DaVinci's Gold requesting notarized docs

[vinylweatherman]

What BelleRock has described is a "certified copy" of a document. These are what can be supplied by "swearers of oaths" here in the UK, and more expensively, by solicitors. Banks where you hold an account may even do this.
It is also possible for persons "of standing in the community" to perform this action, as is the case for the photo used for a passport or drivers licence application. A "certified copy" only shoes that the document provided has been truthfully copied from the original, and sometimes that in addition the presenter has been present at the time. The copy has a seal attached to it that proves that an independent person of standing has made the copy, rather than some "fraudster" having knocked it up in Photoshop. Without the seal, a certified copy loses it's status. A copy of a certified copy also loses much of it's status, since it is an UNCERTIFIED image (JPEG, GIF etc) of a CERTIFIED copy, of an ORIGINAL document.

The quoted regulation does NOT require the PLAYER to provide documents at all, rather it prefers that verification is INDEPENDENT of the player. It is not the PLAYER that should be providing anything other than the details requested, and the institution should then be verifying these independently through agencies such as the electoral roll or credit reference agencies. Getting the player involved should come as a last resort, such as when they have recently moved house, changed name, or are too poor to have even been allowed credit (and perhaps shouldn't be allowed to play anyway). This will be because credit agencies only record credit records, and someone who has never had credit will have no record.
Financial companies are obliged to tell customers if they have been denied a service due to an adverse rating by one of these data agencies, such that the customer can excersise their right under data protection laws to see the offending data, and have it corrected if it is wrong. Casinos BREAK this law when they void winnings for "fraud" based on "indicators" (data) without telling the player which data agencies they have used, and give the player the opportunity to see & seek to have bad data corrected.
Casinos seem only too happy to implement the money laundering and ID verification rules, but seem unwilling to allow players to excersise their rights under data protection laws. Casinos licenced here in the UK are subject to BOTH sets of rules. If it is ProcCyber who have cried "fraud" from "Risk Sentinel", players should send them £10 and demand a copy of all the personal data held on them, as this often holds sway over any number of "documents", certified, notarised, or even handed over in person.

We should ask BelleRock, Where on the website is this concise guide to what might be needed to comply with a request for "notarised copies" offered to players? The same question needs to be asked of many other operators too.

[thisisvegas]

I think people here are missing the point, there is not a big lineup of players claiming they were asked for notarized ID. I have said this is rare and I won't share which players were asked of this and the type of activity that triggered this but when accounting suspects fraud is at play then they do this. Most of the players complaining about this policy have nothing to worry about. I really don't have much more to say on this subject. We are not abusing this policy and if we were there would be more than just 2 posters complaining of it and they would have a larger posting history here at CM as well, we would lose players immediately.

If anybody does have any problems I am here to help.

John

[kakata]

Originally Posted by jas2587

I agree completly look at the teens that have easy access to
pc's an can sneak into their folks rooms snag a credit card an run the hell
out of it till it is in debt

I play legit I win big I will produce my id notorized
hell I will provide a copy of my behind notorized I
dont see the big deal

Cindy

Can I have copy of " it " too please?

[hakapuku]

Here is how Bellerock casinos ask for documentation: if you win some money at lucky nugget, gaming club or riverbelle- they will lock your account and will ask for notarized stuff. They will NEVER lock somebody's account and will never ask for any documents if somebody lose the money at their casino. I have a lot of friends playing at the online casinos and this is the information I got from them. So all this stuff about underage gambling and money laundering- this is bull=hit...It is all about the casinos' profit. Pay attention to what bellerock casinos representative said here: they will ask the notarized documents almost in any case (to verify your age ,for example), not only if they suspect some fraud. Avoid Bellerock casinos that I have mentioned above (plus jackpotcity casino) ,unless you want to spend a lot of time and also your money in order to notarize your id and also your utility bill...And all this only to get your deserved winnings. There are a lot of other good casinos which will never ask you for the notarized documents.

The user bellerock predicts that soon every online casino will ask for notarized stuff? I think that if this will ever happen the online gambling industry will be destroyed forever. Because it is the stupidest tactics for the online casino to burden your customer with all possible difficulties to get the money that the client won. What will you do next, belerock? Ask the client to arrive at your offices at South Africa with the necessary documents in hands? Find some more clever way to improve your balance sheet, bellerock

[bb28]

This is my view of it....and it's just my opinion so it's probably worth about 2 cents.
I don't believe that casino's requesting notarized documents are standard practice as it has been stated. Seems to me that they would have to be highly suspicious of fraud or some other serious issue before they would chose this extreme route. Think about it......if this was a normal course of events, they know it's going to piss people off. Piss people off = lose business. Doesn't make sense does it?
Oh and let's not forget the OP, his/her original complaint was over $5000.00 and he/she just dropped it......Come on, would you walk away from $5000.00 if you were rightfully owed this amount???? I wouldn't and I might be irritated that I had been asked but I would comply without too much bellyaching, IMO it would be worth it.
If you go to a B&M casino and you win over a certain amount you have to provide 2 forms of ID, and I don't get my panties in a wad over that, why is it soo much different here. After all, it's easier to pretend to be someone else online than it is in a B&M.
Just my 2 cents.

[bb28]

This thought just occured to me when I read Chuchu59's post.

I'm going to venture a guess that one reason notarized documents are not required in the normal course of events is because it is not cost effective to request them from every player. Afterall.....what percentage of players actually cash out??
And.....I would suppose that the normal documents requested all match up and are everything that they need in 9 out of 10 cases at least. It would be good if a industry professional would comment on the points I brought up pertaining to percentage of actual attempted fraud cases. This might address some of the concerns that players are bringing up because we normally aren't aware of fraud issues......well unless of course you one of the fraudsters.

Originally Posted by chuchu59

John,

I understand that Rival is taking a lot of flak these days, some even from me. Specific casinos/group of casinos have been treated alike be they from RTG, MG or Playtech in the past.

On this issue, players get suspicious when asked for these notarized docs just when they are cashing out. It would have been better were it a standard procedure for ALL players within 2 weeks of opening their account/first deposits. If they did not comply then, they cannot argue that this is required when they make a cashout. Since this applies to everybody, there will also be no cries from them accusing the casino of having 'singled' them out.

I doubt whether any of us have a grudge against Rival in general but there do seem to be a host of problems with them recently ie the current one being with Simon Says in another thread.

[catrina m]

I think that anything you will have to provide to the casino should be asked for prior to depositing.

It should be very clear to play here you must be able to provide these documents. It should be stated as rule number 1, and not hidden in the small print in the back page of the terms.

The websites of these casinos haven't changed in years, and rule munber 1 is usually we can change the rules to suit us at any time.

One casino or group needs to step up and establish the best damn payouts to go along with no surprises and corner this multi billion dollar market.

There are enough people in the world gambling for a non greedy group to have the players endorse them by the positive feedback of winning nice withdrawals and reporting that they were paid extremely fast because all the delay tactics on withdrawals are cleared up prior to playing.

I would rush my notarized documents in to a casino where the reports of winning were circulating. And know that my withdrawal was a next day occurance.

The only one close is inetbet but the slots have everyone crying instead of proclaiming.

loosen those slots inetbet and I will play with you for the rest of my internet gambling days.

[pacers31]

This again, here we go! There are only a couple of legit reasons for any online or land based casino to ask for any form of ID period. 1) Verify a players age, 2) for tax purposes.Phone bills, etc are all BS. When I cash in at a land based casino they don't make me get a phone bill or notarize my DL, why should the online version ask. I'm with Catrina, ask upfront before I deposit or don't ask at all. I would think that the casinos would want to do this to avoid the terrible PR that they get over issues like this. As I've pointed out in posts before, there is no way that my DL or phone bill in anyway proves a thing. Sure the name may match, but the picture doesn't help the casino ID me in anyway. If I am truly a fraudster, and I have stolen someones ID and obtained a DL in their name, the casino would be none the wiser. The rule should be, if you take my deposit without any ID request, give me my withdrawl without any ID request. It couldn't be any simpler or fairer than that.

[bb28]

Remember that little I agree button that you said yes to when you installed the software? Most casino's have a clause in their terms and conditions that advise you that you may be asked or you will be asked to provide documentation when you are cashing out. If the particular casino that you installed did have this clause in their T&C's................ you are arguing a mute point. Essentially if you agree to use the software you are agreeing to certain terms and conditions and if you don't agree, then don't play there. It's really pretty simple.
It is our (us the players) responsibility to read the T&C's and if we can't/don't want to abide by them, then we need to take our business elsewhere.


Here is an example of what you agree to at one of the Rival's website and it's probably pretty standard across the board, be it Rival, MG, RTG.

"PRIZES & WINNINGS

The casino reserves the right to request documentation for the purpose of identity verification prior to granting any deposits with or withdrawals from the player's casino account."

Another example from 3Dice. "Before any winnings are paid out, 3DICE.COM reserves the right to require the user to provide information or documentation as to verify the user’s identity."


Just to be clear......I am in no way saying that this clause should be used to delay payments for no good reasons or to cheat someone out of their winnings, but online casino's are a business and they do have to protect themselves. Can you walk into a bank and cash a check if you have no account there and no ID? I don't think so! Why would you expect a online business to be any different?

Originally Posted by catrina m

I think that anything you will have to provide to the casino should be asked for prior to depositing.

It should be very clear to play here you must be able to provide these documents. It should be stated as rule number 1, and not hidden in the small print in the back page of the terms.

The websites of these casinos haven't changed in years, and rule munber 1 is usually we can change the rules to suit us at any time.

One casino or group needs to step up and establish the best damn payouts to go along with no surprises and corner this multi billion dollar market.

There are enough people in the world gambling for a non greedy group to have the players endorse them by the positive feedback of winning nice withdrawals and reporting that they were paid extremely fast because all the delay tactics on withdrawals are cleared up prior to playing.

I would rush my notarized documents in to a casino where the reports of winning were circulating. And know that my withdrawal was a next day occurance.

The only one close is inetbet but the slots have everyone crying instead of proclaiming.

loosen those slots inetbet and I will play with you for the rest of my internet gambling days.

Originally Posted by pacers31

This again, here we go! There are only a couple of legit reasons for any online or land based casino to ask for any form of ID period. 1) Verify a players age, 2) for tax purposes.Phone bills, etc are all BS. When I cash in at a land based casino they don't make me get a phone bill or notarize my DL, why should the online version ask. I'm with Catrina, ask upfront before I deposit or don't ask at all. I would think that the casinos would want to do this to avoid the terrible PR that they get over issues like this. As I've pointed out in posts before, there is no way that my DL or phone bill in anyway proves a thing. Sure the name may match, but the picture doesn't help the casino ID me in anyway. If I am truly a fraudster, and I have stolen someones ID and obtained a DL in their name, the casino would be none the wiser. The rule should be, if you take my deposit without any ID request, give me my withdrawl without any ID request. It couldn't be any simpler or fairer than that.

[chuchu59]

Originally Posted by bb28

This thought just occured to me when I read Chuchu59's post.

I'm going to venture a guess that one reason notarized documents are not required in the normal course of events is because it is not cost effective to request them from every player. Afterall.....what percentage of players actually cash out??
And.....I would suppose that the normal documents requested all match up and are everything that they need in 9 out of 10 cases at least. It would be good if a industry professional would comment on the points I brought up pertaining to percentage of actual attempted fraud cases. This might address some of the concerns that players are bringing up because we normally aren't aware of fraud issues......well unless of course you one of the fraudsters.

I agree that it would not be cost effective to request notarized docs from each and every player. However, while TIV and some others may have genuine concerns on whether some players are fraud there may be some rogues using this as a ploy to delay cashouts or not to pay at all. We should not trust the casino in this regard as we dont know whether they are the former or latter. If there was a system which requires for such documentation when we register/deposit we should have much less to worry about.

Maybe the casino could seek to reimburse the notarization fees or rather the portion of fees that exceed $5/10. Or they could give a match bonus for these fees with a 3x playthrough.. IMO the casinos may really require these docs for security purposes but havent given much thought to this issue to make it more palatable to the players. Simply stating that this occurs infrequently is not enough because of the fundamental question: Who knows?