."

    These are hardly corrupt or docile men and have proved that they have minds of their own as well as industry, business and legal savvy.

    In addition to these, but not involved in operational matters, each of the original funding companies has one seat on the full board which meets I think twice a year (that's where John Anderson's seat comes in - he was CEO of Virtual Holdings at the time and for all I know has been replaced by his successor Gigi Levy) MGS has one and Ongame has one - a total of 3 against the independent 4.

    This enables the independent directors who are actually calling the shots to have direct access at all times to senior and knowledgeable executives in the companies which power the eCOGRA seal operators, but does not interfere with their responsibility for the overall running of the organisation and the compliance of operators (who voluntarily commit to the seal system at some expense in terms of time and staff involvement - not annual payments.)

    The CEO and his London-based staff reports to the independent directors on all day-to-day operational issues. This is all information available on the website.

    I waffled on about actions and perceptions earlier on, and I will freely concede that there have been a few errors of judgement, against which I railed along with others on the message boards. These errors are continuously regurgitated to discredit eCOGRA, conveniently forgetting that Beveridge as CEO has always been prepared to hear an appeal and is not shy to reverse a decision if he believes originally it was wrong.

    Apparently forgotten, too are the hundreds of cases over the past five years where players have been assisted, not to mention other significant initiatives in which eCOGRA has become involved in the field of standards, testing and monitoring, responsible gambling codes and training and introducing best business practices.

    For me, an indicator that this outfit does have a level of player credibility is the fact that players go there with disputes, or are sent there by experienced players.

    And distinct from most other outfits, their complaints are openly acknowledged and generally receive prompt and courteous attention - in days rather than weeks or months.

    Leading on from that is another indicator of generally fair dealing for the player - the stats put out periodically by the FGA in open regular reports on the complaints she has handled against seal casinos. There aren't too many organisations that do that, either.

    Around about the middle of last year was the last one I can recall, and if memory serves me correctly over half the complaints were decided for the player, and the overall average number of complaints per seal casino per month was less than one half of one percent.

    By any reckoning that's a pretty good record for 120 operational units that are amongst the best established and busiest on the Internet, carrying out millions of transactions daily for tens of thousands of players.

    <sigh> I promised myself that I was not going to again get involved in these time consuming and long-winded attempts to offer an alternative perspective on eCOGRA to often poorly-informed criticism.

    Unfortunately, I can't just sit back and watch an organisation that is actually trying to help the player community slagged off every time it is mentioned, with scant recognition for its contributions to a better and hopefully more player-sensitive industry.

    There are always going to be contentious issues and some where the truth is manipulated on the player as well as operator side. There will undoubtedly also be occasions in the future where there is disagreement on decisions, and that's a good thing that keeps everyone on their toes if it is debated intelligently and publicised. It is also a truism that the bad usually gets more mileage and attention than the good.

    But it's important - and only fair - to recognise the good too; the many cases where a fair result is brokered for the player or diplomatic pressure applied without fanfare or credit (the 'Meister will have experience of that LOL!) Or improvements in safety and fairness.

    On balance I personally believe eCOGRA is doing a lot more good than harm, and I'm prepared to say so - not always a popular move when a good old slagging fest is going on, LOL!

    But as much as most of us would like to see an all-powerful, totally externalised regulator/s for online gambling, that is not presently a force in the industry, so other moderating influences are needed.

    ECOGRA is not a government appointed agency with massive budgets and unlimited power to take businesses down overnight (and yes, eCOGRA is a registered non-profit organisation, Gary!)

    But it is nevertheless improving many aspects of online gambling that impact on players, and that needs to be at the very least acknowledged.

    When I see some of the derogatory remarks made in this and other threads (example: "eCOGRA is a puppet of Microgaming") I wonder how difficult it must be for those people in London to remain motivated and determined.
    jetset

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  3. #32
    Casino Action is offline Dormant account
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    Hi All

    Please accept our apologies for the delay in our response regarding this matter.

    We have been in discussions with eCogra and these purely administrative issues will be resolved shortly. We had delayed posting as we thought this would have been resolved in 24hrs, but as I am sure most of you know these kind of things tend to take longer than you would expect.

    In no way has our honesty, integrity or customer service been questioned and our reputation speaks for itself!

    We are expecting our eCogra seals will be reinstated very soon, but in the meantime it is business as usual.

    Thank you for all the messages of support recently from a lot of well respected affiliates in the industry. (You know who you are!)

    Jon
    CPS

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casino Action View Post
    Hi All

    Please accept our apologies for the delay in our response regarding this matter.

    We have been in discussions with eCogra and these purely administrative issues will be resolved shortly. We had delayed posting as we thought this would have been resolved in 24hrs, but as I am sure most of you know these kind of things tend to take longer than you would expect.

    In no way has our honesty, integrity or customer service been questioned and our reputation speaks for itself!

    We are expecting our eCogra seals will be reinstated very soon, but in the meantime it is business as usual.

    Thank you for all the messages of support recently from a lot of well respected affiliates in the industry. (You know who you are!)

    Jon
    CPS
    I thought this was an "administrative issue", however this is a highly unusual action for eCogra to take, certainly when there have been NO SIGNS AT ALL, of anything going wrong. Although it might have taken only 24 hours, eCogra released this into the public domain in time for the weekend, so the informed community operated in a vacuum of information until now, and the speculation was that the issues had to have been VERY serious for such draconian action by eCogra, where the norm is that they remove seals AFTER problems become public, and complaints made.
    As for the tournament, there was a delay in updating the scoreboard, but once fixed, it clearly showed that players were not at all bothered by the news, and competed as per normal. I cautiously worked up a prize from Thursday Thunder to £200, and cashed out at £100, and in doing so proved that Neteller instant payments were running smoothly, so no problems there with withdrawals, probably the thing that most worries players. I also won another £100 from the tournament, and this was credited in the normal time frame.

    It would certainly help to at some stage clarify what eCogra found so worrying to warrant a very public suspension of the seal, even if for only a couple of days, and let players judge for themselves whether they feel eCogra overreacted in the circumstances, not something eCogra has been known for in the past when it comes to revoking seals. The last incident was with the Jackpot Factory, and it took eCogra quite some time to get to the stage of suspending the seals, first giving the group numerous chances to clean up the mess. This gives the impression that whatever the problem was, it was more serious than the very public issue that Jackpot Factory got itself involved in.
    Empty Fruities Astern Capt'n
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  7. #34
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    I think that everyone is in a very difficult situation concerning this one. In the past, when casinos have had their eCOGRA membership suspended or yanked, these incidents were very much public player related issues. Suspension was the result of what the players were experiencing.

    Here we have the indication that an administrative issue has occurred that is obviously a very serious one. It may not be something that directly affects players, but it may something that would affect them in the long run. To allow a casino (that is not meeting a standard) to display a seal could be construed as irresponsible on eCOGRA's part - even though a "fix" may be on the horizon. Perhaps the reasons for not itemizing the violations is to give the casino group time to fix what is broken with a minimal amount of public bashings.

    I'm a patient guy and will wait this out to see what happens in the next few days.
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  8. #35
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    Doesn't Ecogra charge these casinos a fee to be involved in there program and in order to display their seal?

  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casino Action View Post
    Hi All

    Please accept our apologies for the delay in our response regarding this matter.

    We have been in discussions with eCogra and these purely administrative issues will be resolved shortly. We had delayed posting as we thought this would have been resolved in 24hrs, but as I am sure most of you know these kind of things tend to take longer than you would expect.

    In no way has our honesty, integrity or customer service been questioned and our reputation speaks for itself!

    We are expecting our eCogra seals will be reinstated very soon, but in the meantime it is business as usual.

    Thank you for all the messages of support recently from a lot of well respected affiliates in the industry. (You know who you are!)

    Jon
    CPS
    I appreciate the posting that it's business as usual, but I would be more reserved until whatever the matter is - is cleared up.

    I'm holding back making any decisions until more information is provided through normal chains. I hope that the casino and/or eCOGRA will be in the position to present findings or ensure that players are indeed in good hands within the next day or two. Removal of these seals is a very serious matter and should not be taken lightly.

    Players and affiliates need to be assured that business is really "as usual". I'd hate to see a comment like that haunt you if it is not.
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  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by lots0 View Post
    Doesn't Ecogra charge these casinos a fee to be involved in there program and in order to display their seal?
    That's a given - they provide a service and the casinos pay for this.
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  12. #38
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    To be honest I never knew what to think about eCogra....especially after the Jackpot Factory case.
    Concerning the involment of 888 and MicroGaming, I always thought it was obvious.
    If you check the Director page on the actual website you'll only see 2 guys as non executive directors:
    http://www.ecogra.org/About.aspx?Page=2&OP=P
    Roger Raatgever and John Anderson (they should put Gigi Levy now)
    And it has always been like that (except that it was Virtual Holdings appearing instead of 888), check on Archive.org:
    http://web.archive.org/web/200310132.../directors.htm
    You can browse the different version of their website from this page:
    http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ecogra.org

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casinomeister View Post
    That's a given - they provide a service and the casinos pay for this.
    Well then maybe it was just non-payment of fees that got their seals jerked?

    I can't realy think of too many other "administrative" issues that would result in getting their seals pulled.... Except for non-payment of fees.

  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandre View Post
    To be honest I never knew what to think about eCogra....especially after the Jackpot Factory case.
    Concerning the involment of 888 and MicroGaming, I always thought it was obvious.
    If you check the Director page on the actual website you'll only see 2 guys as non executive directors:
    http://www.ecogra.org/About.aspx?Page=2&OP=P
    Roger Raatgever and John Anderson (they should put Gigi Levy now)
    And it has always been like that (except that it was Virtual Holdings appearing instead of 888), check on Archive.org:
    http://web.archive.org/web/200310132.../directors.htm
    You can browse the different version of their website from this page:
    http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ecogra.org
    Why is it that no one can get over the fact that this was an organization that was proposed and set up by a number of industry leaders? Who else would you have picked to begin an endeavour such as this? Shoe salesmen?

    It's a shame that some people feel that there are hidden motives for anyone trying to improve things in the i-Gaming Industry.
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