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Thread: William Hill's new casino is an outsourced joke

  1. #1
    thelawnet is offline Knave of Hearts
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    Thumbs down William Hill's new casino is an outsourced joke

    William Hill have set up a new Playtech casino http://www.williamhillcasino.com/, having bought Cpays from Playtech. Unfortunately their 'new' casino appears to have been produced on the Cpays 'create a casino' production line. So when you leave the site, you have to click Ok or Cancel on a Prestige Casino popup; and on the Hill site there are 'Download now' popups everywhere. The link at the bottom of the William Hill casino site goes to the Cpays network, but they're not listed there as a client: http://www.cpays.com/partners.php

    In classic Playtech form the links on the left, labelled 'About William Hill', 'Promotions', etc., just launch the casino installer. Oops.

    And though William Hill is a household name in the UK, with over a thousand betting shops, the number 1 in the UK, for some reason they've felt fit to launch a casino that strongly discriminates against British players.

    "In the interest of fair gaming, you must wager at least 12 times your bonus and Deposit before making any cash outs for $, C$ and €. In the interest of fair gaming you must wager at least 25 times your bonus and deposit before making any cash outs for £."

    Um, say what? British players, the key constituency for William Hill, have over double the wagering requirement of everybody else.

    And don't think, what with the pound falling to 25-year lows, that you could perhaps play in Euros or Dollars. Nope:

    "Please note that regardless of the wagering requirements mentioned above, the following players (defined as: exceptional groups) have to fulfill the following wagering requirements:

    players depositing with £ and are not from the United Kingdom, must wager at least 50 times their deposit and bonus amount before making any cash out.
    players depositing with $/€/C$ and are from the United Kingdom, must wager at least 25 times their deposit and bonus amount before making any cash out."

    And that's not all, if you are British and play in $, you need to be a fully qualified rules lawyer, because further down it says:

    "Please note that only bets placed on all sorts of Slots games do fulfill the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements for players which defined as exceptional groups.

    Please note that for players which defined as exceptional groups, all the bonuses issued only for wagering purposes. Bonuses will be automatically removed from players' accounts after a withdrawal request."

    They also have a 'we can steal your winnings for any reason we like clause'.

    "The casino reserves the right to review transaction records and logs from time to time, for any reason whatsoever. If, upon such a review, it appears that player is participating in strategies that the casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive, the casino reserves the right to revoke the entitlement of such a player to the promotion.

    Furthermore, if upon such review, the players' practices have been deemed to be "Promotion Abuse", William Hill Casino Management has the right to take the following actions, at its sole discretion, against such abusers:

    All winnings on any account/s opened will be null and void and all cash-ins will be cancelled where play has been deemed abusive.
    Abusing Player accounts may be terminated immediately.
    Players found to be abusing promotions may be barred from receiving further promotional offers at the Casino. "

    They also have a £10 free bonus with silly terms:

    '1. The free Sign Up Bonus will be issued to players instantly from the time of signing up.
    2. Please note: Players must register payment details (e.g. credit card or alternative payment method) BEFORE playing with a free sign-up bonus. Any player who does not do so will not be eligible to claim the winnings permitted to be withdrawn in accordance with clause 7 below (i.e. a maximum of $/€/£/CAD 200).
    4. Subject to clause 5 below, the minimum wagering requirements for a sign-up bonus are 99 times the bonus amount, i.e. £10 x99 = £990. This means that you will have to wager at least this amount in order to be eligible to withdraw any of your winnings (subject at all times to the maximum amount permitted to be withdrawn in accordance with clause 7 below).
    5. Please note: Only bets placed on all sorts of Slots games fulfill the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements set forth in clause 4 above.
    6. For age verification purposes, a first approved deposit of at least $/€/£/CAD 20 must be made, in order to be able to withdraw your winnings (subject at all times to the maximum amount permitted to be withdrawn in accordance with clause 7 below).'

    And withdrawing your money? Limited, William Hill might have a billion pounds in annual revenue, but they won't give you more than a few thousand:

    'Cashing out policy

    While there is NO LIMIT to the amount a Player can cash out in the casino, there is a maximum amount that can be withdrawn in one time. For receiving any Withdrawal which is higher than $9,000, an amount of $9,000 (or the corresponding amount in the currency of payment) will be paid to you once a month, upon your Withdrawal request, until the full amount of your Withdrawal request is paid. The foregoing applies also to Withdrawals of progressive jackpots. Withdrawals depend on all conditions specified above and the verification of all required documents as set forth in "Terms & Conditions" Section, clause 9.4.'

    $9,000 a MONTH????

    WTF?

    William Hill must have some monster high rollers. Are they serious?

    They can't spell either:


    'You do not have to withdraw you winnings at the end of each session. The secure server of our casino saves your account balance each time you log off the casino; the moment you log on again, you're account balance will be immediately available. '


    And cashing out to credit card? Sorry, no go:

    'Due to Credit Card's regulations we are not permitted to return funds to your Credit Card account. Cash Outs will be returned via one of our other payment methods which support withdrawals.'


    What a joke. All of this stuff is pretty much par for the course from your run of the mill Playtech, but not what you'd expect from William Hill. You'd think before launching a casino they'd do a bit more than find and replace.

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  3. #2
    Simmo!'s Avatar
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    All goes to back up the theory that William Hill see casino as a secondary side-product that they "should be seen to have". It's pretty apparent to a lot of people here they have never had much of a budget for it and see sports as their core business - something they do very well as it happens. And their reputation for poor support on the casino side has followed them around for years.

    I'm surprised though. They have a reputation to protect and they way they have handled the casino side has IMO done more harm than good. All the other bookmakers have done casino pretty professionally, but Hills seem not to be bothered about it and I find that strange. But maybe core business is what it's all about. Still, teaming up with CPays raised a lot of eyebrows and you have to question whether they did any due diligence on this. To be honest, I think that they should just ditch the casino operation before it does them any more damage.


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  5. #3
    thelawnet is offline Knave of Hearts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simmo! View Post
    All goes to back up the theory that William Hill see casino as a secondary side-product that they "should be seen to have". It's pretty apparent to a lot of people here they have never had much of a budget for it and see sports as their core business - something they do very well as it happens. And their reputation for poor support on the casino side has followed them around for years.

    I'm surprised though. They have a reputation to protect and they way they have handled the casino side has IMO done more harm than good. All the other bookmakers have done casino pretty professionally, but Hills seem not to be bothered about it and I find that strange. But maybe core business is what it's all about. Still, teaming up with CPays raised a lot of eyebrows and you have to question whether they did any due diligence on this.
    Actually they BOUGHT CPays.

    They've set up WHG (International) Limited and WHG Trading Limited (license number 041)

    Deliberately abbreviated so that when you go to something like 'http://www.blackpoolclub.co.uk/', which is third-rate no-name casino, the words 'William Hill' don't appear anywhere.

    A number of the sites they've bought have reputations that are far from stellar. Here's a (partial?) list:

    Amber Coast Casino Dubious: http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...raud-long.html
    BetMost Poker
    Blackpool Club Casino/Bingo
    BetGate Casino http://www.webrouteservices.co.uk/betgate/
    Cote D'Azur Palace http://www.cotedazurpalace.com/
    Diamond Club Casino
    Sky Kings Casino
    32 VEGAS Casino Rogue: http://www.casinomeister.com/rogue/32Vegas.php
    Eurogrand Casino (lots of complaints)
    Joyland Casino Rogue: http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...l-request.html
    Kiwi Casino, Poker, Bingo (Rogue) http://www.casinomeister.com/rogue/n...ngpartners.php
    Playgate Casino
    Prestige Casino
    SkyKings Casino

    CDPoker Poker

    Ruby Bingo


    Due diligence was clearly not done.

    To be honest, I think that they should just ditch the casino operation before it does them any more damage.
    I think they're a bit heavily invested in it for that.

    Seems like they just forked out the millions but didn't expect to have to do any work to make the brands reputable. I guess they just see it as a cash cow, no work required.

  6. #4
    lots0 is offline Banned User - troll posts - flaming Achievements:
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    As I see it, the problem is WH management is listening to the old (Ethically Challenged) management team from CPAYS...

    Bad mistake for WH, imo.

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    wangpoker is offline Experienced Member
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    I wan to know what relationship between CPays and Playtech.
    I heard CPays = Playtech. Could someone confirm this?

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    thelawnet is offline Knave of Hearts
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    Quote Originally Posted by wangpoker View Post
    I wan to know what relationship between CPays and Playtech.
    I heard CPays = Playtech. Could someone confirm this?
    It's all a bit confusing.

    http://www.axisto.com/webcasting/inv...ion_primed.pdf

    It says 'Playtech is acquiring various online gaming businesses, marketing assets and contracts for $250m cash, the majority of which will be combined with William Hill Interactive'.

    It also says there are 110 staff in Bulgaria on support, and 160 in Israel on marketing. But the 110 is to increase as WH's current outsourced staff get dumped so they can expand the Playtech staff operation.

    William Hill's online operations, inclusive of sports made £68m in H1 2008, the purchases made £26m. Hills are 90% British customers, the purchases 90% non-British. The purchased Playtech margins are 31%, and are 83% casino, 17% poker, <1% bingo. But that might not be representative of the wider Playtech portfolio.

    There were a number of companies under the Cpays banner before. Quite who those companies were setup by I'm not sure. But from the fairly simple 'we are buying a Bulgarian support desk' statement, my guess is that Playtech ran the Cpays network and is responsible for the CS, and then there were owners, who owned one or more casinos which were run by Playtech for them, which Playtech have now bought out and are now owned (but not run by) William Hill. Nothing has changed with the support operations of these casinos.

  9. #7
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    Perhaps this explains why William Hill casino have joined the ranks of the prolific spammers.

    This is what might bite them in the a$$ though. They are a British brand, and when UK citizens start seeing the Will Hill spam, they will be somewhat shocked that William Hill has become involved in what they, as non players, have perhaps viewed as a somewhat seedy business.

    No doubt, government officials will receive some of the spam, and if any gets through, I am sure they will wonder why they are suddenly seeing a UK company get involved.

    They would most certainly have been better off getting rid of the casino altogether, but it seems they want to get into this business, and know that while UK citizens might be taken aback, the rest of the world would probably know Will Hill, if at all, from their online offerings, not their high street betting shops.
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    spearmaster's Avatar
    spearmaster is offline Ueber Meister
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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawnet View Post
    But from the fairly simple 'we are buying a Bulgarian support desk' statement, my guess is that Playtech ran the Cpays network and is responsible for the CS, and then there were owners, who owned one or more casinos which were run by Playtech for them, which Playtech have now bought out and are now owned (but not run by) William Hill. Nothing has changed with the support operations of these casinos.
    Not correct. Playtech is a software provider/developer and does not operate casinos. You may establish this fact quite easily as Playtech is publicly-listed.

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    lots0 is offline Banned User - troll posts - flaming Achievements:
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    Quote Originally Posted by spearmaster View Post
    Not correct. Playtech is a software provider/developer and does not operate casinos. You may establish this fact quite easily as Playtech is publicly-listed.

    I maybe wrong about this, but I do believe that spearmaster is somewhat of an expert in this area and I expect that you can take what he says to the Bank.

  12. #10
    thelawnet is offline Knave of Hearts
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    Quote Originally Posted by spearmaster View Post
    Not correct. Playtech is a software provider/developer and does not operate casinos. You may establish this fact quite easily as Playtech is publicly-listed.
    I'm not sure, didn't they buy some casinos from Tribeca?

    Regarding the present deal, they bought casinos that were owned by the 40%owner of Playtech Teddy Sagi, namely Uniplay International Limited and Six Digits Trading Limited. So they do definitely now operate these casinos, and previously were very closely connected to them given that the owner and founder of Playtech owned the casinos. http://www.playtech.com/html/index.php?page=29&id=218

    So it seems to me that the less than stellar reputation of these casinos reflects on Playtech directly, given the relationship between them.

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