DaVinci's Gold requesting notarized docs

[jas2587]

I agree completly look at the teens that have easy access to
pc's an can sneak into their folks rooms snag a credit card an run the hell
out of it till it is in debt

I play legit I win big I will produce my id notorized
hell I will provide a copy of my behind notorized I
dont see the big deal

Cindy

[lauriejim]

Originally Posted by GrandMaster

Could you quote where exactly the AML regulations or lincensing requirements specify notarized copies? You can certainly open and operate online bank accounts without them.

Furthermore, do you really need things notarized? If you want some kind of paper trail and verifiability, why is a solicitor or a commissioner for oaths in the UK not acceptable, which would be much easier and cheaper for players? Do you also realize that in some states of the US notaries are explicitly prohibited from notarizing documents, and they only notarize signatures on documents.


A solicitor or a commissioner for oaths is not a notary (in general) and cannot notarize documents.


I know that in the US every bank teller and his dog is a notary public and it may be similar in Canada, but they are much thinner on the ground in the UK. The full listing of notaries public England and Wales can be found at http://www.facultyoffice.org.uk/Notaries2.html, there are about 750 of them for about 50 million people with about 1/3 of them in London. There must be many small towns and villages which have a solicitor, but no notary public. Notaries public also tend to be quite expensive, since most of their business consists of foreign trade and shipping, where it is important that the documents be acceptable in a foreign court but an extra £50 in costs is not going to make a difference.

....hey g/m im a notary and not a bank teller but i do have a dog i have to be bonded and it has to pass thru my counties goverment meetings to become a notary at large.all i could do is to verify the signature and what docs the person presented to prove him or herself to be that person, but since online gambling is so sticky in the good ole u.s.a, i would be hesitant to stamp anything.im sure there are plenty out there who would stamp and sign for a buck or two and not care, but i do...............laurie

[chuchu59]

Originally Posted by thisisvegas

Online casinos are becoming more accountable especially in the jurisdictions where they have gaming licenses. Asking for documents is important for numerous reasons, such as fraud and possibly underage gambling. More important it is easier for people to try to play under someone else's identity and even worse is identity theft. Stuff like this occurs more than you think and if we never had this policy to request documents I am sure we would have seen shadier activity. Once again if you don't like these policies then don't play. I don't get why players have to try to trample on Rival casinos as if they exposed a big flaw, I don't see other managers on here fielding these questions when they have different software but the exact same policies.

John

John,

I understand that Rival is taking a lot of flak these days, some even from me. Specific casinos/group of casinos have been treated alike be they from RTG, MG or Playtech in the past.

On this issue, players get suspicious when asked for these notarized docs just when they are cashing out. It would have been better were it a standard procedure for ALL players within 2 weeks of opening their account/first deposits. If they did not comply then, they cannot argue that this is required when they make a cashout. Since this applies to everybody, there will also be no cries from them accusing the casino of having 'singled' them out.

I doubt whether any of us have a grudge against Rival in general but there do seem to be a host of problems with them recently ie the current one being with Simon Says in another thread.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by chuchu59

John,

I understand that Rival is taking a lot of flak these days, some even from me. Specific casinos/group of casinos have been treated alike be they from RTG, MG or Playtech in the past.

On this issue, players get suspicious when asked for these notarized docs just when they are cashing out. It would have been better were it a standard procedure for ALL players within 2 weeks of opening their account/first deposits. If they did not comply then, they cannot argue that this is required when they make a cashout. Since this applies to everybody, there will also be no cries from them accusing the casino of having 'singled' them out.

I doubt whether any of us have a grudge against Rival in general but there do seem to be a host of problems with them recently ie the current one being with Simon Says in another thread.

Casinos have argued that asking for documents up front would deter players, and send them to other operators who would allow instant play. This argument, however, does NOT excuse letting a player play for weeks, maybe even YEARS, before asking for documents. As chuchu59 says, there is no reason not to request documents once the casino has received a deposit from a player, and they are playing. If they are unable to satisfy the casino, then they can be ejected before they have made more than a couple of deposits (which should be returned), rather than after a long history of believing they would be paid if they won, only to find they never could have been.

If ID theft is the issue, the casinos are wasting their time if they believe requesting copies of documents, notarised or not, is going to make a difference. Simply, they never actually SEE the player, and therefore can not check that they match the ID on the documents being presented. If a teen steals a parent's credit card and plays, they could also steal the parent's Drivers Licence and Passport, and a utility bill, to comply with the document check. Since the check is only done on cash-out, a teen could be playing underage for some time, especially as they know that cashing out could get them rumbled as any monies would be sent to the parent, who would then wonder what was going on.
For ID theft in general, the ID thief usually seeks to get enough documents to "prove" the stolen ID BEFORE they begin to use it. They will then register a utility bill or two, apply for credit cards and bank accounts in the stolen name, at which point it will be hard to tell that the ID is fake, especially when used online.

Solicitors and "swearers of oaths" produce "certified copies" of documents. This is pretty much the same as having them Notarised, and should cost £5 or so per document. Since procedures vary from country to country, and even within a country, online casinos will see no difference between a "certified copy" and a Notarised document. Banks can produce "certified copies", and may do this for free for their account holders as a gesture of good will. Tell the bank it is for "financial purposes/transactions" or similar, as they might not want, or need, to know it is for online casinos.

Many casinos ask for documents, but they are rather vague about the requirements, only having this buried in the small print, and simply stating "documentation may be required" without offering any real guidance. Many players read this and assume that what they currently have will do fine, which may be their birth certificate, which many believe to be absolute proof of ID.

If casinos are needing to implement more robust ID checks, they owe it to players to clarify, and make more prominent, what the requirements are likely to be. If the industry sees Notarised documents as becoming the norm, say so, as most members of the general public have no idea what "Notarised" is all about, having never encountered it in day to day life unless they have themselves been the executor of a will, or some similar functionary.

[bellerock]

Hi Again,

There seems to be a lot of confusion about who or what the notary is, and what is expected of you when this request is made. Different people in different countries use different terminology, even if we are all speaking English. The way I define notarized could have a completely different meaning in America or England. I would suggest that if you are not sure what the casino wants call them up and ask them exactly what they want. In many instances they want somebody to confirm that the documentation is yours, in most instances they want to confirm that the document is a true copy of the original. These are all different levels of identity verification. Having a commissioner of oaths/notary stamp and sign a copy of your passport stating that it is a true copy of the original, gives us a level of comfort knowing that he has seen the original document, having him further state that that you were also present and are the passport holder is even better. This is the type of thing that most of us are looking for from an ID verification perspective.

GM - to answer your question. The EU directive requires that Customer Due Diligence needs to carried out after certain triggers have been activated:
Article 8
1. Customer Due Diligence measures shall compromise:
a) Identifying the customer and verifying the customer's identity on the basis of documents, data or information obtained from a reliable and independent source;
It goes on to list a few other identity requirements.
It further indicates in Section 3, Article 13 that Enhanced Due Diligence needs to be carried out when additional triggers are hit;
2. Where the customer has not been physically present for identification purposes, Member States shall require those institutions and persons to take specific and adequate measures to compensate for the higher risk, for example by applying one or more of the following measure:
a) ensuring the customer's identity is established by additional documents, data or information;
b) supplementary measures to verify or certify the documents supplied, or requiring confirmatory certification by a credit or financial institution etc.

Again, please don't consider a request for documents as a stalling tactic or as an accusation, in most cases it is part of an operators regulatory and legal obligation.


Hope this helps.

Regards,

Belle Rock

[catrina m]

You keep saying ID, I don't think anyone has a problem with producing that.

I thought we were discussing getting it notarized. Not one microgaming or RTG casino has ever asked for a notarized document from me. ever.

All have asked for documents. I will surely stay away from your group if notarized documents are required.

Again, ID is not a problem.

[classymom]

Originally Posted by catrina m

You keep saying ID, I don't think anyone has a problem with producing that.

I thought we were discussing getting it notarized. Not one microgaming or RTG casino has ever asked for a notarized document from me. ever.

All have asked for documents. I will surely stay away from your group if notarized documents are required.

Again, ID is not a problem.

Why can't you get the documents notarized - Is it just the principle of having to do it or is there another reason? Your in the USA notaries are everywhere and its very easy and painless

[chuchu59]

Originally Posted by bellerock

Hi Again,

There seems to be a lot of confusion about who or what the notary is, and what is expected of you when this request is made. Different people in different countries use different terminology, even if we are all speaking English. The way I define notarized could have a completely different meaning in America or England. I would suggest that if you are not sure what the casino wants call them up and ask them exactly what they want. In many instances they want somebody to confirm that the documentation is yours, in most instances they want to confirm that the document is a true copy of the original. These are all different levels of identity verification. Having a commissioner of oaths/notary stamp and sign a copy of your passport stating that it is a true copy of the original, gives us a level of comfort knowing that he has seen the original document, having him further state that that you were also present and are the passport holder is even better. This is the type of thing that most of us are looking for from an ID verification perspective.

GM - to answer your question. The EU directive requires that Customer Due Diligence needs to carried out after certain triggers have been activated:
Article 8
1. Customer Due Diligence measures shall compromise:
a) Identifying the customer and verifying the customer's identity on the basis of documents, data or information obtained from a reliable and independent source;
It goes on to list a few other identity requirements.
It further indicates in Section 3, Article 13 that Enhanced Due Diligence needs to be carried out when additional triggers are hit;
2. Where the customer has not been physically present for identification purposes, Member States shall require those institutions and persons to take specific and adequate measures to compensate for the higher risk, for example by applying one or more of the following measure:
a) ensuring the customer's identity is established by additional documents, data or information;
b) supplementary measures to verify or certify the documents supplied, or requiring confirmatory certification by a credit or financial institution etc.

Again, please don't consider a request for documents as a stalling tactic or as an accusation, in most cases it is part of an operators regulatory and legal obligation.


Hope this helps.

Regards,

Belle Rock

Bellerock,

I am actually surprised that this came from you. I had the impression that Bellerock doesnt request docs let alone notarized docs but rather lock accounts straight away when there is suspicion of fraud. I still recall the incident several years ago when you locked all my accounts without explanation or a request for docs. Whenever I went to your websites, I was re-directed to a South African eatery site. You suspected fraud and didnt even bother clarifying this with me. When you knew that you had screwed up, there was not a single word of apology. You simply reopened my accounts.

[classymom]

Sorry catrina - I just noticed you were not the oriniginal poster - they are from the UK where it may be more difficult to notarize documents.

[GrandMaster]

Originally Posted by bellerock

Hi Again,

There seems to be a lot of confusion about who or what the notary is, and what is expected of you when this request is made. Different people in different countries use different terminology, even if we are all speaking English. The way I define notarized could have a completely different meaning in America or England.

The word notarize has one meaning: "To have (a document) certified, legalized, or validated by a notary" (OED).

Originally Posted by bellerock

I would suggest that if you are not sure what the casino wants call them up and ask them exactly what they want. In many instances they want somebody to confirm that the documentation is yours, in most instances they want to confirm that the document is a true copy of the original. These are all different levels of identity verification. Having a commissioner of oaths/notary stamp and sign a copy of your passport stating that it is a true copy of the original, gives us a level of comfort knowing that he has seen the original document, having him further state that that you were also present and are the passport holder is even better. This is the type of thing that most of us are looking for from an ID verification perspective.

If you write "notarize", it clearly means you insist on a notary and nobody else will do. There is no ambiguity.

Originally Posted by bellerock

GM - to answer your question. The EU directive requires that Customer Due Diligence needs to carried out after certain triggers have been activated:
Article 8
1. Customer Due Diligence measures shall compromise:
a) Identifying the customer and verifying the customer's identity on the basis of documents, data or information obtained from a reliable and independent source;
It goes on to list a few other identity requirements.
It further indicates in Section 3, Article 13 that Enhanced Due Diligence needs to be carried out when additional triggers are hit;
2. Where the customer has not been physically present for identification purposes, Member States shall require those institutions and persons to take specific and adequate measures to compensate for the higher risk, for example by applying one or more of the following measure:
a) ensuring the customer's identity is established by additional documents, data or information;
b) supplementary measures to verify or certify the documents supplied, or requiring confirmatory certification by a credit or financial institution etc.

Again, please don't consider a request for documents as a stalling tactic or as an accusation, in most cases it is part of an operators regulatory and legal obligation.

Where does it say that you have to have notarized copies of documents?