rushmore said that im not welcome here

[kakata]

Ive just asked for my history deposit thats all.
Thats all Ive asked for.
when I was told not to...and that I was a Casinomeister old member..
Emma(rep) told me that Im no longer wanted at Casino meister???...something she received as private communications.
it could be ???I still want my deposit history.

BTW i dont give shit about it

Ive made over 100 deposit there and Ive just asked for my deposits history...nothing more than that.
I couldnt retrieve it thru the cashier....so I asked live chat.
Emma was the jewel...

ps
Ihave the chat


what the mystery about this shit casino group?They feel so sttrong supported? They can do anything they like?
\

 

[kakata]

Emma where is our chat?? did you canceled it?

 

[kakata]

I know im saing the thrut...

 

[mark421]

i just went to login slotoasis and it said i'm not allowed to login,is something going on i don't know about?

 

[Mavin1]

Ive just asked for my history deposit thats all.
Thats all Ive asked for.
when I was told not to...and that I was a Casinomeister old member..
Emma(rep) told me that Im no longer wanted at Casino meister???...something she received as private communications.
it could be ???I still want my deposit history.

BTW i dont give shit about it

Ive made over 100 deposit there and Ive just asked for my deposits history...nothing more than that.
I couldnt retrieve it thru the cashier....so I asked live chat.
Emma was the jewel...

ps
Ihave the chat


what the mystery about this shit casino group?They feel so sttrong supported? They can do anything they like?
\

I don't get it, so you ask for your deposit records and are told you can't have them because you are a member of this forum?
RTG's make it impossible to just get your history on your own and if a player wants them they should not have to jump through hoops to get them.
The RTG casinos should make this type of players records readily available to a player just as MG and others do.
If they won't or don't, then they should gladly provide them to any customer that requests them without any negativity.

edit: Also, if you were no longer wanted here on this forum after all these years, I'm sure Bryan or any of the moderators would have spoke with you privately about it. This kind of information or decision would not come from a casino rep, regarding your membership here. So someone is blowing smoke up your buns honey!

 

[all4greed]

what the mystery about this shit casino group?They feel so sttrong supported? They can do anything they like?
\

It's all about the $$$.

 

[chuchu59]

I would dearly love to see the chat. I cannot speak for many others but for me and some ladies at casinomeister Kakata is a charmer and always one to speak his mind. Keep it up Kakata.

 

[darkpixie]

NEVER trust the send email after chat function. I always copy and paste to notepad or print it as a PDF before closing the window.

 

[maxd]

edit: Also, if you were no longer wanted here on this forum after all these years, I'm sure Bryan or any of the moderators would have spoke with you privately about it. This kind of information or decision would not come from a casino rep, regarding your membership here. So someone is blowing smoke up your buns honey!

Quite so, and thank you for saying so! This sounds like major BS to me if for no other reasons than I certainly never had such a conversation with Rushmore and I SERIOUSLY doubt that Bryan would ever say such a thing.

This whole thing sounds very suspicious. Sounds to me like someone at Rushmore lost it and took it out on Kakata.

 

[jod5413]

I know im saing the thrut...

First of all, you need to calm down. Your post makes it apparent that you are really upset. I can understand that, but it is not doing you or your health any good letting them get you so riled up.

First thing tomorrow, you can chat or e-mail and find out what is going on. I can't help but think that you are misunderstanding them. They would have no right or reason to tell you that you are no longer welcome at Casinomeister.

I just saw Max's post. I agree with him and Mavin. You have obviously been unlucky enough to ask for something (that is your right to ask for), from one messed up casino chat person. There is no excuse for that, and I would demand to see your chat session and be able to read it here.

Tomorrow is another day, Kakata. Let it go til then and try to relax, OK?

Take Care

 

[The Dude]

Hi Kataka,

They may have been referring to the time you were suspended from the forum about 18 months ago for basically the same issue:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rushmore-casino-experiences.24300/

But that's water under the bridge - you apologized - that was then, this is now. You're welcome here in this forum, not a prob.

Nevertheless, you should be able to get your deposit history via the casino without any hassles.

It's all about the $$$.

Are comments like these really necessary?

 

[chayton]

Yeah K, you know all of us ladies @ casinomeister want you, at least.

On a serious note, even if the chat rep did hear some insinuation from someone who's a member here, the repetition of that sort of gossip from a someone in a professional capacity is totally uncool. IMO.

 

[kakata]

Thank you all.....and yes I do have the chat...let me just try to figure how to post it.

 

[kakata]

I was on chat with a different operator "Daniela" and she said she could not provide that info....I was disconnected when I was already heating ... and than Emmma came in the picture.....and Emma said she could....where is the thruth?


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ReplyReply AllMove... Flag this messageTranscript of your chatSunday, June 6, 2010 6:10 PMFrom: "player" <[email protected]>Add sender to ContactsTo: [email protected]
General Info
Chat start time Jun 6, 2010 5:52:34 PM EST
Chat end time Jun 6, 2010 6:10:43 PM EST
Duration (actual chatting time) 00:18:08
Operator Emma


Chat Transcript
info: Please wait for a site operator to respond.
info: You are now chatting with 'Emma'
Emma: Hi and welcome. How can I help you?
you: daniela....I just want my deposiur history
you: soorry Emma
Emma: You can access this under account summary
you: I was on a chat with daniela
you: I knowethat
Emma: I can assist you : )
Emma: if you'll allow mw
Emma: *me
you: it does not come outr
Emma: what do you mean by it does not come out?
you: as simply as that
you: it does not
Emma: You cannot view your account history at all?
you: I want to know how many deposit Ive made at your casino
you: how much is the ttal
you: ive deposited
Emma: I can provide you with this information, but just to be clear- you are saying you cannot view your account summary section in the cashier?
you: and how much I ve deposited to your grouo of sister casinos
you: emma i can not
you: is it so difficult to undearsteand?
Emma: Yes, I would like to be clear as to what the issue is- if you can see the other tabs, are you stating that the option is not available to see at all, because this would be a technical issue that we would like to recolve for you
you: forget about it.
you: I just want to know
you: how much I have in deposits
Emma: and as I explained, this information is available for you to see yourself
you: thats a simple question isnt it?
Emma: as was mine
you: no
you: u trying to be smart
Emma: I am simply trying to assist you
you: I just want to know how much I have in deposits?
you: thats all
Emma: as I have directed you, you can view this online
you: I cant
you: so please help
Emma: Ok, so first I would like to establish why you cannot, please answer my basic question so that I may assit you
you: casinomeister friend will read this
Emma: ok
you: ok
you: so what is your basic question?
Emma: If you are able to see the tab in the cashier where it says account history
info: Your chat transcript will be sent to [email protected] at the end of your chat.
you: I can...still it doesnt work
Emma: can you be more specific about this
you: beside that..I might be an idiot
you: so Im askin u
you: please
you: give me my deposit history
Emma: Giovanni, I am aware, as I am sure you are, that you are no longer welcome with Casino Meister. Besides this, if you continue to refuse to explain to me the exact nature of your issue, we will not be able to assist you
you: emma u are full of **** Im amongst the older member at casinomeister
Emma: We have documentation from them to the contraryyou: ok
you: l we will see....so thats for you an excuse to cheat?
info: Your chat transcript will be sent to [email protected] at the end of your chat.
Emma: Why do you believe we have cheated you

 

[chuchu59]

While I know that a player's deposit history can be retrieved at the cashier I fail to understand why Emma had to get to the root of a probable technical problem. Just let K have the deposit details across the casino group and the problem is solved.

Hopefully, Louise or any other rep has a reason for the highlighted part in K's post above.

Nevertheless, it was probably not right to suggest that the casino was cheating as there is no evidence so far. Rather, it's just a non-compliance.

 

[kakata]

I know too where and how to retrieve my history....but it would not open for some unknown reason...thats why I asked on chat.

 

[kakata]

when I said cheating...I was referring to the fact that she was making it so difficult for me and she was strongly trying to avoid what it was a simple request ....when she could have just said...yes..here you have your history.no?

 

[The Dude]

To be fair, I think Emma was really trying to assist Kakata - she was trying to find out why he couldn't pull this info up on his own. If there is something wrong with his software, she needs to know. It wasn't like she was not trying to help.

As for the Casinomeister blurb, that was in response to Kakata's implied threat that he was going to complain here. She probably thought he was still banned here. That's my understanding of this - but I might be wrong.

I wouldn't take this so serious.

 

[darkpixie]

Regardless, what is a chat rep doing minding K's activities??? Frankly its none of their business what 3rd party forum he manages to get banned from and completely inappropriate to mention it to a client no matter what their motivations. Really bad customer service IMHO, and either the casino keeps a 'hit' list of members that fall out of favor at various forums, or this particular chat rep has far too much time on their hands.

 

[kakata]

Its my destiny to be always wrong in your eyes Bryan......
BTW I did not get what I asked for...my deposit history at the 3 casinos.
Since I can not retrieve it thru the lobby/cashier window....how will I get em?
If something doesnt work in their system its not my problem to help em to fix it.
I said I couldnt retrieve it more than 2 times.....and she wants me to explain to her what specifically didnt work.....Im a player there not a technician.
Just send me my history than go check for yourself whats wrong w/ your system.
Thats the way I see it.


Its enough for me to know that Ive made 100 deposits and NEVER withdraw once.Thats what I know and should have been enough for her not to delay in providing me what it seems to be a fair request.

 

[The Dude]

Its my destiny to be always wrong in your eyes Bryan.........

I never said you were wrong, I only said it appeared that she was trying to help.

I'm assuming that they never followed through with with what you asked for?

If so, try contacting their chat again with another request.

 

[kakata]

trying to post the screen shot of the cashier where it says "no transaction"

 

[kakata]

okay its working now (miracle)

I have a 35 pages of history with Rushmore only.
I went thru half of it and Ive made 37 deposits(average 65)....1 cashout for 110.

I know that I didnt have any other cashout.

So lets assume that Ive made a total of 74 deposits x 65=$4810 plus an average bonus of 100% it come up to $9600.
Mostly played at 20/40c. bet. Thats a lot of spins.

This is at rushmore only....now I think Ive made 30 to 40 deposits at the other 2 sister casino..its over 100 deposits at 3 different casinos and only one withdraw for 110 bux.

great performance.

Id love to know what a %RTP ive had thru my playing time with em.
Im sure it will be to much to ask for.

 

[winbig]

This is at rushmore only....now I think Ive made 30 to 40 deposits at the other 2 sister casino..its over 100 deposits at 3 different casinos and only one withdraw for 110 bux.

great performance.

But is that the casino's fault, or your? Did you count how many times that you *should* have cashed out, but kept playing, instead?

 

[kakata]

But is that the casino's fault, or your? Did you count how many times that you *should* have cashed out, but kept playing, instead?

yes i did....just couple.... and for very small amounts....(150)
I was waiting for some casino's Ivanhoe to come...


nifty you never miss a chance to be on the casino side...do you?

 

[KasinoKing]

nifty you never miss a chance to be on the casino side...do you?

With all due respect, I don't think Nifty or WinBig are "on the casino's side", but on logic's side.

We ALL know casino games have a house edge (in the case of RTG slots, about 5%), and so if you keep on playing indefinitely you WILL lose - it's as certain as the sun setting every evening.

So just saying "I made 100 deposits and only one cashout, so what's the RTP?" is a meaningless point unless further details are given.
e.g. You can't calculate the RTP just from deposits and withdrawals (or lack of them ), you need to know how much you wagered and how much you lost.

Similarly the question "how many times could you have cashed out?" is equally valid given my first statement above. Another important factor is did you take a bonus with any/all of your deposits? This obviously effects your chances of being in a position to cash out as you need to meet the WRs first.

All the best,
KK

 

[kakata]

With all due respect, I don't think Nifty or WinBig are "on the casino's side", but on logic's side.

We ALL know casino games have a house edge (in the case of RTG slots, about 5%), and so if you keep on playing indefinitely you WILL lose - it's as certain as the sun setting every evening.

So just saying "I made 100 deposits and only one cashout, so what's the RTP?" is a meaningless point unless further details are given.
e.g. You can't calculate the RTP just from deposits and withdrawals (or lack of them ), you need to know how much you wagered and how much you lost.

Similarly the question "how many times could you have cashed out?" is equally valid given my first statement above. Another important factor is did you take a bonus with any/all of your deposits? This obviously effects your chances of being in a position to cash out as you need to meet the WRs first.

All the best,
KK

I wish I did....I wouldnt be complaining....the fact is that I NEVER had a long session....maybe in the beginning ( 2008 )...not anymore after that.
I went broke always in a matter of minutes(20/30)
Lots of bonuses...yes I did take em...is it a sin?
Free chips....once...with a 74x wagering requirementand max cashout.
Every time someone...not just me...posts against a casino has to be prepared to defend himself....on an " how you dare to"...from the casino's heros.
There are few on board.
Im not scared tho...so keep it coming.
the thing is that some of you know that all of sudden I explode( and use it to provoke my reaction))...and than you can get free of kakata's complains.
If thats what you need to make you happy.....what a poor life you must have.

 

[rockycatt]

yes i did....just couple.... and for very small amounts....(150)
I was waiting for some casino's Ivanhoe to come...


nifty you never miss a chance to be on the casino side...do you?

i needed to look it up :notworthy

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

just a reader of this story R C

 

[oldtrvlagt]

I'm not "siding" with either but I could say the same thing about a couple of RTG casinos and a few more Rivals. What I've learned over the years is to just give it up after a certain point. I'm not going to win at XYZ casino so I move on. There was so much praise about Slotocash I tried for a year and a half and had only two cashouts...I uninstalled...it wasn't meant for me. I try a new one and bam..after afew deposits I cashout. It's just the nature of gambling as I'm sure you are well aware.

The major problem is that when you take a bonus look at the playthrough. If you are betting $.20 and $.40 you are going to have a much harder time hitting something large enough to carry you over the dry spell and make it through the WR. I have done it many times and the least amount I bet is $1 a spin. I need (hypothetically a WR of $5000) to hit something large and then get really lucky...anyone does. Most of the time you are better off NOT taking a bonus so you do not lose that possible cashout.

Losing sucks...but when we figure out why it sometimes helps...just my 2 cents nothing more....good luck!

 

[kakata]

I start betting little instead and if I win something noticeable I do upper my bet....thing is... it never happened at this casino....maybe once or two in a long long long time.(over 2 years)

 

[kakata]

....and they are NOT accredited anymore....

 

[Nifty29]

yes i did....just couple.... and for very small amounts....(150)
I was waiting for some casino's Ivanhoe to come...


nifty you never miss a chance to be on the casino side...do you?

Ummm...WTH??

I didnt even post anything! I thanked someone whose opinion made logical sense!

Kakata you need to calm down a bit and stop taking comments or opinions about an issue as a personal attack (not that I actually made one in this thread)

The main reason you havent been in a position to cash out is because you almost always take bonuses - and no, it isnt a 'sin' to do that but it means that you probably were in a position to cashout many times but it was eaten away by wagering requirements. If you want to cashout whenever you like, then dont take bonuses. I can personally attest to being in a much better financial position after deciding to severely restrict my use of bonuses.

Sounds like gambling isnt fun for you anymore.

But what would I know? Im just chillin' and shillin' as always

 

[kakata]

Ummm...WTH??

I didnt even post anything! I thanked someone whose opinion made logical sense!

Kakata you need to calm down a bit and stop taking comments or opinions about an issue as a personal attack (not that I actually made one in this thread)

The main reason you havent been in a position to cash out is because you almost always take bonuses - and no, it isnt a 'sin' to do that but it means that you probably were in a position to cashout many times but it was eaten away by wagering requirements. If you want to cashout whenever you like, then dont take bonuses. I can personally attest to being in a much better financial position after deciding to severely restrict my use of bonuses.

Sounds like gambling isnt fun for you anymore.

But what would I know? Im just chillin' and shillin' as always

with or withouth bonuses..I Never had chances...never....

..and you very well know what I mean...
I have not even a hair of an idiot...so dont even try to treat me like one....

Use your speaking/writing ability( you do have) with someone else...or lets speak Italian or Spanish.OKAY??

...and about finance position...I never said I was in trouble....Im not cuz i do not lose as much as you think I do.
If you are interested ask KK. I signed up few times at his site...he never made profits on me.;...., or very little.
Im not a loser...what you usually call ppl who do complain....

 

[Nifty29]

with or withouth bonuses..I Never had chances...never....

..and you very well know what I mean...
I have not even a hair of an idiot...so dont even try to treat me like one....

Use your speaking/writing ability( you do have) with someone else...or lets speak Italian or Spanish.OKAY??

How was I treating you like an idiot? Or suggesting you were an idiot?

As for the comment about my writing ability - whats all that about?? Why would I try to speak another language here when it is an English language forum?

If you feel you have a valid argument, and that language is the only barrier to you expressing it, why not post in Italian etc and have someone translate it?

Lots of bonuses...yes I did take em

If this is true, then you most likely didnt have the chance to cashout very often - but this is due to the fact you locked yourself in to wagering requirements by taking the bonus. You cant blame the casino for your own choices. You also said there were a few times you could have cashed out but didnt - so again, it was your choice.

Honestly kakata, try not taking bonuses for a month or two and I would be very surprised if you werent in a position to cashout much more often than at present. Of course, what you do when you make it to that position is up to you.

When I see players say they lose 50 or 100 deposits in a row it really floors me - it is very rarely that I dont cashout at least once in every 5-10 deposits. So, that either makes me consistently incredibly lucky over a period of years, or it says something about how I gamble/manage my bankroll compared to others. It doesnt mean Im a hero or anything, but obviously Im doing something right. The only way I could see myself gambling differently would be if I was addicted - as all control and logic goes out the window and feelings of anger and frustration get in the way of reason. If I ever come to that point, you wont be seeing me for dust. When it stops being enjoyable, it stops being worthwhile IMO.

 

[chuchu59]

My 2c worth.

Nifty does side with the casinos occasionally but always backs up his arguments with valid reasoning so I dont see problems with it.

We should try to understand that not all players are analytical. Some are sentimental and if there are a lot of losing sessions/deposits in succession they get frustrated. It can be easily seen from the live chat that Emma was very unprofessional as she seemed to indicate that Kakata didnt know what he was doing. As I said previously, just send the frigging stats and be done with instead of arguing with the customer. If I were unable to get my stats at the cashier and the support staff goes technical despite my pleas I would be pissed off too.

 

[Jasminebed]

I often find that I get much better results for requests of deposit histories or RTPs via email.

RTGs tend to be a little confusing in that most deposits are requested, then approved, and then bonus requested and bonus added, so one deposit takes 4 or more lines usually. Sometimes a coupon that should be active isn't and you are given a different code, and can end up with 8 lines for a deposit. You also don't get a lot on one page either.

I figure the casino has more customers than I have casinos, it should be easy for them to retrieve it upon request.

Kakata, keep your cool, I'd hate to lose you again here at CM.

 

[RedAndi]

Why does Rushmore always seem to be the subject when peeps are really pissy? Lately that seems to be the case at least.
Seems like many are not happy with this place and a few won't hear of it, period.

Did Kakata say they are no longer accredited? I wasn't sure if that's who he meant. (Never mind, went and found CM's post about why they are no longer on the "good" list).

 

[maxd]

For the record, see Rushmore removed from the Accredited Section.

 

[RobWin]

"you: emma u are full of **** Im amongst the older member at casinomeister

Emma: We have documentation from them to the contrary

you: ok"

Does no one else find this comment made by Emma strange or interesting?

What is the documentation that she is referring to that they have received from Casinomeister?

Why would Casinomeister be providing the Rushmore Group with any type of information on a member/player here?

Why the phuck am I the only one that ever questions shit like this here?
____
____

 

[LaurieJim]

"you: emma u are full of **** Im amongst the older member at casinomeister

Emma: We have documentation from them to the contrary

you: ok"

Does no one else find this comment made by Emma strange or interesting?

What is the documentation that she is referring to that they have received from Casinomeister?

Why would Casinomeister be providing the Rushmore Group with any type of information on a member/player here?

Why the phuck am I the only one that ever questions shit like this here?
____
____

I found that odd myself


Laurie


nevermind, now i know

 

[maxd]

What is the documentation that she is referring to that they have received from Casinomeister?

Not sure, could be pretty much anything. Kakata has had two PABs against Rushmore so we would have exchanged whatever info necessary in the pursuance of those cases.

Why would Casinomeister be providing the Rushmore Group with any type of information on a member/player here?

See above. Members file PABs. PABs get investigated. Investigation includes the exchange of information regarding the PABer between us and the casino in question. If that troubles you then I suggest you avoid the PAB process, because anyone who does use it signs off on us doing exactly this.

Why the phuck am I the only one that ever questions shit like this here?

What shit __exactly__?

 

[LaurieJim]

ooppps, sorry didnt know about the two PAB's, that would explain alot and why they had the info on kakata.


Laurie

 

[jod5413]

"you: emma u are full of **** Im amongst the older member at casinomeister

Emma: We have documentation from them to the contrary

you: ok"

Does no one else find this comment made by Emma strange or interesting?

What is the documentation that she is referring to that they have received from Casinomeister?

Why would Casinomeister be providing the Rushmore Group with any type of information on a member/player here?

Why the phuck am I the only one that ever questions shit like this here?
____
____

You are NOT the only one. You are simply the one that "never sleeps", which lets you catch stuff before the rest of us wake up in the morning!!!

 

[RobWin]

Not sure, could be pretty much anything. Kakata has had two PABs against Rushmore so we would have freely exchanged info in the pursuance of those cases.

What shit __exactly__?

What type of info exactly, how much of our private info here is being shared with the various casino groups being represented here?

Is this "info" only ever shared if one only agrees to a PAB process?

Or are there other times that info will be shared like for example the TonyT case with LockCasino for example?

I've never used the PAB process as far as I am aware, I think it's good for the ones that do use it but if I had to personally get someone else involved in order to get paid my money, I would go the open media route, that's just me though....
____
____

 

[maxd]

What type of info exactly ....

Whatever is relevant to the case.

Get real Rob, how much of your personal info do we have here at CM? Your email address, some IP stuff, your sign-on date. This stuff very rarely has any relevance to a case but if it did, sure, it's on the table if needs be.

What's with the Mr. Investigator-Pants attitude here? Looks to me like you are trying to drum up controversy here and there ain't none.

... how much of our private info here is being shared with the various casino groups being represented here?

WTF?!? How desperate are you? We don't "share" info with anyone unless we're asked to investigate a case. Then we try and get what we need to make a decision. In pursuing a case we deal with the casino reps, be they casino people or whoever is the individual appointed by the casino to handle the case.

Is this "info" only ever shared if one only agrees to a PAB process?

Generally speaking, yes, but what "info" are you talking about? Your bank account balance? Your shoe size? Your porn preferences? Get a grip Rob, we don't have any special "info" to begin with so what are you getting all humpty about?

Or are there other times that info will be shared like for example the TonyT case with LockCasino for example?

In a special case like that, yes, as you well know and as was stated at the time. Tell you what Rob, when you start sending abusive and threatening emails to one of our Accred casinos then we'll share your "info" with them too. But not before because we've got better things to do!

... I would go the open media route, that's just me though....

Fill your boots, less work for me.

 

[The Dude]

Geeze Rob - why are you getting on my tits?

The PAB process has been around for a number of years. You submit a complaint, it's sent to the casino reps, and they respond (in most cases) with an answer. There is no information shared that the casino does not already have (name, email address, account #, etc.,) The only additional info that they receive is the complainer's user name in the forum - which I really don't think is a big deal since the casino probably knows this already. Edited to add: when you PAB, you agree that the submitted info will be shared with that casino entity. In the past nine years of having this service - no one has ever complained about this. No one.

Again, you are making more out of someone's statement than what is really there. Obviously Kakata has a history at this casino (two PABs) and a number of forum complaints. C'mon, I'm not sitting here in the background sending our members private information to the casinos.

Paranoia will destroy ya.

 

[maxd]

Paranoia will destroy ya.

Quite!

 

[chayton]

I signed up here so long ago I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure that most of the casinos I play at already have more private info than Casinomeister - actually now that I think about it, the casinos I've cashed out at have my driver's license so they know my age! Ack - they even know my WEIGHT!

 

[RobWin]

Geeze Rob - why are you getting on my tits?

Sorry man, not really trying to upset anyone's Chi or Qualm here. Just thought a little more clarification regarding Emma's statement would be good to have here, for all forum members. Thanks to both Max and yourself for clearing that up.
____
____

 

[jetset]

I've just read the last two pages here and I have to say I'm astonished at the unwarranted implications cast by RobWin that something dastardly is going on to the detriment of CM members.

I would have thought that the first logical explanation for any exchange of information to spring to mind would be the PAB system, rather than immediately jumping to the negative and none too suble innuendo that was used.

I think Max has pretty much covered my own opinion on these posts, and that perhaps more restraint is necessary in the future when firing ill-considered broadsides like this, RobWin.