Finsoft/Spielo G2 Games Issue

[katie91]

Editor's note: this player opened an account at Betfred using another person's identity, knowingly gave incomplete information to those checking his gameplay, and resulted in misconstrued findings. There have also been reports that there is erroneous information in this thread that is causing many here to make misinformed assumptions - thus causing undo harm to a number of operators. It also appears that the OP is much more than a multi-account fraudster. New information and developments are presently evolving which members may need to take into account before drawing any conclusions.

I was attracted to Betfred casino as they are Casinomeister accredited and offered a good paytable on two of my favourite HiLo games: “Reel Deal” and “HiLo Gambler” under the “Games” section. Before depositing I played the games in play money mode for a few hours and they played like a completely fair game. However, on playing for real money my balance just kept going down and down and I never had a decent win to cashout. I asked my brother to take a look at my results as he studied maths at university. To be honest I don’t really understand much of the maths behind it so he has written the following:

-----

I have taken a look at the play history and it is pretty much undeniable that these games do not deal a fair game in real money mode. I have summarised the outcomes below:

Reel Deal

I have based this analysis on the selection “RED” as this is the bet placed most of the time. I have ordered the outcomes by frequency to highlight just how extreme the bias on the game is.

A BLACK 1713
9 BLACK 1705
5 BLACK 1698
3 BLACK 1667
7 BLACK 1659
Q BLACK 1632
4 RED 1591
K RED 1576
2 RED 1574
J RED 1572
6 RED 1486
8 RED 1483

Red: 9282, Black: 10074. p(Red) = 0.5. Probability of outcome this bad or worse: 0.000000006492 (1 in 154,028,680)

Hi Lo Gambler

2 586
3 559
4 513
5 554
6 515
7 476
8 535
9 556
J 569
Q 599
K 612
A 604

2-9: 4294, J-A: 2384. p(2-9) = 2/3. Probability of outcome this bad or worse: 0.000023817 (1 in 41,987)

The full play logs are available here:

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I have taken a screen recording of the entire play log directly from the website in case Betfred attempt to lock the account and deny these results are accurate.

I would invite others to analyse these results to confirm that these games are not fair and for Betfred to offer their logs for these two games to a third-party to analyse.

We then tested the play money games for several hours to see if they showed the same behaviour. We recorded all our sessions (and have about 9 hours of recorded play on file) until I realised there was actually a much simpler, conclusive proof that the play money mode cannot play in this way. If you inspect the request (using a tool like Firebug) you will see that the request made in fun play mode to the server is as follows:

Outdated URL (Invalid)
<funplayrequests signature="dca08939fa1049fde104cadbb034cd9fde10c9824dfe" site="BetFred" mode="FUN" game="REELDEAL">
<funplayrequest id="0" allowduplicates="true" count="1" rangehigh="12" rangelow="1" method="generaterandomnumbers" />
</funplayrequests>

The response comes back as follows and a “4” pops up on the screen (the low value of 1 corresponds to a 2 and 12 to an A):
<funplayrequests>
<randomnumbers id="0">3</randomnumbers>
</funplayrequests>

Note that this is a request to a shared random number generator and an identical request is made for every bet placed by the player in that session. This may seem unremarkable at first but notice that at no point in the request is the bet specified (Red/Black etc) – it is therefore impossible for the game to exhibit this behaviour in play money mode. The RNG simply has no knowledge of the bet placed (which is exactly how a fair game should behave). The RNG could be biased towards a particular number but it would be impossible to rig the game for every bet placed by the player as has been demonstrated for real play mode.

-----

Personally, I find the whole thing very misleading. The “Reel Deal” game looks like it offers good odds e.g. red/black both pay even money. It plays like a fair game in play money mode and even has a RTP of 100% listed in the help files.



It seems very unfair to rig the outcomes of a HiLo game depending on which bet the player has selected so that if a player picks 2-9, J-A will come up or if a player picks red then black will be more likely. I would never play at any casino or software that I knew had the ability to rig the games in a completely hidden way like this. Other casinos that want a lower payout for these games use a worse pay table which a player can see, for example at Bet365 Games the payout is 1.92x on the Red/Black outcomes rather than 2x.

This is not what I would have expected from an accredited casino and big high street name like Betfred. I hope that this was a genuine mistake by Betfred and that they will refund my losses on these rigged games. If not then this post will at least serve as a warning so other players know to avoid this casino.

 

[Seventh777]

Send this guy a private message - Eliot Jacobson, iirc he's the guy that looks into cases like this.

 

[katie91]

Thanks, I have sent him a message.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Very interesting indeed.

If I'm reading the numbers correctly, the RED/BLACK split in particular is pretty damning?

katie, can you keep us informed on this one please?

 

[dunover]

Please, when are players going to accept that for the protection of the casino, there are compensations in the software? You'll not hit a 'big' win until you have lost enough overall to pay for it, or most of it so you are slightly up overall. For example, ask the players who post the big IR Wild Desire screenshots when they got those wins? I'll bet they are long term players whose balances were overall very minus when they got the hits. I'd be interested to see someone truthfully say that within 1/2 hour of joining a casino they hit a massive win and were almost immediately in substantial profit. If things are truly random, this would happen quite frequently.

The OP has a case here as Chopley says. The stats over so may thousands of goes on a 'random' game shouldn't really look as bad for the player. The game is compensated to reach a certain RTP over a certain period - that much is clear. The weighting on certain cards is clearly fluid when certain choices are made.

 

[Tirilej]

Please, when are players going to accept that for the protection of the casino, there are compensations in the software? You'll not hit a 'big' win until you have lost enough overall to pay for it, or most of it so you are slightly up overall. For example, ask the players who post the big IR Wild Desire screenshots when they got those wins? I'll bet they are long term players whose balances were overall very minus when they got the hits. I'd be interested to see someone truthfully say that within 1/2 hour of joining a casino they hit a massive win and were almost immediately in substantial profit. If things are truly random, this would happen quite frequently.
.

What you're saying here is so stupid so I can't understand that you are playing at all.

Of course you can win immediately and stay a winner. I have done that and it will take some time if ever to pay that back.

 

[sapit222]

Please, when are players going to accept that for the protection of the casino, there are compensations in the software? You'll not hit a 'big' win until you have lost enough overall to pay for it, or most of it so you are slightly up overall. For example, ask the players who post the big IR Wild Desire screenshots when they got those wins? I'll bet they are long term players whose balances were overall very minus when they got the hits. I'd be interested to see someone truthfully say that within 1/2 hour of joining a casino they hit a massive win and were almost immediately in substantial profit. If things are truly random, this would happen quite frequently.

The OP has a case here as Chopley says. The stats over so may thousands of goes on a 'random' game shouldn't really look as bad for the player. The game is compensated to reach a certain RTP over a certain period - that much is clear. The weighting on certain cards is clearly fluid when certain choices are made.

Are you saying that the casino/software has a memory bank of the players gambling? That would be really crazy & there would be no reason to play at all then!

 

[dunover]

Not a memory bank, but an adjustment to RTP values. If you are significantly down or up, you will inevitably see an adjustment over the coming sessions. What I am saying is that it is rare to be significantly up (and I mean getting a really big hit) immediately after joining. I'm surmising that those big win screenshots virtually all occurred after the poster had been playing at the casino a while and was showing a net loss prior. If I am wrong then as tirlej says I am 'stupid'...lol

 

[dunover]

What you're saying here is so stupid so I can't understand that you are playing at all.

Of course you can win immediately and stay a winner. I have done that and it will take some time if ever to pay that back.

Is it? Like most gamblers you by impulse relate immediately or refer to an unusual triumph. I have done it too (once) and stayed well ahead because I closed the account. Compare that tirlej to all the times/accounts this didn't happen on. I am merely expressing an opinion based on my years' of experience and that of those I know.

 

[IanO]

I'd be interested to see someone truthfully say that within 1/2 hour of joining a casino they hit a massive win and were almost immediately in substantial profit. If things are truly random, this would happen quite frequently.

One example leaps to mind I'm sure you saw it yourself too. Recently we had a player make his second ever deposit, not a huge amount, start betting at 30p per spin and is now £5.8 million richer as a result. (me... shilly?! :O)

I get that you base your comments on your experience alone, which is fair enough, but as has been pointed out this is not how things are in reality, just how they may appear from your own perspective.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

TBH I think we're losing sight of the OP's point, which is the results of the specific game in question look seriously dodgy and not consistent with random behaviour.

 

[dunover]

One example leaps to mind I'm sure you saw it yourself too. Recently we had a player make his second ever deposit, not a huge amount, start betting at 30p per spin and is now £5.8 million richer as a result. (me... shilly?! :O)

I get that you base your comments on your experience alone, which is fair enough, but as has been pointed out this is not how things are in reality, just how they may appear from your own perspective.

Yes, I saw the thread about a large win on the bingo site you refer to, someone had a good Christmas lol.....
(I hope he didn't have to go through a 'pending w/d period)

Like I said though, in general the facts would bear this out to be highly unusual, sort of like 'My granny smoked 120 fags a day and drank 2 bottles of scotch and lived to 116' OK, she did , but then you could name 250,000 who did the same and didn't.......People become so influenced by the exceptions that sometimes their expectations and reality become distorted.

 

[dunover]

TBH I think we're losing sight of the OP's point, which is the results of the specific game in question look seriously dodgy and not consistent with random behaviour.

Yes, we (I) digress and await with interest developments on this particular software/game.

 

[Westland Bowl]

I believe this suspected manipulated outcomes is applicable to online blackjack games too and not only to Betfred's software brand.

 

[Balthazar]

This thread reminds me of this story, especially since hi-lo and the double feature are similar games.

 

[Nifty29]

I believe this suspected manipulated outcomes is applicable to online blackjack games too and not only to Betfred's software brand.

I assume you have some data to back this up, as usual?

I'm looking forward to Eliot investigating this hi lo game. Personally, I wouldn't play such a game, but regardless it should be 100% random.

 

[deucebag]

This game seems to be provided by a company called "Realistic Games" (the irony!) and they offer games through several UK bookies.

The saddest thing is there have been so many cases of proven rigged (non-random) games over the years, but the gaming industry don't suffer any consequences. There's really little incentive for gaming companies to offer fair (i.e. random) games under the current legal and regulatory environment. I'd like to see fines issued by regulatory authorities, or licenses yanked. Criminal prosecution for fraud should be considered (though proving intent could be a problem).

 

[katie91]

I had some requests to see the videos of the log files so I've uploaded them to my Dropbox. You can view them here:

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[Eliot Jacobson]

Greetings,

I am investigating this matter. After it is complete, I will make a public statement. I hope Betfred will take this investigation seriously.

Kind regards,

Eliot

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well at least no one's missing a Jaguar this time

 

[plasticnote]

an eye opener...

 

[Seventh777]

Thanks, I have sent him a message.

Yw, it's the least I could do after you put forward a highly detailed and well presented case. An aspect of card games that has been proven to be rigged after a thorough investigation, in at least one occurrence that I can think off.

I'm not sure just how big a sample is needed before making a true assessment, but, your brother provided a thorough analysis and posted the results in such a highly professional and expert manner, that it has warranted attention by Eliot himself .

 

[Westland Bowl]

I assume you have some data to back this up, as usual?

I'm looking forward to Eliot investigating this hi lo game. Personally, I wouldn't play such a game, but regardless it should be 100% random.

What kind of data? Usually I always read that millions of hands are necessary to sufficiently provide proof of non-randomness or that a game is not rigged. So, no, I do not have millions or even hundred thousand hands of my blackjack data nor am I likely to even get near that many hands in my lifetime. I don't think it is necessary to play that much before deciding it is rigged.

I guess the only way to show that a blackjack game is rigged if I use a betting strategy is to play a known RNG-only blackjack game for a few thousand hands using my betting strategy- then compare that play to my results on online casino blackjack games. I suspect most online casinos use player betting analysis algorithm in addition to a RNG to counter the player's betting strategy.

 

[vinylweatherman]

What kind of data? Usually I always read that millions of hands are necessary to sufficiently provide proof of non-randomness or that a game is not rigged. So, no, I do not have millions or even hundred thousand hands of my blackjack data nor am I likely to even get near that many hands in my lifetime. I don't think it is necessary to play that much before deciding it is rigged.

I guess the only way to show that a blackjack game is rigged if I use a betting strategy is to play a known RNG-only blackjack game for a few thousand hands using my betting strategy- then compare that play to my results on online casino blackjack games. I suspect most online casinos use player betting analysis algorithm in addition to a RNG to counter the player's betting strategy.

It depends on what is being looked for. If a game is severely "rigged", it doesn't take much data to demonstrate it. Eliot is likely to reach an initial view, and then try his own tests to produce a view than he feels confident about putting his name to.

The data itself didn't seem that striking in terms of the frequencies, but the additional factor of the very clear split between the colours, with the colour NOT being the subject of the bet appearing more frequently at ALL it's possible values than ANY value associated with the colour being staked.

The rules suggest that this is a zero house edge game, so over the long term nobody wins. It also seems to have no element of skill. Lastly, it seems very BORING to play more than a few hands, as the biggest return is 12x bet.

I do not understand why a zero edge game would be offered given that the operator can make no money on it overall, unless it is along the lines of the Betfair "zero lounge", designed to keep players playing in the hope that they will play games with a house edge. The "zero lounge" games also have an element of skill, so Betfair DO make money every time a player deviates from perfect strategy.

For the above game to work for the operator, there would have to be some element of strategy involved in achieving the 100% RTP.

If instead the outcomes are simply weighted in order to create the desired house edge, then it is a case of misrepresentation on the rules page, as the outcomes would NOT be "random" in the true sense, and the RTP would not be 100%.

 

[premiergaming]

Interesting case you have there. (cant wait for the verdict)

But..

Another case of check the casino , check the License and check the software provider.

 

[aceking123]

It depends on what is being looked for. If a game is severely "rigged", it doesn't take much data to demonstrate it. Eliot is likely to reach an initial view, and then try his own tests to produce a view than he feels confident about putting his name to.

The data itself didn't seem that striking in terms of the frequencies, but the additional factor of the very clear split between the colours, with the colour NOT being the subject of the bet appearing more frequently at ALL it's possible values than ANY value associated with the colour being staked.

The rules suggest that this is a zero house edge game, so over the long term nobody wins. It also seems to have no element of skill. Lastly, it seems very BORING to play more than a few hands, as the biggest return is 12x bet.

I do not understand why a zero edge game would be offered given that the operator can make no money on it overall, unless it is along the lines of the Betfair "zero lounge", designed to keep players playing in the hope that they will play games with a house edge. The "zero lounge" games also have an element of skill, so Betfair DO make money every time a player deviates from perfect strategy.

For the above game to work for the operator, there would have to be some element of strategy involved in achieving the 100% RTP.

If instead the outcomes are simply weighted in order to create the desired house edge, then it is a case of misrepresentation on the rules page, as the outcomes would NOT be "random" in the true sense, and the RTP would not be 100%.

im not sure but its sounding like another b3 category machine same as most bookie machines theyre random per spin but can be compensated to meet the true rtp% & i also think near all machines on the internet use the same degree of fixing rigged or how ever you want to put it , there set but i think there 100% weighted to a given outcome.

 

[katie91]

Editor's note: this player opened an account at this casino using another person's identity, and misrepresented himself to the community and those who were trying to assist him. This does not negate the fact that there are serious issues with the software and how the regulatory commission and affected casinos are responding to this.

The reason why I enjoy playing this game is because it gives the player a good chance of winning. It is like playing roulette but with no 0 on the wheel. For me most casino games are pretty repetitive, it is the wins that I enjoy and I have had some really good winning streaks on this game at other casinos!

As for why the casino offers the games with 100% RTP, well I don't just play this game. I played other Hi Lo games and some slots in the casino which they get money from. A major reason for joining Betfred was to play this game with a good paytable. If they want to offer a lower RTP then that's fine but they should do it in a clear way like Bet365 by lowering the paytable, they should not do it with some non-random rigging of outcomes.

As for the following:

Another case of check the casino , check the License and check the software provider.

Betfred are a huge UK bookie and are accredited here on Casinomeister. I am still shocked that this could happen and I can only believe it is an accident. They are licensed in Gibraltar, the same place as among others 32Red, Coral and Bet 365.

I have also had a look at the website for the software provider "Realistic Games" and it says they are licensed and regulated by the UK Gambling Commission. I have been reading up on the requirements for software providers under the technical standards and they are surprisingly thorough:

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. I believe that many of these have been broken in this case but will wait for Eliot to finish his investigation.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The reason why I enjoy playing this game is because it gives the player a good chance of winning. It is like playing roulette but with no 0 on the wheel. For me most casino games are pretty repetitive, it is the wins that I enjoy and I have had some really good winning streaks on this game at other casinos!

As for why the casino offers the games with 100% RTP, well I don't just play this game. I played other Hi Lo games and some slots in the casino which they get money from. A major reason for joining Betfred was to play this game with a good paytable. If they want to offer a lower RTP then that's fine but they should do it in a clear way like Bet365 by lowering the paytable, they should not do it with some non-random rigging of outcomes.

As for the following:



Betfred are a huge UK bookie and are accredited here on Casinomeister. I am still shocked that this could happen and I can only believe it is an accident. They are licensed in Gibraltar, the same place as among others 32Red, Coral and Bet 365.

I have also had a look at the website for the software provider "Realistic Games" and it says they are licensed and regulated by the UK Gambling Commission. I have been reading up on the requirements for software providers under the technical standards and they are surprisingly thorough:

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. I believe that many of these have been broken in this case but will wait for Eliot to finish his investigation.

This is what we need. If there is something going on Eliot will unearth it, and if he does find something, it is not going to be possible for the game supplier to dodge the issue.

The game is advertised as "true odds", so if it turns out to be compensated after all, it will be a breach of the rules regarding the provision of clear information to the player that a game is compensated. The b3 category machines are required to display a notice to warn players that they are compensated to meet a set RTP, and that "true odds" do not necessarily apply to any given bet.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The b3 category machines are required to display a notice to warn players that they are compensated to meet a set RTP, and that "true odds" do not necessarily apply to any given bet.

B3s are random.

Cat C is the compensated AWP.

Not relevant here though, I realise that!

 

[vinylweatherman]

B3s are random.

Cat C is the compensated AWP.

Not relevant here though, I realise that!

It's what I get for taking a lead from another post.

These categories don't seem clear to the player. I suspect they are not meant to, and reflect taxation classes (B or C) rather than the nature of the games. I thought "fruities" were now Cat D

 

[aceking123]

pub fruitys are band c which we all know is wieghted 100% , b3 can be weighted to near pefect rtp% . meaning there not truely random read between the ines on that one bookies & bingo halls & next big one which seems the only truely random one is casino machines max jackpot £4k on max stake of £2 quid

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Update.

About an hour ago I sent an e-mail to the top officers at Realistic Games laying out some of the evidence and have asked for their response. I don't want to state any conclusions at this time and can't contribute to this thread in any meaningful way yet. I ask that no one here jump to conclusions about any particular party involved. There may be a delay because many of the key people are on holiday.

Thanks.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Update.

My understanding of "Reel Deal" is that it is advertised a fair game, with RTP = 100%. In this case, Red (R) and Black (B) should be equally likely, as should any sequence of R & B.

I conducted a "correlation" test on the data provided by Katie91. First, I took the raw log file and sorted it chronologically. Then I considered all sequences of five consecutive games. In each game, either a R or B card was drawn. A fair game would give a roughly equal distribution for each of the 32 sequences BBBBB, BBBBR, BBBRB, ... RRRRR. Altogether, there were 19352 such sequences. It is worth noting, in looking at this data, that Katie91 wagered on Red over 19197 times.

The following table tabulates the data for chronological sequences of five consecutive games:



The p-value for this distribution is 0.000000000000000000000000954. The frequency of a distribution with this skew or more is about 1-in-1048712149670420000000000.

To put this in perspective, this is about the same as being dealt four consecutive pat Royal Flushes at five-card stud poker.

I have still not heard back from Realistic Games, Limited. I urge them to reply to this matter as soon as possible to offer an explanation for this and other statistical tests that show similar abnormalities. I sent an e-mail to three officers at Realistic Games. If I don't hear from Realistic Games by January 7, I will assume they will not be responding.

See www.realisticgames.com

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Thank you for that Eliot, as ever your input in these matters is both appreciated and enlightening.

So in summary, the game cheats, what chance now that we're told it's a 'technical error', that Betfred are very sorry, and that it won't happen again?

Maybe Betfred will give katie a Jaguar to say sorry?

 

[threescatters]

The p-value for this distribution is 0.000000000000000000000000954. The frequency of a distribution with this skew or more is about 1-in-1048712149670420000000000.

To put this in perspective, this is about the same as being dealt four consecutive pat Royal Flushes at five-card stud poker.

Thanks for the update Eliot, I think a lot of people here were awaiting this.

So it is conclusively rigged. I am not about to pass judgement on who DESIGNED the game this way (that could have been anyone in the parties involved), however this is damming evidence.

What IS true for sure is that whatever is on www.betfred.com is betfreds responsibility. They are in CLEAR breach of regulations from gibraltar seen here

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.

Not only that they are obviously in breach of accredited casino standards and have lied about "game fairness" in the past. I cannot be the only one who thinks this is outright damming rogue behaviour.

There is no excuse for this. I cannot buy anyone saying this is a "mistake" (although it would be unfair to point fingers guessing who ordered the game to be this way). This is too glaring and obvious an error to be a mistake. Even the most simple testing "is the game fair" would have shown this much bias. If the game passed fairness tests like this then we are dealing with incompetants.

I would suggest nobody is to give this lot their money again and anyone who played the affected games to contact gibraltar directly with links to this thread.

Is the game fair on the other websites it is on? That is an interesting question imo and might shed more light on who wanted the game this way on betfred.

 

[Westland Bowl]

Update.

My understanding of "Reel Deal" is that it is advertised a fair game, with RTP = 100%. In this case, Red (R) and Black (B) should be equally likely, as should any sequence of R & B.........

To put this in perspective, this is about the same as being dealt four consecutive pat Royal Flushes at five-card stud poker.

I have still not heard back from Realistic Games, Limited. I urge them to reply to this matter as soon as possible to offer an explanation for this and other statistical tests that show similar abnormalities. I sent an e-mail to three officers at Realistic Games. If I don't hear from Realistic Games by January 7, I will assume they will not be responding.

See www.realisticgames.com

Perhaps Realistic Games should change their name as it does not appear to be..... realistic!

I'm interested to know if the OP did flat betting or used a betting strategy such as progression one? In my experience, funny things happen when I start using a progression betting strategy in blackjack at online casinos.

By the way, the Realistic Games website is really just a placeholder with their address on it and nothing else. Kinda bit shady when the website provides not further information about them and their games.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Here is the information I found on Realistic Games from a search using www.duedil.com

Company Number: 04392971
Company Type: Private limited with Share Capital
SIC Code: 7221, Software Publishing
Inc. Date: 12 Mar 2002

Registered Address
Unit 106 Boston House
Grove Technology Park
Wantage
Oxfordshire
OX12 9FF
United Kingdom

Trading Address
Boston House
Grove Technology Park
Downsview Road
Wantage, Oxfordshire
OX12 9FF

About Realistic Games Limited
Realistic Games Limited was founded on 12 Mar 2002 and has its registered office in Oxfordshire. The organisation's status is active, and they have 5 associated directors - 2 are current, and 3 are former. There are 3 shareholders of the company. The company has no known group companies. The business has total assets of £138,433 plus total liabilities of £1,074,034. They are due to pay £143,127 to creditors and are owed back £66,983 from trade debtors. As of their last financial statement, they had £8,170 in cash reserves. The company's current book value is £-935,601, and the value of their shareholders' fund is £-935,601.

 

[Pulver]

Pretty damning evidence...

Sure will be interesting to hear what Betfred got to say about this. In my eyes this is outright theft.

 

[Balthazar]

I wonder if/when they will make a public statement. Is the game still available? I've no account there.

 

[dunover]

The most obvious indicator that the software is weighted and cannot possibly be at 100.00 is the first and last BBBBB and RRRRRR sequences. These 2 show the biggest fluctuation from the random correlation factor in the table.
I think we've got to be objective here - there could be a simple mistake at the site in the labelling of the game, at 100% or totally random or however they advertised it on their page, and the intent of Realistic themselves, who have obviously provided a RTP-set game here in the 90's which may be an allowable product but either missold to the site or the wrong version supplied.

 

[mn001]

I don't understand why a company wait so long on responding to something like this. It's putting the entire company at risk. Everyone in leading position should have their vacation cancelled and called in immediately if I ran the company.

 

[Betfred]

Hi all,

Firstly, apologies for the delay in joining this thread, we wanted to do some basic research for ourselves before posting, and have engaged with Eliot and the supplier in question. The investigation is by no means complete.

Betfred Games takes its commitments to players very seriously and any suggestion that one of our suppliers has provided a game with a fault or, indeed, misrepresented a game will be thoroughly investigated. We largely follow the supplier’s guidelines on operating and promoting games on the back of them being audited for fairness and accuracy by 3rd parties first.

We will openly work with Eliot (as we have in the past) and Realistic Games (via our relationship with Finsoft) to ascertain the truth, and will take measured and appropriate action depending on the outcome.

In the meantime we will be removing the game, but let me stress that all data requested will be made available to all relevant parties.

I hope to post again soon with more.

Kind regards,

Aaron
Betfred

 

[Balthazar]

Would Realistic Games benefit from a rigged game?

 

[dunover]

I wouldn't say it was rigged as such, but certainly didn't operate according to the criteria advertised and expected by an operation like Betfred. The game could be legitimate, just one more appropriate and designed for sites that may advertise it as a compensated or say '94.3% RTP' game. The game program and how it was advertised are the clear issues in conflict here. At least they've pulled it, and the benefit of this forum is that firstly it has the calibre of poster who can audit and spot these discrepancies and secondly via communication with accredited sites can get the issue resolved. An interesting one.

 

[mn001]

Would Realistic Games benefit from a rigged game?

Depends on the contract with the casino. If it's percentage of profit they will benefit.

 

[katie91]

Just got this email from Betfred. I'm guessing it's not related to the investigation, I just found the timing quite funny.

Hi Katie,

I'm from the VIP Team here at Betfred and this email is just to let you know that we have made you a full VIP player.

This means that we'll be regularly reviewing your account for potential bonuses, rewards and even upgrades in some areas of the site such as Casino.

Also if you have a large win we can get your withdrawals fast-tracked during the week so they get to you even sooner!

We would like to say welcome to VIP from the team here and should you have any issues please do not hesitate to get in touch.

All the best,

David J

Betfred VIP Team

As far as the advertised RTP goes, if they want to set a different RTP this should be done by adjusting the payouts for red/black (e.g. from 2x to 1.9x) not by making the results non-random. It is listed as a Hi-Lo game which means that each number/card should have an equal chance of coming up regardless of the bet placed by the player. I have never seen a Hi Lo game where this is not the case (in some cases the game is dealt from an actual deck so the same card can't come up again but that isn't the case here). There is actually no way that a fair game with even money payouts on red/black could ever pay anything apart from 100%.

I think maybe it's not the type of game some people would normally play but to put it in the same terms for a more common game - if you were playing Roulette it would be like saying it is OK for the casino to take an extra 4% from the game with a non-random wheel as long as it's listed somewhere in their help files. How many players would actually dig around the help files to check the RTP on every casino every time they play roulette?

I'm sure that this is not the standard Betfred would deliberately set on their casino. I will wait for the results of the investigation but if it shows that they have been misled by the supplier then I would ask that they refund my losses and I will drop any complaints against Betfred. Otherwise I will be forced to take this up with the Gibraltar Gambling Commission.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Greetings,

I want to restate my opinion that no conclusions about any particular party should be made yet. The only conclusion I can make with near certainty is that the game Reel Deal does not behave consistently with the help file associated with it. I would ask for patience until a response from Realistic Games is given.

This situation reminds me of the issue with BLR about 2 years ago.

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

BLR had their software placed at 5Dimes and other casinos. Their craps game was determined to be gaffed. The top casinos (e.g. 5Dimes) immediately removed the software and have not suffered any ongoing ill-will because of it. Betfred did exactly the right thing here.

Best,

Eliot

 

[Jasminebed]

I'd like to thank the OP for remaining calm, and presenting her evidence in such a coherent manner.

I do hope Betfred will review her game logs and make appropriate compensation, and they should do the same for other players of this game.

Dr Jacobson, your expertise is invaluable and appreciated.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

BLR had their software placed at 5Dimes and other casinos. Their craps game was determined to be gaffed. The top casinos (e.g. 5Dimes) immediately removed the software and have not suffered any ongoing ill-will because of it. Betfred did exactly the right thing here.

With all due respect Eliot, I think folks may wish to make up their own minds as to how they feel about a casino found to be running rogue software.

This is part of the problem I have with casinos who run a 'pot pourri' of softwares, if one of them is found to be dodgy they can just remove the offending article, blame the supplier, and wash their hands of it.

Personal taste perhaps, but I prefer 'trueblood' casinos who stick to one software. 32Red = MG. RedBet = NetEnt. Jackpot Party = WMS. Pinnacle = Galewind. And so on.

(Yes I know RedBet also have MG in there but they're covered by virtue of being such a big software supplier.)

Even if this game is found to be rogue, and Betfred chuck it off their books and anything else from that provider, they've basically given themselves plausible deniability by not being attached to the software, despite using their major branding draw to attract players in the first instance.

I prefer to play at casinos that have a bit more to lose when they're found to be running rogue software.

 

[dionysus]

With all due respect Eliot, I think folks may wish to make up their own minds as to how they feel about a casino found to be running rogue software.

This is part of the problem I have with casinos who run a 'pot pourri' of softwares, if one of them is found to be dodgy they can just remove the offending article, blame the supplier, and wash their hands of it.

Personal taste perhaps, but I prefer 'trueblood' casinos who stick to one software. 32Red = MG. RedBet = NetEnt. Jackpot Party = WMS. Pinnacle = Galewind. And so on.

(Yes I know RedBet also have MG in there but they're covered by virtue of being such a big software supplier.)

Even if this game is found to be rogue, and Betfred chuck it off their books and anything else from that provider, they've basically given themselves plausible deniability by not being attached to the software, despite using their major branding draw to attract players in the first instance.

I prefer to play at casinos that have a bit more to lose when they're found to be running rogue software.

I think 'trueblood' is going the way of the dodo. Redbet is adding BetSoft and already has MG.. 32Red has quickfire. In a competitive market, single skew casinos (IMO) are going to become things of the past.