DaVinci's Gold requesting notarized docs

[2young2care]

I can just see any of us from the US going to a notary and asking them to put their seal on ID papers so that we can collect winnings from internet gambling.

[thisisvegas]

As I stated earlier please go find a collection of complaints from users who have been asked for notarized docs from Rival casinos, they are indeed rare and I am told this is rarely exercised and only in the case of suspected fraud. These are rare cases and as much as people might want to jump on the bandwagon for shunning rivals or complaining about docs I really don't see our policies different than others from Microgaming, Playtech, and Real Time Gaming. The bottom line is if you don't like the terms and conditions then just don't play. Most places reserve the right to ask for docs/ID and this is done for numerous reasons but mostly in the name of fraud prevention. I think the comparisons to B&M casinos are unfair but once again I would expect most reputable casinos to ask for ID and they do.

If anybody has a real issue with this maybe you can PAB on it.

John

[chuchu59]

John,

It's unfortunate that all these things are happening at the same time and it does seem that we are only hearing the players' side of the story. However, we are players also and will ask "Will this happen to me?". On the locked accounts, all we can see is that the accounts were locked and the decision is final. Shouldnt there be an avenue for appealing and if not why?. On the Notarized docs, it is only suspected fraud. If this proves to be true, fine and dandy and you may even confiscate the balances in the accounts. However, what happens if you screwed up and there is no fraud involved. Would you be paying back the fees for acquiring the notarized docs as the suspicion proves to be unfounded.

I am not taking you to task but I believe that these are issues in many a player's mind and if you address them correctly, it will go a long way to allaying their fears.

[maxd]

This whole "notarized ID" business is a serious issue that is not going to go away any time soon.

On the one hand you have casinos who really do need to fight fraud and the notarized documents thing is an effective and reasonably reliable way to do that.

For instance, some of the people involved in this very thread have refused to provide the requested documents even though thousands of dollars are at stake. The casinos report that they have some evidence that those same people are involved in one kind of fraud or another. It seems perfectly reasonable to me for them to stick to their guns and demand the identity verification. This would be an example where the "notarized ID" thing is doing the job it was intended to do.

On the other hand the ID thing is obviously open to abuse. What's to keep a shady operation from demanding notarized ID for every nickel and dime a player asks to withdraw? In some cases nothing and therein lies the legitimacy of some player complaints.

So, how to tell the proper use of ID requests from abuse? It's got to be a frequency issue: if the casino asks for notarized ID from everyone all the time then they're likely abusing it. If their requests are infrequent, specific and pointed then it may well be legitimate and acceptable.

For those of you who have concerns about getting your documents done ... what can I say, in some cases it may be a problem. But let's be realistic about this: we live in an age where identity verification is a pretty common and often necessary inconvenience.

I personally have had identity documents notarized in three countries and two languages and it's never been that big a deal. Is it fun? No, of course not. Is it cheap? Not usually, but it's not outrageous either. Is it fairly straightforward, yes, generally speaking, and normally you do not have to give them detailed explanations of why you are getting it done because that's not really their business. Their business is document verification for which they are getting paid a fee so a general answer, such as "for passport purposes" or "for an international financial transaction", will usually suffice. Been there, done that.

Would I run out and do this for every $50 withdrawal? No, but then it shouldn't be necessary to do so either. Photocopies of notarized documents are often accepted. And if it really comes down to it then once in a while you may have to say "to hell with it" and scratch that casino off your list. Welcome to the bleeding edge: that's life in a risk-based, largely unregulated industry.

And yes, I'm aware that in some countries document verification _is_ a difficult and/or expensive procedure. That's a bummer, but I assure you that your particular difficulty in having this done is not going to change the casino industry's need to have it done. So talk to them about it up front, find out what they'll need and when, etc. As ever, do a little research and you'll probably save yourself some agony down the line.

Are droves of people going to start doing this now that might mouse, er, Max, has suggested they do so? No, of course not, but it is what it is so what can I say? You either do it sooner or you do it later but you almost certainly will have to do it. Your choice when and how.

Finally, for those that say things like "hey, I live in the barrio and nobody here has such documents" then I say welcome to the 21st Century: nowadays identity papers are the norm so either get some or find a new hobby. I'm not being elitist or discriminatory here, it's just reality so deal with it or don't as you see fit.

[Casinomeister]

Originally Posted by Kenny Lingus

Ok, Mr. Rep, why don't online casinos ask for documents BEFORE accepting a deposit? And I'm not picking on Rival by any means as I've witnessed this ploy before by other types of casino operations; but IMO, this "fraud" excuse is nothing but a big pile of crap if it comes after the acceptance of a deposit and the resulting game play. It appears that if the casino benefits from fraud so be it, but ask them to payout and it becomes one for "thorough investigation". How can this practice be justifiable?

Originally Posted by kernow

...Always funny how they require so much information and corroboration when you try to withdraw, and yet you can deposit hassle-free.

This question - that seems to feed off of the pessimism that many players have - is a legitimate one, but it's easily answered.

If you have ever been in Vegas, you probably understand that the casinos there are successful mainly because of their easy access and location. You walk in - there is no check-in counter, no ID check, no dress code, it's wide open. Sure, there are signs "No Minors Allowed" but no staff checking IDs. Anyone can sit at a slot machine and feed it cash.

You can cash out coins, but in most cases it's a cash receipt which you need to bring to the cashier. No biggie - no ID.

But if your winnings are $1000 plus, then expect to produce your passport or DL, and you'll be signing forms from the US IRS.

Online is similar, asking for documentation would drastically slow down the sign-up process probably by days.

Be honest with yourself - I would guess that 99% of you would skip that casino and go to one that doesn't require ID upfront.

So what are you complaining about?

[vinylweatherman]

It would help allay fears if the process were not so secretive. It is far more secretive than is necessary to prevent copycat fraud. There should be figures compiled and released that show what percentage of players are "flagged" and have to go through extra hoops to get paid, and for what kinds of amounts. Further, there should be figures on how often the casino gets it wrong, and accuses an innocent player of fraud.

The biggest problem is not players having to produce extra information & documents, but that CS suddenly treat them like something the cat dragged in last night, rather than affording them the courtesy expected between business and customer - and this happens BEFORE any case is proven either way.

Production of documents is the norm, however, the insistence on a photo ID is not justified by the checking process available to the casino, as they have no means of verifying the photo on the document against the face of the player, since they never meet face to face. What is important is not the presence of a photo, but the nature and authority of the document itself. A GOVERNMENT issued document that gives certain rights to the holder should be good enough, photo or not, since the rights given imply the authorities have had to check that the applicant has earned them, such as a FULL drivers licence (not provisional), and a Passport (which has long had a photo anyway). Because of the lack of a national identity card system here in the UK, it is down to local government to issue such documents on request, but unfortunately they differ in form, some have a photo, and some don't. Britain is considered to be "in the 21st century", so this should not be a problem, so why is it?

Getting documents notarised in the UK should not normally be expensive, but you have to know where to go. A solicitor will usually charge a fortune, but their are cheaper ways, such as a "swearer of oaths" (Notary), who will charge around £5 per page/copy. The Notary will photocopy the document, and then attach a seal to signify they have "Notarised" it. ONLY where a request for NOTARISED documents has been made, does a photo become relevant, as the Notary will have the opportunity to meet the applicant in person, and can notarise that the photo on the document matches the applicant.

There has been a considerable shift towards demanding increasing levels of documentation from players from ALL casinos, not just Rival. SOME players are getting caught out by this because they have been playing for some time and have never had to produce documents before, and are unprepared when asked.

Players should try to make sure they have one form of PHOTO ID, and one other form of ID that independently verifies their address. This should be considered a MINIMUM. Players unable to meet this minimum MUST get themselves verified by the casino BEFORE they play, as they would be unable to comply with the routine request on withdrawal. The casino can then either pass or reject the player at that point (and casinos CANNOT OK a player, and then change their mind when they win, this would be considered rogue behaviour).

What is also needed is a guide for players in how to deal with these ID issues, especially when they have fallen foul of them, and need to know how to best go about verifying their ID without making themselves look even worse, such as thinking of adding their photo by photoshopping a non-photo ID document just to comply with the casinos request for a photo on it - this may be a foolish attempt to comply, but looks like the person knows about fraud, and makes them look more like a fraudster.

[bellerock]

Hi All,

The demand for ID verification is growing all the time. Most reputable casinos in reputable jurisdictions are required to adhere to specific anti money laundering codes and with the release of the latest directive the requirement for verification is only going to grow.

Please note that the verification request is not only made if fraud or ML is suspected but is required as soon as any number of flags are triggered. Players must please keep in mind that when documents are requested we are not accusing them of anything untoward, we are simply meeting our AML requirements. We could lose our license if we cannot produce the required documentation for the regulators if a trigger has been activated.

Please follow VWM's advice and have the correct documentation available as it is only a matter of time before most of you will be asked by a casino for verification documents and possibly to have them notarized.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

[kernow]

Originally Posted by catrina m

If I ever get asked for notarized documents I will ABSOLUTELY quit gambling online. FOREVER

I wouldn't do that, just don't play at casinos that have a bad rep for demanding notarized docs

Originally Posted by thisisvegas

I really don't see our policies different than others from Microgaming, Playtech, and Real Time Gaming. The bottom line is if you don't like the terms and conditions then just don't play. Most places reserve the right to ask for docs/ID and this is done for numerous reasons but mostly in the name of fraud prevention.
If anybody has a real issue with this maybe you can PAB on it.

John

I think my account was "flagged" because I logged in from more than one country at different times. This has indeed caused some concern at other software providers' casinos but I have never been asked for notarized documents. I am ready and gladly willing to supply any quantity of other documents that I can do with screenshots or scans from my own home and without cost. But asking for notarized docs for a $400 withdrawal? Come on! What kind of big fraud operation takes away $400 INCLUDING the original deposit!?

As you say, I just won't play at this software provider/group of casinos/regulatory authority again - EVER.

That's the beauty of all UK/EU regulated casinos - there is a solid regulatory base, unlike the various specs-in-the-ocean bodies.

Originally Posted by chuchu59

On the Notarized docs, it is only suspected fraud. If this proves to be true, fine and dandy and you may even confiscate the balances in the accounts. However, what happens if you screwed up and there is no fraud involved. Would you be paying back the fees for acquiring the notarized docs as the suspicion proves to be unfounded.

A nice angle! Yes, I would not have nearly so much of a problem with it were that the case.


As far as the comments from the CM team go: where should I go from here?
I'm in the UK - is taking a colour photocopy of my driving license to a bank and getting them to stamp it enough? What exactly does notarizing documents entail?
Also, should I PAB about it, as thisisvegas keeps truculently suggesting?

[kernow]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

Getting documents notarised in the UK should not normally be expensive, but you have to know where to go. A solicitor will usually charge a fortune, but their are cheaper ways, such as a "swearer of oaths" (Notary), who will charge around £5 per page/copy. The Notary will photocopy the document, and then attach a seal to signify they have "Notarised" it. ONLY where a request for NOTARISED documents has been made, does a photo become relevant, as the Notary will have the opportunity to meet the applicant in person, and can notarise that the photo on the document matches the applicant.

Thanks for the comment! How do I get in touch with a swearer of oaths? (sounds like someone from the middle ages! I guess I am playing at DaVinci's Gold...)

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

You can cash out coins, but in most cases it's a cash receipt which you need to bring to the cashier. No biggie - no ID.

But if your winnings are $1000 plus, then expect to produce your passport of DL, and you'll be signing forms from the US IRS.

My winnings are $400 - so I wouldn't even be ID'd by a Vegas casino? This really is rather rich behaviour in that case.

[kernow]

(I am getting this error each time I try to PAB: "Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing or mismatched.")